Solar Panels - why bother?
Discussion
I am waiting to accept that i must have missed something but after doing some research the average ROI time for an average install is around 85 years?
So, forgetting all the tree hugging stuff for a sec, why would anyone bother, for a saving of £70 per YEAR on their electricity bill?
Please tell me i have this wrong. anyone got any real world figures of their own install?
So, forgetting all the tree hugging stuff for a sec, why would anyone bother, for a saving of £70 per YEAR on their electricity bill?
Please tell me i have this wrong. anyone got any real world figures of their own install?
fatboy b said:
I'm with you. They ruin the look of houses, and are an eyesore to neighbours. I also have a theory that those who fit them are at the back of the queue when it comes to buying a round 
Sounds about right.
Building my own house now. Putting a lot of effort into the design and build, not to be spoilt by these unsightly eyesores.
Interesting, and timely. I've been watching work on a house near me where they now have massive solar panels fitted front and rear. It's true that the house faces roughly east-west, so will see the sun for a few hours early in the morning, and later in the afternoon (but not at all during much of the day) but there's also very tall trees partly blocking the sun out in the afternoons (except June/July).
I can just about see some logic if you install solar panels on just one roof, as your house faces south, but if you're east-west and you put it on two sides the cost must be ridiculous.
What sort of costs are these things supplied and fitted for a traditional house roof ?
I can just about see some logic if you install solar panels on just one roof, as your house faces south, but if you're east-west and you put it on two sides the cost must be ridiculous.
What sort of costs are these things supplied and fitted for a traditional house roof ?
Robertj21a said:
Interesting, and timely.
We've just had an offer accepted on a bungalow that will need almost total renovation so its why i started looking into it - while the place is stripped bare, having a full re-wire and relocation of the consumer unit it would make sense but not if i won't see a financial benefit in my lifetime!I've never understood it when anyone finds solar panels an eyesore. Big vans half parked on pavements, a fridge left on someone front garden, hideous sore-thumb extensions that don't blend in, rubbish in the street: they are eyesores!
I guess others have more delicate constitutions when it comes to tiles v solar!
Anyway, we are in our eighth year of PV ownership (on the back of our place, so hopefully not offending too many here. Payback on ours will be under 10 years. I know we got in 'lucky' with the early higher KWH payments, but I am pretty certain the price of panels has also dropped dramatically since we installed (4kwh system for about £13k).
So if you do not expect to be there for about 10 years, you will likely not benefit financially.
I reckon we use about 25-30% less electricity than before, so we are helping save the planet ....but this is PH, & clearly that is not a big win here!!
I guess others have more delicate constitutions when it comes to tiles v solar!
Anyway, we are in our eighth year of PV ownership (on the back of our place, so hopefully not offending too many here. Payback on ours will be under 10 years. I know we got in 'lucky' with the early higher KWH payments, but I am pretty certain the price of panels has also dropped dramatically since we installed (4kwh system for about £13k).
So if you do not expect to be there for about 10 years, you will likely not benefit financially.
I reckon we use about 25-30% less electricity than before, so we are helping save the planet ....but this is PH, & clearly that is not a big win here!!
mikeiow said:
I've never understood it when anyone finds solar panels an eyesore. Big vans half parked on pavements, a fridge left on someone front garden, hideous sore-thumb extensions that don't blend in, rubbish in the street: they are eyesores!
I guess others have more delicate constitutions when it comes to tiles v solar!
Anyway, we are in our eighth year of PV ownership (on the back of our place, so hopefully not offending too many here. Payback on ours will be under 10 years. I know we got in 'lucky' with the early higher KWH payments, but I am pretty certain the price of panels has also dropped dramatically since we installed (4kwh system for about £13k).
So if you do not expect to be there for about 10 years, you will likely not benefit financially.
I reckon we use about 25-30% less electricity than before, so we are helping save the planet ....but this is PH, & clearly that is not a big win here!!
For the record, and i am the OP, i don't find them an eyesore - my only concern was how long it would take to see any benefit (apart from the carbon footprint bit.) i could not believe that sites were quoting savings of just £70 a year on electricity.. you saying you generate 30% of your total requirements?I guess others have more delicate constitutions when it comes to tiles v solar!
Anyway, we are in our eighth year of PV ownership (on the back of our place, so hopefully not offending too many here. Payback on ours will be under 10 years. I know we got in 'lucky' with the early higher KWH payments, but I am pretty certain the price of panels has also dropped dramatically since we installed (4kwh system for about £13k).
So if you do not expect to be there for about 10 years, you will likely not benefit financially.
I reckon we use about 25-30% less electricity than before, so we are helping save the planet ....but this is PH, & clearly that is not a big win here!!
A 4kW PV sytem, on a south-ish facing roof will generate around 3800kWh per year.
You'll get paid 4.2p FIT for every unit you generate for 20 years = £160
You'll also get paid 4.85p for export for half of you generation regardless whether you use it or not = £90
You'll also use around 40% of your generation yourself meaning you don't have to buy it saving another 12-15p @12p = £230 you can increase savings by managing usage to generation so things like dishwasher, drier, washing machine etc running during the the daytime.
The install cost would be around £5k and all the above payments rise with inflation so payback should be around 10 years. More importantly longer term is that you've eliminated 40-50% of your electricity bill for the next 20-25 years.
PM me if you'd like a detailed spreadsheet showing actual generation predictions for your location, costs, payback, panel degradation over time and factoring maintenance costs.
Edited to add, I'm not trying to sell you a system - I only teach the subject.
You'll get paid 4.2p FIT for every unit you generate for 20 years = £160
You'll also get paid 4.85p for export for half of you generation regardless whether you use it or not = £90
You'll also use around 40% of your generation yourself meaning you don't have to buy it saving another 12-15p @12p = £230 you can increase savings by managing usage to generation so things like dishwasher, drier, washing machine etc running during the the daytime.
The install cost would be around £5k and all the above payments rise with inflation so payback should be around 10 years. More importantly longer term is that you've eliminated 40-50% of your electricity bill for the next 20-25 years.
PM me if you'd like a detailed spreadsheet showing actual generation predictions for your location, costs, payback, panel degradation over time and factoring maintenance costs.
Edited to add, I'm not trying to sell you a system - I only teach the subject.
Edited by 4Q on Sunday 19th February 09:30
One thing that's always bothered me - what if the roof itself needs some attention/repair. Can these panels be easily removed/replaced by anybody ? What if the panels are damaged ? Are different systems/manufacturers consistent (i.e to an agreed standard) so that if one company goes bust in 5 years time there's still a similar unit available when needed ?
4Q said:
A 4kW PV sytem, on a south-ish facing roof will generate around 3800kWh per year.
You'll get paid 4.2p FIT for every unit you generate for 20 years = £160
You'll also get paid 4.85p for export for half of you generation regardless whether you use it or not = £90
You'll also use around 40% of your generation yourself meaning you don't have to buy it saving another 12-15p @12p = £230 you can increase savings by managing usage to generation so things like dishwasher, drier, washing machine etc running during the the daytime.
The install cost would be around £5k and all the above payments rise with inflation so payback should be around 10 years. More importantly longer term is that you've eliminated 40-50% of your electricity bill for the next 20-25 years.
PM me if you'd like a detailed spreadsheet showing actual generation predictions for your location, costs, payback, panel degradation over time and factoring maintenance costs.
Edited to add, I'm not trying to sell you a system - I only teach the subject.
Am I right in saying there's not a single penny "saved" until the day the original investment has been paid off? IE. subscribers are in fact paying for their electricity ten years up front?You'll get paid 4.2p FIT for every unit you generate for 20 years = £160
You'll also get paid 4.85p for export for half of you generation regardless whether you use it or not = £90
You'll also use around 40% of your generation yourself meaning you don't have to buy it saving another 12-15p @12p = £230 you can increase savings by managing usage to generation so things like dishwasher, drier, washing machine etc running during the the daytime.
The install cost would be around £5k and all the above payments rise with inflation so payback should be around 10 years. More importantly longer term is that you've eliminated 40-50% of your electricity bill for the next 20-25 years.
PM me if you'd like a detailed spreadsheet showing actual generation predictions for your location, costs, payback, panel degradation over time and factoring maintenance costs.
Edited to add, I'm not trying to sell you a system - I only teach the subject.
Edited by 4Q on Sunday 19th February 09:30
PS. I've never been any good at sums!!
4Q said:
A 4kW PV sytem, on a south-ish facing roof will generate around 3800kWh per year.
You'll get paid 4.2p FIT for every unit you generate for 20 years = £160
You'll also get paid 4.85p for export for half of you generation regardless whether you use it or not = £90
You'll also use around 40% of your generation yourself meaning you don't have to buy it saving another 12-15p @12p = £230 you can increase savings by managing usage to generation so things like dishwasher, drier, washing machine etc running during the the daytime.
The install cost would be around £5k and all the above payments rise with inflation so payback should be around 10 years. More importantly longer term is that you've eliminated 40-50% of your electricity bill for the next 20-25 years.
PM me if you'd like a detailed spreadsheet showing actual generation predictions for your location, costs, payback, panel degradation over time and factoring maintenance costs.
Edited to add, I'm not trying to sell you a system - I only teach the subject.
Such a good response - thank you. if the sale goes through ok (fingers crossed) ill get some proper info like roof angle and coverage area and send it over if you don't mind...? You'll get paid 4.2p FIT for every unit you generate for 20 years = £160
You'll also get paid 4.85p for export for half of you generation regardless whether you use it or not = £90
You'll also use around 40% of your generation yourself meaning you don't have to buy it saving another 12-15p @12p = £230 you can increase savings by managing usage to generation so things like dishwasher, drier, washing machine etc running during the the daytime.
The install cost would be around £5k and all the above payments rise with inflation so payback should be around 10 years. More importantly longer term is that you've eliminated 40-50% of your electricity bill for the next 20-25 years.
PM me if you'd like a detailed spreadsheet showing actual generation predictions for your location, costs, payback, panel degradation over time and factoring maintenance costs.
Edited to add, I'm not trying to sell you a system - I only teach the subject.
Edited by 4Q on Sunday 19th February 09:30
dickymint said:
Am I right in saying there's not a single penny "saved" until the day the original investment has been paid off? IE. subscribers are in fact paying for their electricity ten years up front?
PS. I've never been any good at sums!!
You could use the same arguement with insulation or energy saving light bulbs, even pensions, or as we're on a car forum by paying extra for a more economical car. You'll get actual payments quarterly in arrears for FIT and export along with a reduction on your bill. I'm not sure why there is such negativity about some technologies? If someone was selling a black box which covered the cost of your energy bill for the next 20 years you'd snap their hand off at £5k! PS. I've never been any good at sums!!
The only time it ever made a vague degree of sense was when the subsidy/FIT was big, so it was worth it for the person getting the cash though not for the population as a whole.
These days not so much.
Of course it made sense if you were selling the kit or like various neighbours you were milking subsidy by building solar farms.
As an engineering solution at house scale it doesn't make huge sense if you can get mains power instead, unless you have ground space, access to cheap panels and knock together a storage system for pennies.
Personally I went solar for the shed because it was a cheap workable solution at that scale compared to running a supply in. For a house it isn't worth it.
PS. Do the long term calculations for ROI people have made take into account the loss of performance of the panels with time and ongoing maintenance of the aging equipment at 10/15/20 years. A lot of it is going to suffer badly as it was hardly premium kit to begin with.
These days not so much.
Of course it made sense if you were selling the kit or like various neighbours you were milking subsidy by building solar farms.
As an engineering solution at house scale it doesn't make huge sense if you can get mains power instead, unless you have ground space, access to cheap panels and knock together a storage system for pennies.
Personally I went solar for the shed because it was a cheap workable solution at that scale compared to running a supply in. For a house it isn't worth it.
PS. Do the long term calculations for ROI people have made take into account the loss of performance of the panels with time and ongoing maintenance of the aging equipment at 10/15/20 years. A lot of it is going to suffer badly as it was hardly premium kit to begin with.
A few years ago we were renting via the Local Authority and they were asking for tenants who would be happy to have solar panels installed. All applicants went into a ballot and as our bungalow at the time was in a good location (south and south west facing back garden), we were able to apply. We were successful in the ballot and had them fitted, they literally covered 75% of the roof and I'll be honest, I noted no difference whatsoever in the cost/usage of our electric. We didn't have to pay anything for them, any electric left over was for the benefit of the Local Authority and our benefit was the 'reduction' in energy bills.
[quote=dickymint]
Am I right in saying there's not a single penny "saved" until the day the original investment has been paid off? IE. subscribers are in fact paying for their electricity ten years up front?
PS. I've never been any good at sums!!
[/quote]
I would agree with that statement: until the break even point is reached, more has been spent than saved.
Having said that, I could see how people would consider the cost of PV as a "sunk" cost (ie hust an ancillary part of a wider redevelopment funded by borrowing or savings) whereas the reduced electricity costs will be seen as a day to day savings you can be smug about to at dinner parties
If it wasn't for the issues around the resources needed to make PV panels (precious metals? rare earth?) then I would be in favour of them a lot more, to the point of making them compulsory on relevant new builds without the bribes.
But as has been pointed out, it annoys me when people"loose sight" of the overall environmental impact when chasing some marginal environmental improvement.
Eg creation of a whole new car to replace a perfectly good one that's doing 9 mpg less. Buy a new car because you want one: fine. Just don't pretend it's for environmental reasons.
Ian
Am I right in saying there's not a single penny "saved" until the day the original investment has been paid off? IE. subscribers are in fact paying for their electricity ten years up front?
PS. I've never been any good at sums!!
[/q
uote]I would agree with that statement: until the break even point is reached, more has been spent than saved.
Having said that, I could see how people would consider the cost of PV as a "sunk" cost (ie hust an ancillary part of a wider redevelopment funded by borrowing or savings) whereas the reduced electricity costs will be seen as a day to day savings you can be smug about to at dinner parties
If it wasn't for the issues around the resources needed to make PV panels (precious metals? rare earth?) then I would be in favour of them a lot more, to the point of making them compulsory on relevant new builds without the bribes.
But as has been pointed out, it annoys me when people"loose sight" of the overall environmental impact when chasing some marginal environmental improvement.
Eg creation of a whole new car to replace a perfectly good one that's doing 9 mpg less. Buy a new car because you want one: fine. Just don't pretend it's for environmental reasons.
Ian
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