Adverse possession

[Office_Monkey]

Afternoon all!

Am in the process of moving house, and the EA has just informed us that there may be an issue with adverse possession as the sellers had stopped paying a "peppercorn rent" in 1996 after the local council sold some land at the bottom of the garden to an (I think) housing association.

We're going to go to have a look at the garden with the scale drawing from the vendor's solicitor to get an idea of how much of the garden is at risk. The vendors will be signing a statutory declaration, but am wondering roughly how long these claims can take, and the likelihood of success? The land has been fenced in before 1996 and I notice all the neighbours have erected fences along the bottoms of their gardens so they are all aligned

Is there anything else we should be asking the EA/vendor/solicitor? We're not likely to pull out of the sale unless this is going to be a major ballache as the place has a lot of potential but may drop our offer

[Jobbo]

A peppercorn rent does not need to be paid in practice, so what did they stop paying? Any sort of rent implies a lease, and a leaseholder cannot claim adverse possession against the freeholder so this may be doomed to fail.

[Office_Monkey]

I believe they were paying it to the council, and stopped paying when the council sold off the land. Effectively there hasn't been any payment since 1996, and no attempts made to claim the land back by the purchaser of the land

[Jobbo]

Why was anything being paid to the council - is there an old lease of the land? And how much was actually being paid?

Sale of the land by the council and non-enforcement of payment is not enough for adverse possession if there was a lease in place.

[Vocal Minority]

As said above, was there an actual physical handover of a peppercorn?

This is important as a point, when you say a peppercorn - is that literally what the lease says 'one peppercorn' or is it a nominal sum - like £50.

Because if its the latter and there is a something to not pay, in the former there isn't really

Sorry OP - I am a little confused.

Are you able to describe the very basics from the beginning.

Who has the lease, where is it supposedly for, who stopped paying who - sorry you writing pre supposes knowledge on one or two things!

[Muncher]

The background facts here don't really make sense, could you clarify a little?

[Office_Monkey]

I suppose it does!

Unfortunately I don't have in the way of detail, the EA has told us there is a portion of the rear garden that the sellers used to pay a small peppercorn rent to the council to use. I have never come across this term before, hence asking here so will ask if there was an actual £ payment or not (thanks!)

Their solicitor has now written to ours (got an email through today) and don't give much detail other than the seller's father entered into a licence for use of the space with the council, and in 1996 the land was sold to the HA and the sellers ceased paying. They have clearly still been using the land as part of their back garden ever since.

[Muncher]

The expression a "peppercorn" rent means no rent is in practice either paid or demanded, so it is not possible to fail to pay a peppercorn rent.

[TooMany2cvs]

Office_Monkey said:

Jobbo said:

Any sort of rent implies a lease, and a leaseholder cannot claim adverse possession against the freeholder so this may be doomed to fail.

I believe they were paying it to the council, and stopped paying when the council sold off the land.

So the freeholder changed, but the lease continued to exist. The fact that the nominal rent wasn't paid doesn't mean anything much - at the outside, there's six peppercorns owed, one per year for the six years that debts are enforceable.

[Jobbo]

If there was a licence to use the land, there's no suggestion that it was occupied without permission; that is a fundamental element of adverse possession.

Basically, assume the land isn't going to be yours.

[Office_Monkey]

Cool, thanks for the help guys! We'll proceed with the view we won't get the land & see if they'll lower the asking accordingly. Have a virtual

[TA14]

Muncher said:

The expression a "peppercorn" rent means no rent is in practice either paid or demanded, so it is not possible to fail to pay a peppercorn rent.

My last house was a leaehold property with a peppercorn rent: "one peppercorn a year if demanded" with my lawyer giving me a bag of about a hundred upon completion. No peppercorns were ever demanded but I suppose that if one had been demanded and I refused to supply one I would have failed to pay a peppercorn rent.