Planning law....with enough funds can you ever lose?
Discussion
I'm feeling a little down hearted with the planning authorities/councils seeming lack of power when it comes to planning enforcement.
Example 1) Local land owner, farmer and aggregates emperor decides he wants to move his farm 500 yards, so that its on top of the hill - making it a larger group of buildings in the process and building a new farm house overlooking a grade 2 listed property etc. Despite protests from the residents, (only 10 other houses in a 3 mile radius, so our clout is limited) parish council, EA etc - planning is granted. Conditions stipulate he ceases to operate the old farm and does not cart hardcore on to the site from his other business interests. (Plus numerous other considerations)
All of the conditions were flouted, he even had an access road built in the wrong postion (by 'accident')....The local planning have said they cannot afford to fight him or take him to court.
Example 2) Haulage and concrete company purchased a local farm yard - previously this site was used as the base for an agricultural maintenance/drainage firm. This firm had one HGV which made 2 movements a week (out on a monday, return on a friday). New owner now has 8 HGVs (artics transporting 30t+ concrete slabs) making upto movements a day, and of course is also producing concrete on site too. They have had their retrospective planning application denied, but continue to appeal - wanting at least 12months to consider alternative solutions etc etc. Again, council/planning seem powerless to stop them.
I'm not a NIMBY - my other neighbours have a fleet of attack/transport helicopters + other kit
However, the roads here are very narrow with few passing places and are disintergrating under the weight of traffic - not to mention the issues with verge errosion and the danger to rest of us who drive/run/walk/cycle or ride.
Am I mad, is there nothing more that can be done? It seems if you can pay for appeals or continual 'new' applications then there is no power that can stop you.
//end rant//
Example 1) Local land owner, farmer and aggregates emperor decides he wants to move his farm 500 yards, so that its on top of the hill - making it a larger group of buildings in the process and building a new farm house overlooking a grade 2 listed property etc. Despite protests from the residents, (only 10 other houses in a 3 mile radius, so our clout is limited) parish council, EA etc - planning is granted. Conditions stipulate he ceases to operate the old farm and does not cart hardcore on to the site from his other business interests. (Plus numerous other considerations)
All of the conditions were flouted, he even had an access road built in the wrong postion (by 'accident')....The local planning have said they cannot afford to fight him or take him to court.
Example 2) Haulage and concrete company purchased a local farm yard - previously this site was used as the base for an agricultural maintenance/drainage firm. This firm had one HGV which made 2 movements a week (out on a monday, return on a friday). New owner now has 8 HGVs (artics transporting 30t+ concrete slabs) making upto movements a day, and of course is also producing concrete on site too. They have had their retrospective planning application denied, but continue to appeal - wanting at least 12months to consider alternative solutions etc etc. Again, council/planning seem powerless to stop them.
I'm not a NIMBY - my other neighbours have a fleet of attack/transport helicopters + other kit
However, the roads here are very narrow with few passing places and are disintergrating under the weight of traffic - not to mention the issues with verge errosion and the danger to rest of us who drive/run/walk/cycle or ride.Am I mad, is there nothing more that can be done? It seems if you can pay for appeals or continual 'new' applications then there is no power that can stop you.
//end rant//
There has to be a genuine planning reason to refuse an application, not just a planning consideration, or that somebody just doesn't like what somebody else is proposing.
Being fair, there are far more pressures on Planning Authorities today than there ever used to be, the very real need to support developments which maintain or increase employment opportunities, developments that help meet the governments targets for housing, amongst many other pressures which slacken the planners resolve. This is also countered by an often mobile and empowered group of objectors meaning decisions are often seen as being much more contentious than ever before.
As for the suggestion that you can never lose a planning process if you have enough funds, the reality is that when you have supporters and objectors, there will always be a loser.
Being fair, there are far more pressures on Planning Authorities today than there ever used to be, the very real need to support developments which maintain or increase employment opportunities, developments that help meet the governments targets for housing, amongst many other pressures which slacken the planners resolve. This is also countered by an often mobile and empowered group of objectors meaning decisions are often seen as being much more contentious than ever before.
As for the suggestion that you can never lose a planning process if you have enough funds, the reality is that when you have supporters and objectors, there will always be a loser.
Yes, you CAN lose - regardless of relative funds. It's all about how far TPTB want to push it.
Fine example : Honeycrock(ofs
t) Farm.
http://www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/surrey-news/hidden...
https://goo.gl/maps/TNGajxKRXYw
Fine example : Honeycrock(ofs
t) Farm.http://www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/surrey-news/hidden...
https://goo.gl/maps/TNGajxKRXYw
Here's an example: a village pub came up for sale and was bought by a developer. The developer didn't put any effort into running the pub as a going concern and, much to the chagrin of villagers, it closed.
The developer submitted a planning application to demolish it and build nine houses on the site. Against the advice of planning officers and under considerable pressure from villagers, councillors voted to refuse the application which went to appeal.
Planning inpector came and public meeting was held, lots of villagers attended and blathered on about loss of ammenity, detrimental impact on village life etc. etc. The appeal was upheld, the re-development went ahead.
Fighting the appeal (an obviously futile fight) cost the council £75,000 of public money. Developers have councils by the balls, every time.
The developer submitted a planning application to demolish it and build nine houses on the site. Against the advice of planning officers and under considerable pressure from villagers, councillors voted to refuse the application which went to appeal.
Planning inpector came and public meeting was held, lots of villagers attended and blathered on about loss of ammenity, detrimental impact on village life etc. etc. The appeal was upheld, the re-development went ahead.
Fighting the appeal (an obviously futile fight) cost the council £75,000 of public money. Developers have councils by the balls, every time.
TooMany2cvs said:
Yes, you CAN lose - regardless of relative funds. It's all about how far TPTB want to push it.
Fine example : Honeycrock(ofst) Farm.
http://www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/surrey-news/hidden...
https://goo.gl/maps/TNGajxKRXYw
He lost that because he tried to be too clever by hiding the development. That's a perfect example of the planning process working well IMHO.Fine example : Honeycrock(ofs
t) Farm.http://www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/surrey-news/hidden...
https://goo.gl/maps/TNGajxKRXYw
The Surveyor said:
TooMany2cvs said:
Yes, you CAN lose - regardless of relative funds. It's all about how far TPTB want to push it.
Fine example : Honeycrock(ofst) Farm.
http://www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/surrey-news/hidden...
https://goo.gl/maps/TNGajxKRXYw
He lost that because he tried to be too clever by hiding the development. That's a perfect example of the planning process working well IMHO.Fine example : Honeycrock(ofs
t) Farm.http://www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/surrey-news/hidden...
https://goo.gl/maps/TNGajxKRXYw
He used the obfuscation to try to avoid the planning process completely. When he lost that one, he was required to apply retrospectively, lost - and then appealed as high as it could possibly go.
OP - you should move to where I live. The local planning department pretty much allow anything to be built.
Their current excuse is that they haven't adopted the latest local plan. Therefore, the old plan is deemed too old and 'out of date', so building is going on everywhere.
Quite a joke, but what can you do eh?
Their current excuse is that they haven't adopted the latest local plan. Therefore, the old plan is deemed too old and 'out of date', so building is going on everywhere.
Quite a joke, but what can you do eh?
BrettMRC said:
I'm feeling a little down hearted with the planning authorities/councils seeming lack of power when it comes to planning enforcement.
Example 1) Local land owner, farmer and aggregates emperor decides he wants to move his farm 500 yards, so that its on top of the hill - making it a larger group of buildings in the process and building a new farm house overlooking a grade 2 listed property etc. Despite protests from the residents, (only 10 other houses in a 3 mile radius, so our clout is limited) parish council, EA etc - planning is granted. Conditions stipulate he ceases to operate the old farm and does not cart hardcore on to the site from his other business interests. (Plus numerous other considerations)
All of the conditions were flouted, he even had an access road built in the wrong postion (by 'accident')....The local planning have said they cannot afford to fight him or take him to court.
Example 2) Haulage and concrete company purchased a local farm yard - previously this site was used as the base for an agricultural maintenance/drainage firm. This firm had one HGV which made 2 movements a week (out on a monday, return on a friday). New owner now has 8 HGVs (artics transporting 30t+ concrete slabs) making upto movements a day, and of course is also producing concrete on site too. They have had their retrospective planning application denied, but continue to appeal - wanting at least 12months to consider alternative solutions etc etc. Again, council/planning seem powerless to stop them.
I'm not a NIMBY - my other neighbours have a fleet of attack/transport helicopters + other kit However, the roads here are very narrow with few passing places and are disintergrating under the weight of traffic - not to mention the issues with verge errosion and the danger to rest of us who drive/run/walk/cycle or ride.
Am I mad, is there nothing more that can be done? It seems if you can pay for appeals or continual 'new' applications then there is no power that can stop you.
//end rant//
If haulage man has more vehicles than authorised on site, a complaint to the traffic commissioner is what you'll want to be doing. While it might not stop it, the restrictions imposed can be a pain in the backside, a read of "Commercial Motor" might give you examples.Example 1) Local land owner, farmer and aggregates emperor decides he wants to move his farm 500 yards, so that its on top of the hill - making it a larger group of buildings in the process and building a new farm house overlooking a grade 2 listed property etc. Despite protests from the residents, (only 10 other houses in a 3 mile radius, so our clout is limited) parish council, EA etc - planning is granted. Conditions stipulate he ceases to operate the old farm and does not cart hardcore on to the site from his other business interests. (Plus numerous other considerations)
All of the conditions were flouted, he even had an access road built in the wrong postion (by 'accident')....The local planning have said they cannot afford to fight him or take him to court.
Example 2) Haulage and concrete company purchased a local farm yard - previously this site was used as the base for an agricultural maintenance/drainage firm. This firm had one HGV which made 2 movements a week (out on a monday, return on a friday). New owner now has 8 HGVs (artics transporting 30t+ concrete slabs) making upto movements a day, and of course is also producing concrete on site too. They have had their retrospective planning application denied, but continue to appeal - wanting at least 12months to consider alternative solutions etc etc. Again, council/planning seem powerless to stop them.
I'm not a NIMBY - my other neighbours have a fleet of attack/transport helicopters + other kit
However, the roads here are very narrow with few passing places and are disintergrating under the weight of traffic - not to mention the issues with verge errosion and the danger to rest of us who drive/run/walk/cycle or ride.Am I mad, is there nothing more that can be done? It seems if you can pay for appeals or continual 'new' applications then there is no power that can stop you.
//end rant//
funkyrobot said:
OP - you should move to where I live. The local planning department pretty much allow anything to be built.
Their current excuse is that they haven't adopted the latest local plan. Therefore, the old plan is deemed too old and 'out of date', so building is going on everywhere.
Quite a joke, but what can you do eh?
Well, that is legally correct. The alternative would be to do what some other authorities do, which is to refuse permission if it doesn't accord with the out of date plan, then get taken to appeal and rightfully lose with costs awarded to the Appellant.Their current excuse is that they haven't adopted the latest local plan. Therefore, the old plan is deemed too old and 'out of date', so building is going on everywhere.
Quite a joke, but what can you do eh?
If the Council doesn't have a Local Plan in place that's their own fault for faffing about. Plenty of others have had theirs in place for some time now.
Swervin_Mervin said:
Well, that is legally correct. The alternative would be to do what some other authorities do, which is to refuse permission if it doesn't accord with the out of date plan, then get taken to appeal and rightfully lose with costs awarded to the Appellant.
If the Council doesn't have a Local Plan in place that's their own fault for faffing about. Plenty of others have had theirs in place for some time now.
There is a new local plan which the council haven't adopted. I can't remember the specifics, but the old one is decades old.If the Council doesn't have a Local Plan in place that's their own fault for faffing about. Plenty of others have had theirs in place for some time now.
Thing is though, they are using this excuse to allow building pretty much anywhere. I'm talking about estates with hundred or so houses plus other smaller areas with 30 - 50 houses. It doesn't seem to be in their interest to adopt the plan yet as they use it as an excuse.
Rather than a plan limiting things, it's like it's an open door policy and the council are thriving on it. Much to the annoyance of the people who live around here.
The council are benefitting from a lack of plan.
funkyrobot said:
OP - you should move to where I live. The local planning department pretty much allow anything to be built.
Their current excuse is that they haven't adopted the latest local plan. Therefore, the old plan is deemed too old and 'out of date', so building is going on everywhere.
Quite a joke, but what can you do eh?
Wow, you must live near me! Or alternatively perhaps there are a number of local authorities pulling this stunt in order to allow anything to go through! We're about to move house and it really has reached the point in my neck of the woods in East Sussex that I can't say with any confidence that currently empty greenbelt land won't be developed in the next few years. There just seems to be a huge developer land grab taking place.Their current excuse is that they haven't adopted the latest local plan. Therefore, the old plan is deemed too old and 'out of date', so building is going on everywhere.
Quite a joke, but what can you do eh?
Riley Blue said:
Here's an example: a village pub came up for sale and was bought by a developer. The developer didn't put any effort into running the pub as a going concern and, much to the chagrin of villagers, it closed.
Would that be the same villagers who maybe prevented it being a sustainable business by lack of use and support as beer is cheaper in the supermarket innit ?People don't like change.
They were going to change a localish 'pub' to a 'smokehouse restaurant' and 'all' the regulars opposed it.
A pal went in recently and said it was like a scene from deliverance.
Well we are having a new warehouse built behind my estate.
Before we moved on to the estate we check, no buildings above 2 stories to be built on adjoining industrial estate.
Application 1. 3 story ware house - rejected - hurrah
Application 2. 2 story warehouse - rejected - hurrah.
Application 3. 2 story warehouse with a bank to screen lower level - passed - boo! It's only the top level we can see so what is the point screening the lower level.
We got the feeling amended plans were just going to be submitted until they were passed.
Before we moved on to the estate we check, no buildings above 2 stories to be built on adjoining industrial estate.
Application 1. 3 story ware house - rejected - hurrah
Application 2. 2 story warehouse - rejected - hurrah.
Application 3. 2 story warehouse with a bank to screen lower level - passed - boo! It's only the top level we can see so what is the point screening the lower level.
We got the feeling amended plans were just going to be submitted until they were passed.
TooMany2cvs said:
And have those people actually done anything about it, other than gripe among themselves?
We all rejected the planning applications that we were entitled to. And I don't mean we just said 'we don't like it'. Each person gave a list of valid concerns that should be taken into account.However, as usual, the council simply ignored everything. They didn't even counter the points in the responses. Simply said we need houses, there is no local plan that we recognise, tough s
t.funkyrobot, said.
OP - you should move to where I live. The local planning department pretty much allow anything to be built.
Their current excuse is that they haven't adopted the latest local plan. Therefore, the old plan is deemed too old and 'out of date', so building is going on everywhere.
Quite a joke, but what can you do eh?
if your talking about south holland youve hit the nail on the head,
but only if your a developer building multipul houses and therefore giving the council a bung ( sorry CIL payment, ) strange how that argument doesnt apply to single developments though.
OP - you should move to where I live. The local planning department pretty much allow anything to be built.
Their current excuse is that they haven't adopted the latest local plan. Therefore, the old plan is deemed too old and 'out of date', so building is going on everywhere.
Quite a joke, but what can you do eh?
if your talking about south holland youve hit the nail on the head,
but only if your a developer building multipul houses and therefore giving the council a bung ( sorry CIL payment, ) strange how that argument doesnt apply to single developments though.
SiH said:
Wow, you must live near me! Or alternatively perhaps there are a number of local authorities pulling this stunt in order to allow anything to go through! We're about to move house and it really has reached the point in my neck of the woods in East Sussex that I can't say with any confidence that currently empty greenbelt land won't be developed in the next few years. There just seems to be a huge developer land grab taking place.
The field behind us was set out in the original local plan as buffer land. One side is industrial, the other residential. It was earmarked as a place to leave a gap between the factories and people's houses.The houses at one end (including mine) were all built in the early 1900's. We have established gardens, space between the properties (even the semi detached houses are spacious), and the nearest estate is around half a mile away.
The estate that is due to crop up is the usual cramped affair with houses on top of each other, very limited parking (eager to see how that goes down as there is nowhere suitable outside the estate to park), and will include houses that back onto a chuffing great fruit warehouse.
The roads around here already get really busy at times and as I mentioned above, there isn't anywhere suitable to place a car outside of the estate.
I feel for the chap who owns a heavy haulage business at the other end of the field. He put planning in years ago to extend his workshops. This was flatly denied with the reason that the area isn't suitable for his business to expand. Guess what though, the council are allowing the building of 167 houses. Odd that.
Also, the new estate signs went up recently. The site is called '[placename] fields'. What a joke! Tearing up a field and green area then labelling it as a field. The signs even show rolling fields. Yesh, the estate will really look like that.
Oh yes, the houses have started appearing for sale from plan too. The cheapest? £170,000. That's more than we paid for our house a few years ago. £170,000 for a house with shared parking and a garden the size of a grow bag.
funkyrobot said:
TooMany2cvs said:
And have those people actually done anything about it, other than gripe among themselves?
We all rejected the planning applications that we were entitled to. And I don't mean we just said 'we don't like it'. Each person gave a list of valid concerns that should be taken into account.However, as usual, the council simply ignored everything. They didn't even counter the points in the responses. Simply said we need houses, there is no local plan that we recognise, tough s
t.gnc said:
funkyrobot, said.
OP - you should move to where I live. The local planning department pretty much allow anything to be built.
Their current excuse is that they haven't adopted the latest local plan. Therefore, the old plan is deemed too old and 'out of date', so building is going on everywhere.
Quite a joke, but what can you do eh?
if your talking about south holland youve hit the nail on the head,
but only if your a developer building multipul houses and therefore giving the council a bung ( sorry CIL payment, ) strange how that argument doesnt apply to single developments though.
Good old South Holland eh? OP - you should move to where I live. The local planning department pretty much allow anything to be built.
Their current excuse is that they haven't adopted the latest local plan. Therefore, the old plan is deemed too old and 'out of date', so building is going on everywhere.
Quite a joke, but what can you do eh?
if your talking about south holland youve hit the nail on the head,
but only if your a developer building multipul houses and therefore giving the council a bung ( sorry CIL payment, ) strange how that argument doesnt apply to single developments though.
Good point about the single developers. I know of one small developer around here who took the council to court a few years ago. Can't remember the specific issue, but the council had messed him around and he had lost money. Despite everything stacking up in his favour, he lost.
As you say, if you are a big time multiple developer you really are in the council good books and can do no wrong. The developer that is building on the field behind us had a few issues with some houses a few years ago. A gust of wind blew out a few walls!
They didn't want to repair the damage either. Said it wasn't their fault. 
Another person I know of lives in one of their new builds. They had an issue with water pressure and leaks from the off. The developer wasn't interested. They had to get an independent engineer in who diagnosed dodgy pipe fittings.
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