Solar Panels - why bother?

[PixelpeepS3]

julian64 said:

kapiteinlangzaam said:

julian64 said:

5ohmustang said:

My hat is off to you sir, looks great. Details/photos on the battery bank/inverter/charge controller?

Are you blind, that's knocked about 20K off the value of his house in 'hideousness'

Dont be a 'tard.

Out of you and me who d'ya think is in the majority when saying its an eyesore and will affect his house price?

unlike you, ill speak for myself. If i went to view a house and the owner said to me 'you'll save roughly 40% off your energy bills and you can have free electric during the summer, you might even get some money back as well' i wouldn't care if my entire roof was a jimmy savile shrine

[julian64]

PixelpeepS3 said:

unlike you, ill speak for myself. If i went to view a house and the owner said to me 'you'll save roughly 40% off your energy bills and you can have free electric during the summer, you might even get some money back as well' i wouldn't care if my entire roof was a jimmy savile shrine

Well on the basis you have no regard to what your house looks like either for yourself or your neighbours, then good luck, but I wouldn't want to live next to you.

This is starting to sound more and more like the council thread.

[Paul Drawmer]

julian64 said:

Are you blind, that's knocked about 20K off the value of his house in 'hideousness'

It is fortunate that we are all entitled to our own opinion, and I happen to disagree with you about this.

I am not a property professional, and you may well be; please can you evidence your claim that the value of the property will be reduced by the addition of solar PV roof panels?

[hyphen]

julian64 said:

Are you blind, that's knocked about 20K off the value of his house in 'hideousness'

It is not in keeping with the normal look of the property, but not sure if most buyers would be deterred if was already there. But in term of kerb appeal and projecting an image of its occupants as overly thrifty, I do have to agree.

[Venom]

There is no empirical evidence to support these claims at all, just conjecture.

It may be that he would only pay £20k less asking for that house, but unless he was the only buyer in the market, the vendor would be stupid to sell on that basis.

[Chris Type R]

kuro said:

Same here, the previous owners had just got the point of recouping their investment and we are getting the benefits. I didn't take much notice of it all when buying the house and was pleasantly surprised when we started getting the payments.

I'd not have paid any extra for a house with panels... so my feeling is that they effectively came for free. A pleasant bonus.

It would not surprise me to find that the previous (elderly) owners were taken advantage of. There were other far more effective ways to spend the capital and reduce energy cost / raise property values e.g. replacement windows and doors/ better loft insulation.

[PixelpeepS3]

julian64 said:

PixelpeepS3 said:

unlike you, ill speak for myself. If i went to view a house and the owner said to me 'you'll save roughly 40% off your energy bills and you can have free electric during the summer, you might even get some money back as well' i wouldn't care if my entire roof was a jimmy savile shrine

Well on the basis you have no regard to what your house looks like either for yourself or your neighbours, then good luck, but I wouldn't want to live next to you.

This is starting to sound more and more like the council thread.

Quite the opposite - if something makes financial sense why would what it looked like bother you?

Have you ever thought that not everyone finds them an eyesore - its not like they are football flags or washing draped over the roof is it - they are there to be functional not as a cosmetic addition

[hyphen]

PixelpeepS3 said:

Quite the opposite - if something makes financial sense why would what it looked like bother you?

Hey, want to swap your S3 for my Kia Picanto? It has 7 years free servicing, better MPG and will save you a packet.

[Jonesy23]

Jambo85 said:

I think the word 'probably' is the issue there! Government backed subsidy linked to inflation is as close to risk-free as things get surely?

The income is tax free, unless it has changed recently.

The only thing Government backed that is (almost) risk free are things like gilts.

Subsidies are only ever at most a properly drafted bit of legislation away from being binned.

Though it's the plebs that are funding these subsidies via their bills not the Treasury so no one is likely to bother going to the effort.

[PixelpeepS3]

hyphen said:

PixelpeepS3 said:

Quite the opposite - if something makes financial sense why would what it looked like bother you?

Hey, want to swap your S3 for my Kia Picanto? It has 7 years free servicing, better MPG and will save you a packet.

nice try - i don't care what the car looks like, i care what it goes like :-)

S3 was a combination of good performance at a good price.

[dickymint]

Jonesy23 said:

Subsidies are only ever at most a properly drafted bit of legislation away from being binned.

Yep. And a Sunshine or roof tax could easily swallow up the subsidy

[mikeiow]

PixelpeepS3 said:

For the record, and i am the OP, i don't find them an eyesore - my only concern was how long it would take to see any benefit (apart from the carbon footprint bit.) i could not believe that sites were quoting savings of just £70 a year on electricity.. you saying you generate 30% of your total requirements?

I'm saying that before our solar panels, we spent about £900 pa on electricity...& now spend round £600. (actually after year 1 I see it was £850 before, £570 after, but we are a 7 years on now!)

Robertj21a said:

One thing that's always bothered me - what if the roof itself needs some attention/repair. Can these panels be easily removed/replaced by anybody ? What if the panels are damaged ? Are different systems/manufacturers consistent (i.e to an agreed standard) so that if one company goes bust in 5 years time there's still a similar unit available when needed ?

Pretty sure there are only a few volume manufacturers of panels, if any problems arise. I was led to believe it is more likely the inverters that can cause issues....but (touch wood) all fine here so far. Now we have a sunroom at the back with an "orangery" style roof, it is pretty easy for me to get up on top and hose down the panels to wash them, but frankly last summer was the first time I have done that & we have consistently generated between 3,100 and 3,460KWh for the past 6 years.

4Q said:

A 4kW PV system, on a south-ish facing roof will generate around 3800kWh per year.

You'll get paid 4.2p FIT for every unit you generate for 20 years = £160
You'll also get paid 4.85p for export for half of you generation regardless whether you use it or not = £90
You'll also use around 40% of your generation yourself meaning you don't have to buy it saving another 12-15p @12p = £230 you can increase savings by managing usage to generation so things like dishwasher, drier, washing machine etc running during the the daytime.

The install cost would be around £5k and all the above payments rise with inflation so payback should be around 10 years. More importantly longer term is that you've eliminated 40-50% of your electricity bill for the next 20-25 years.

Good detail there - I think 3800kWh may be a struggle - ours is directly south-facing & not overlooked, I'd suggest 3,300 as an average.
Must admit, I didn't realise the FIT payments had dropped quite so dramatically. I doubt the panels have dropped by anywhere near the same %, so I can see why it would be a hard-sell to deploy today.

King Herald said:

I was under the impression that modern panels don't really need direct sunshine, just daylight?

Or is that just sales hype?

I think that is right....& indeed a REALLY hot sunny day may not be the best for producing, so far as I can tell....

Borroxs said:

THere are fields full of them around here. Hideous blight on the countryside.

The army is building a new housing estate about 2 miles away from here, every house with a southerly roof has a solar panel fitted, which I assume is just enough to blunt the electric bill a little bit. Looks ok, looks like the roofs have Dormo windows in the middle frankly.

People who say they pay for themselves after 10 years or so - are they ignoring the fact that if they took their 25k upfront costs and invested it in the stock market their 25k would (probably) grow in value and return an income from dividends?

And when you start making an income from them, do you have to declare this on your self assessment?

Clearly everyone is entitled to their opinion.....can't say I see the occasional fields of panels a "blight", & I still don't see why they make houses look desperately bad, but each to their own. Having spent yesterday walking quite close to some large turbines, panels are a darned sight quieter!

I think ALL new-builds should have some solar deployed as a matter of course....then we can start making bigger dents in energy generation needs. Although I take on board that the panels don't build themselves: it is a complex topic! Maybe GSHP would be a better thing to insist on....

My ROI modelling does take into account a basic 2% annual return I could be getting....clearly stock markets *could* do better....or *could* do worse! Basic payback for when we got ours is between 7.5-9 years depending on what you include, but with the current FIT I can see that take longer for any new buyers. We will inevitably be here 10+ years, so I am happy we made the right decision.

Hope this helps.

[Jambo85]

Jonesy23 said:

Jambo85 said:

I think the word 'probably' is the issue there! Government backed subsidy linked to inflation is as close to risk-free as things get surely?

The income is tax free, unless it has changed recently.

The only thing Government backed that is (almost) risk free are things like gilts.

Subsidies are only ever at most a properly drafted bit of legislation away from being binned.

If you say so. I personally think the chances of that happening are lower than of a stockmarket crash within 20 years.

Anyway - surprised not to see this nugget discussed more often - another reason that some people are benefiting more than initially thought, and why bills are going up for everyone else:

http://www.which.co.uk/reviews/feed-in-tariffs/art...

[4Q]

King Herald said:

I was under the impression that modern panels don't really need direct sunshine, just daylight?

Or is that just sales hype?

It's not sales hype - its an outright lie!! Panels not only need light but also for there to be energy in that light (irradiance)
Actual performance is a mixture of;
Orientation to sun at peak energy hours - pitch and degrees south,
Light levels AND irradiance - a bright summers day will give around 1000W/m2 a bright winters day maybe 100W/m2,
Geographical location - a house in Scotland (Zone 14) with roof facing south at 38 degree pitch will give you 834kWh per kW installed per annum whereas a house in Brighton (zone 3) will give you 1023kWh per kW installed per annum.
Temperature of the modules - you lose some yield if the panel gets hot which is why they are better mounted slight up from the roof rather than integrated and also why completely black panels don't perform as well as one's with a silver back sheet
Panel type does come into it a little but unless you're buying hybrid modules then they have little noticeable effect over 12 month period.

Edited by 4Q on Monday 20th February 14:19

[Robertj21a]

At least this thread has helped me decide for the future.

Personally, I doubt that it's a sensible financial outlay - nowadays. Most of them also look fairly ghastly and would certainly deter me from buying a property with them already on. I'm also less than convinced that any repairs/spares will be easily obtainable in future years.

Naturally, many others will disagree !

[5ohmustang]

julian64 said:

Are you blind, that's knocked about 20K off the value of his house in 'hideousness'

It also makes him not a slave to the utility company. I didn't quite read if it is still grid tied but in my personal opinion that looks great.

Kappa, thanks for the exact component listing I am going to look them up. I think the price sounds about right especially with the install included. Do you have an ac system on your house or houses in the Netherlands don't need it?

[pterodroma]

Jambo85 said:

If you say so. I personally think the chances of that happening are lower than of a stockmarket crash within 20 years.

Anyway - surprised not to see this nugget discussed more often - another reason that some people are benefiting more than initially thought, and why bills are going up for everyone else:

http://www.which.co.uk/reviews/feed-in-tariffs/art...

My meter (very occasionally) ran backwards for a while, until it broke. Chap who came to fit the new meter claimed it was pretty common. We were never chased for the assumed difference.

[karona]

Youtube explanation of the issues with solar, after 18 months in use, and another vid of the installation process.
(Apologies for the most annoying voice on the internet, ever)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gq0f6FXjyMk&t=...

[tankplanker]

I'm still planning on getting solar, a storage battery and the water heating system but I'm waiting for Tesla's solar tiles (much nicer looking that panels) to hit mass market availability and pricing in the UK. https://www.tesla.com/solar

I'm hoping that prices will drop further, batteries and solar have been getting cheaper so it'll fit into a reasonable budget for me to mean I get a good return over the lifetime of the panels. A battery should mean I get max usage out of the energy I generate each day. Couple that with econ7 for charging a (future) electric vehicle overnight and I'll be making decent savings years 10 to 20...

[dickymint]

tankplanker said:

I'm still planning on getting solar, a storage battery and the water heating system but I'm waiting for Tesla's solar tiles (much nicer looking that panels) to hit mass market availability and pricing in the UK. https://www.tesla.com/solar

I'm hoping that prices will drop further, batteries and solar have been getting cheaper so it'll fit into a reasonable budget for me to mean I get a good return over the lifetime of the panels. A battery should mean I get max usage out of the energy I generate each day. Couple that with econ7 for charging a (future) electric vehicle overnight and I'll be making decent savings years 10 to 20...

Wouldn't build your hopes up that Tesla will ever sell anything "to hit mass market availability"