Discussion
Cheib said:
Understand that. When I spend my capital on gas or electricity bills I can’t get my money back either. I want to lower my spending/costs which is out of my post tax income.
I’d argue you probably can get it back to some extent and generate an ROI. I think in five to ten years time houses with good energy efficient infrastructure will have a pricing differential to what you might call a legacy set up….i.e. gas central heating with an old gas boiler, s
te insulation and singe glazed windows (what we had until we installed new windows last autumn). If the investments I am making in the house mean that the house is worth a low single digit % more in ten years time then it will have been a good investment.
I realise plenty of people don’t have that view.
It will be interesting to see how in the future the market perceives the value of energy saving features. If you had two otherwise identical houses on the same street but one had better insulation, double/triple glazing, solar panels, etc the more energy efficient one would be more attractive to most buyers but how much of a price premium could it command? For most people annual energy costs are second order to the annual mortgage costs and actual energy costs between different properties are harder to objectively compare. EPCs are of little use in this regard. I’d argue you probably can get it back to some extent and generate an ROI. I think in five to ten years time houses with good energy efficient infrastructure will have a pricing differential to what you might call a legacy set up….i.e. gas central heating with an old gas boiler, s
te insulation and singe glazed windows (what we had until we installed new windows last autumn). If the investments I am making in the house mean that the house is worth a low single digit % more in ten years time then it will have been a good investment.I realise plenty of people don’t have that view.
I sold a house a few years ago that had a 4 kWp PV system generating £2500/year in FIT payments. At the time the estate agents weren't putting any sort of financial value on the panels despite the pretty much guaranteed income stream. That may well change in time.
In case I didn't make it obvious in previous posts
for me installing PV solar is purely a financial decision. But on the flip side we're contemplating spending many times more than the cost of a of a PV solar system to replace the tired cheap and cheerful timber double glazed windows and doors with alu-clad timber windows. I know full well we'll never recover the outlay but it will improve our comfort and enjoyment of the property. Go figure.I sort of equate the value of energy saving features like a well optioned second-hand car. It will add some degree of value and make it easier to sell but you'll never recoup the initial outlay.
PBCD said:
Mars said:
Well, I don't have any figures to hand but my solar woke-up from its winter slumber a few weeks ago, and my batteries are usually fully charged again by late morning. Over the last 2 weeks, I've been generating so much that it's exporting again
That's astonishing given the almost incessant rain and/or overcast days this country has been enduring recently.Are you in a part of the UK that has somehow escaped the gloomy, cloudy weather?
AW10 said:
Cheib said:
Understand that. When I spend my capital on gas or electricity bills I can’t get my money back either. I want to lower my spending/costs which is out of my post tax income.
I’d argue you probably can get it back to some extent and generate an ROI. I think in five to ten years time houses with good energy efficient infrastructure will have a pricing differential to what you might call a legacy set up….i.e. gas central heating with an old gas boiler, ste insulation and singe glazed windows (what we had until we installed new windows last autumn). If the investments I am making in the house mean that the house is worth a low single digit % more in ten years time then it will have been a good investment.
I realise plenty of people don’t have that view.
It will be interesting to see how in the future the market perceives the value of energy saving features. If you had two otherwise identical houses on the same street but one had better insulation, double/triple glazing, solar panels, etc the more energy efficient one would be more attractive to most buyers but how much of a price premium could it command? For most people annual energy costs are second order to the annual mortgage costs and actual energy costs between different properties are harder to objectively compare. EPCs are of little use in this regard. I’d argue you probably can get it back to some extent and generate an ROI. I think in five to ten years time houses with good energy efficient infrastructure will have a pricing differential to what you might call a legacy set up….i.e. gas central heating with an old gas boiler, s
te insulation and singe glazed windows (what we had until we installed new windows last autumn). If the investments I am making in the house mean that the house is worth a low single digit % more in ten years time then it will have been a good investment.I realise plenty of people don’t have that view.
I sold a house a few years ago that had a 4 kWp PV system generating £2500/year in FIT payments. At the time the estate agents weren't putting any sort of financial value on the panels despite the pretty much guaranteed income stream. That may well change in time.
In case I didn't make it obvious in previous posts
for me installing PV solar is purely a financial decision. But on the flip side we're contemplating spending many times more than the cost of a of a PV solar system to replace the tired cheap and cheerful timber double glazed windows and doors with alu-clad timber windows. I know full well we'll never recover the outlay but it will improve our comfort and enjoyment of the property. Go figure.I sort of equate the value of energy saving features like a well optioned second-hand car. It will add some degree of value and make it easier to sell but you'll never recoup the initial outlay.
PBCD said:
Mars said:
Well, I don't have any figures to hand but my solar woke-up from its winter slumber a few weeks ago, and my batteries are usually fully charged again by late morning. Over the last 2 weeks, I've been generating so much that it's exporting again
That's astonishing given the almost incessant rain and/or overcast days this country has been enduring recently.Are you in a part of the UK that has somehow escaped the gloomy, cloudy weather?
Meanwhile, the River Avon along the A44 between Evesham and Pershore is rising again.
Mars said:
It's actually quite overcast here today but despite there being no direct sunlight, there's a "brightness" all around. Generating over 4KW right now, the batteries are full, and I'm exporting 2600W to the grid..
Meanwhile, the River Avon along the A44 between Evesham and Pershore is rising again.
Your app shows more detail than my Tesla app.Meanwhile, the River Avon along the A44 between Evesham and Pershore is rising again.
Solar 1.0kW
Battery 0kW (100%)
Home 0.5kW
Grid 0.5kW (export)
Brightish sky. 100% grey cloud cover, raining.
pingu393 said:
Your app shows more detail than my Tesla app.
Solar 1.0kW
Battery 0kW (100%)
Home 0.5kW
Grid 0.5kW (export)
Brightish sky. 100% grey cloud cover, raining.
Ah, that was just the snapshot. There's more just on that screen:Solar 1.0kW
Battery 0kW (100%)
Home 0.5kW
Grid 0.5kW (export)
Brightish sky. 100% grey cloud cover, raining.
Then there's all the subsequent menus which show all sorts of graphs which I don't really understand (truth is, I haven't really *tried* to understand).
Mars said:
pingu393 said:
Your app shows more detail than my Tesla app.
Solar 1.0kW
Battery 0kW (100%)
Home 0.5kW
Grid 0.5kW (export)
Brightish sky. 100% grey cloud cover, raining.
Ah, that was just the snapshot. There's more just on that screen:Solar 1.0kW
Battery 0kW (100%)
Home 0.5kW
Grid 0.5kW (export)
Brightish sky. 100% grey cloud cover, raining.
Then there's all the subsequent menus which show all sorts of graphs which I don't really understand (truth is, I haven't really *tried* to understand).
pingu393 said:
Mars said:
pingu393 said:
Your app shows more detail than my Tesla app.
Solar 1.0kW
Battery 0kW (100%)
Home 0.5kW
Grid 0.5kW (export)
Brightish sky. 100% grey cloud cover, raining.
Ah, that was just the snapshot. There's more just on that screen:Solar 1.0kW
Battery 0kW (100%)
Home 0.5kW
Grid 0.5kW (export)
Brightish sky. 100% grey cloud cover, raining.
Then there's all the subsequent menus which show all sorts of graphs which I don't really understand (truth is, I haven't really *tried* to understand).
AW10 said:
It will be interesting to see how in the future the market perceives the value of energy saving features. If you had two otherwise identical houses on the same street but one had better insulation, double/triple glazing, solar panels, etc the more energy efficient one would be more attractive to most buyers but how much of a price premium could it command? For most people annual energy costs are second order to the annual mortgage costs and actual energy costs between different properties are harder to objectively compare. EPCs are of little use in this regard.
Depends at what stage of life you are at - if you have paid the mortgage off and will be looking towards retirement you would have a different perspective to someone in their 30’s with kids at school for a decade more…Edited by dobly on Friday 29th March 03:40
Mars said:
AW10 said:
Cheib said:
Understand that. When I spend my capital on gas or electricity bills I can’t get my money back either. I want to lower my spending/costs which is out of my post tax income.
I’d argue you probably can get it back to some extent and generate an ROI. I think in five to ten years time houses with good energy efficient infrastructure will have a pricing differential to what you might call a legacy set up….i.e. gas central heating with an old gas boiler, ste insulation and singe glazed windows (what we had until we installed new windows last autumn). If the investments I am making in the house mean that the house is worth a low single digit % more in ten years time then it will have been a good investment.
I realise plenty of people don’t have that view.
It will be interesting to see how in the future the market perceives the value of energy saving features. If you had two otherwise identical houses on the same street but one had better insulation, double/triple glazing, solar panels, etc the more energy efficient one would be more attractive to most buyers but how much of a price premium could it command? For most people annual energy costs are second order to the annual mortgage costs and actual energy costs between different properties are harder to objectively compare. EPCs are of little use in this regard. I’d argue you probably can get it back to some extent and generate an ROI. I think in five to ten years time houses with good energy efficient infrastructure will have a pricing differential to what you might call a legacy set up….i.e. gas central heating with an old gas boiler, s
te insulation and singe glazed windows (what we had until we installed new windows last autumn). If the investments I am making in the house mean that the house is worth a low single digit % more in ten years time then it will have been a good investment.I realise plenty of people don’t have that view.
I sold a house a few years ago that had a 4 kWp PV system generating £2500/year in FIT payments. At the time the estate agents weren't putting any sort of financial value on the panels despite the pretty much guaranteed income stream. That may well change in time.
In case I didn't make it obvious in previous posts
for me installing PV solar is purely a financial decision. But on the flip side we're contemplating spending many times more than the cost of a of a PV solar system to replace the tired cheap and cheerful timber double glazed windows and doors with alu-clad timber windows. I know full well we'll never recover the outlay but it will improve our comfort and enjoyment of the property. Go figure.I sort of equate the value of energy saving features like a well optioned second-hand car. It will add some degree of value and make it easier to sell but you'll never recoup the initial outlay.
Then there’s the issue that if you’re selling a house in ten years time with a gas central heating system people will start looking at that as an expensive liability which will need upgrading/replacing in the near future. The move to net zero is part carrot/part stick.
One of the reasons big houses are much cheaper per sq ft than smaller houses is running costs….market has priced them that way for years. I don’t see why it won’t start pricing houses with minimal energy costs in a similar way.
As has been pointed out that will need to be demonstrated with good quality data.
Cheib said:
...Then there’s the issue that if you’re selling a house in ten years time with a gas central heating system people will start looking at that as an expensive liability which will need upgrading/replacing in the near future...
Could one not argue that solar panels, inverters, cabling, battery banks, control units and complicated apps are also expensive liabilities as they age and are exposed to the elements? A gas boiler is a single box hung on an internal wall.Hereward said:
Cheib said:
...Then there’s the issue that if you’re selling a house in ten years time with a gas central heating system people will start looking at that as an expensive liability which will need upgrading/replacing in the near future...
Could one not argue that solar panels, inverters, cabling, battery banks, control units and complicated apps are also expensive liabilities as they age and are exposed to the elements? A gas boiler is a single box hung on an internal wall.I imagine in a lot of properties (most houses) it just won’t be possible to get a boiler installed. That’s fairly easy to do through building regs, a bit like in our old house we needed a replacement boiler, a new one could not be installed where the existing one was at it was on an internal wall.
Hereward said:
Doh - I get what you mean now. The house price would need to reflect the cost of replacing the obsolete gas boiler with expensive new solar / heat pump hardware.
We live in interesting times in so many ways.
Yes, building regs can be a nightmare. You can keep an old system going for decades, but you cannot replace it like-for-like. If it's replaced, it must meet the current regs.We live in interesting times in so many ways.
We live in a cul-de-sac of 14 near identically built houses built in 1975. About 15 years ago, one of our neighbours was upgrading their central heating system, so I paid him the scrap value for his old back boiler. I used the spares to keep ours going for another 10 years. The gas man said that he wasn't allowed to do a complete swap, but he could swap individual parts. Things may have got even stricter now.
PBCD said:
Mars said:
Well, I don't have any figures to hand but my solar woke-up from its winter slumber a few weeks ago, and my batteries are usually fully charged again by late morning. Over the last 2 weeks, I've been generating so much that it's exporting again
That's astonishing given the almost incessant rain and/or overcast days this country has been enduring recently.Are you in a part of the UK that has somehow escaped the gloomy, cloudy weather?
I've been surprised at how much we've generated in the winter months (our first year with solar). We typically use about 230kWh a month and have generated 200kWh in Jan, 205kWh in Feb and so far in March 355kWh.
You can see many days where we generated more than our 7-8kWh use:
February generation chart:
March generation chart:
Despite this I recently put my sister off having solar installed because the pricing and size of battery would have made things tight in terms of ROI and I felt it wasn't good value given the battery only covered half their winter daily use, so would be using peak priced power (depending on tariff) just when they'd have their oven, etc on for evening meals. I still think ours only worked out as well as it has because it's a bit oversized for our use and was installed at trade price by my son in law. Our energy bills are working out close to zero including our gas and both standing charges, plus my wife's winter fuel allowance, so that objective seems to have worked out for us.
Edited by OldSkoolRS on Friday 29th March 10:46
Cheib said:
I think the energy price shocks over the last couple of years will concentrate people’s minds, also as EV’s become more popular/have better range it is perfectly possible to believe you could not have to put “fuel” in your car for six months a year. I think/hope we’ll be in a situation with our house where we won’t need to buy electricity for at least six months a year including charging an EV.
Then there’s the issue that if you’re selling a house in ten years time with a gas central heating system people will start looking at that as an expensive liability which will need upgrading/replacing in the near future. The move to net zero is part carrot/part stick.
One of the reasons big houses are much cheaper per sq ft than smaller houses is running costs….market has priced them that way for years. I don’t see why it won’t start pricing houses with minimal energy costs in a similar way.
As has been pointed out that will need to be demonstrated with good quality data.
TBH, I think a few solar panels on a house is mostly missing the point.Then there’s the issue that if you’re selling a house in ten years time with a gas central heating system people will start looking at that as an expensive liability which will need upgrading/replacing in the near future. The move to net zero is part carrot/part stick.
One of the reasons big houses are much cheaper per sq ft than smaller houses is running costs….market has priced them that way for years. I don’t see why it won’t start pricing houses with minimal energy costs in a similar way.
As has been pointed out that will need to be demonstrated with good quality data.
The big bill with nice big houses is heating.
Last time we moved, I was looking at 'old' houses, rationalising that a leaky old house will cost an extra £1500 a year to keep warm, which is not a huge deal over the ten years I expect to stay there.
I don't see any sign of people 'discounting' houses which are expensive to heat.
Maybe that will happen in the next ten years?
A lot of people on here seem to be pouring money into making their homes open plan with lots of lossy glazing.
There's only about 3 players on the 'how tight can we be with GCH' thread!
Will people start to care about 'fuel economy' for houses?
Even the 'new' homes I've been in of late are not all that 'efficient'.
Solar panels and batteries are unlikely to make a big dent in anyone's December/January heating bill?
Or is an acre of panels and a GSHP a serious possibility?
OldSkoolRS said:
Similar here. Berkshire, South facing 5.5kW array with a 9.5kWh battery which we charge up during cheap rate overnight (now dropped to top it up to 80% as we generally start exporting by about 8:30-9am now unless it's really dull/wet).
I've been surprised at how much we've generated in the winter months (our first year with solar). We typically use about 230kWh a month and have generated 200kWh in Jan, 205kWh in Feb and so far in March 355kWh.
You can see many days where we generated more than our 7-8kWh use:
February generation chart:
March generation chart:
Despite this I recently put my sister off having solar installed because the pricing and size of battery would have made things tight in terms of ROI and I felt it wasn't good value given the battery only covered half their winter daily use, so would be using peak priced power (depending on tariff) just when they'd have their oven, etc on for evening meals. I still think ours only worked out as well as it has because it's a bit oversized for our use and was installed at trade price by my son in law. Our energy bills are working out close to zero including our gas and both standing charges, plus my wife's winter fuel allowance, so that objective seems to have worked out for us.
Good data, thank you for sharing.I've been surprised at how much we've generated in the winter months (our first year with solar). We typically use about 230kWh a month and have generated 200kWh in Jan, 205kWh in Feb and so far in March 355kWh.
You can see many days where we generated more than our 7-8kWh use:
February generation chart:
March generation chart:
Despite this I recently put my sister off having solar installed because the pricing and size of battery would have made things tight in terms of ROI and I felt it wasn't good value given the battery only covered half their winter daily use, so would be using peak priced power (depending on tariff) just when they'd have their oven, etc on for evening meals. I still think ours only worked out as well as it has because it's a bit oversized for our use and was installed at trade price by my son in law. Our energy bills are working out close to zero including our gas and both standing charges, plus my wife's winter fuel allowance, so that objective seems to have worked out for us.
Edited by OldSkoolRS on Friday 29th March 10:46
OutInTheShed said:
Solar panels and batteries are unlikely to make a big dent in anyone's December/January heating bill?
Or is an acre of panels and a GSHP a serious possibility?
Over the whole year we expect to make enough extra from export to pay for all of our gas standing charge and some of the gas use too. I wouldn't expect it to run GSHP during winter as you can see even from our February chart it doesn't quite cover our electricity use (well it did this year, but only because we were away the whole month..). You can't expect it to run heating in the depths of winter, but over the whole year it can make enough to cover you use and pay something towards the gas bill. Won't work if you add a jacuzzi though. Or is an acre of panels and a GSHP a serious possibility?
Having said that we don't use £1,500 gas a year anyway, let alone paying £1,500 extra that you talk about. Mid 1970s 4 bedroom detached with decent double glazing, cavity wall insulation and 400mm loft insulation, not open plan, running an 18 year old non condensing boiler. Following the thread you mentioned I got some ideas for adjusting my heating and it's worked well this winter and the house has been comfortable.
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