Discussion
OldSkoolRS said:
....
Having said that we don't use £1,500 gas a year anyway, let alone paying £1,500 extra that you talk about. Mid 1970s 4 bedroom detached with decent double glazing, cavity wall insulation and 400mm loft insulation, not open plan, running an 18 year old non condensing boiler.....
The £1500 extra might kick in with a 19th century place with solid walls and high ceilings. Having said that we don't use £1,500 gas a year anyway, let alone paying £1,500 extra that you talk about. Mid 1970s 4 bedroom detached with decent double glazing, cavity wall insulation and 400mm loft insulation, not open plan, running an 18 year old non condensing boiler.....
Possibly in a local climate where you need heating to combat damp.
Likely no mains gas, so oil heating.
I don't want to get involved in listed buildings with single glazing.
£1500 was a worst case figure entirely made up, but you get the principle?
It's noise on a house value over ten years, in the current market.
OutInTheShed said:
Cheib said:
I think the energy price shocks over the last couple of years will concentrate people’s minds, also as EV’s become more popular/have better range it is perfectly possible to believe you could not have to put “fuel” in your car for six months a year. I think/hope we’ll be in a situation with our house where we won’t need to buy electricity for at least six months a year including charging an EV.
Then there’s the issue that if you’re selling a house in ten years time with a gas central heating system people will start looking at that as an expensive liability which will need upgrading/replacing in the near future. The move to net zero is part carrot/part stick.
One of the reasons big houses are much cheaper per sq ft than smaller houses is running costs….market has priced them that way for years. I don’t see why it won’t start pricing houses with minimal energy costs in a similar way.
As has been pointed out that will need to be demonstrated with good quality data.
TBH, I think a few solar panels on a house is mostly missing the point.Then there’s the issue that if you’re selling a house in ten years time with a gas central heating system people will start looking at that as an expensive liability which will need upgrading/replacing in the near future. The move to net zero is part carrot/part stick.
One of the reasons big houses are much cheaper per sq ft than smaller houses is running costs….market has priced them that way for years. I don’t see why it won’t start pricing houses with minimal energy costs in a similar way.
As has been pointed out that will need to be demonstrated with good quality data.
The big bill with nice big houses is heating.
Last time we moved, I was looking at 'old' houses, rationalising that a leaky old house will cost an extra £1500 a year to keep warm, which is not a huge deal over the ten years I expect to stay there.
I don't see any sign of people 'discounting' houses which are expensive to heat.
Maybe that will happen in the next ten years?
A lot of people on here seem to be pouring money into making their homes open plan with lots of lossy glazing.
There's only about 3 players on the 'how tight can we be with GCH' thread!
Will people start to care about 'fuel economy' for houses?
Even the 'new' homes I've been in of late are not all that 'efficient'.
Solar panels and batteries are unlikely to make a big dent in anyone's December/January heating bill?
Or is an acre of panels and a GSHP a serious possibility?
We bought it just under three years ago…previous owners renovated it abut 14 years ago. They spent a lot of money on some things but the heating system it seems wasn’t one of them/they had a dreadful heating engineer. Maybe more money than sense too….
Main part of the house is on a single pipe system which is dreadfully inefficient…two boilers on that circuit to try and get the water hot enough to keep the radiators warm. Kitchen has a gas Aga in it….which keeps the kitchen warm but not much else because part of the kitchen is a suspended floor with a large void underneath which makes the floor very cold in winter. Back of the house is an old annex which has a twin pipe system with a modern combo boiler on it.
Our gas bill is not something to brag about !
Cheib said:
I know all bout inefficient hearing systems…we’re not just installing PV we’re updating the heating central heating system and some of the fabric of the building. Currently to keep this house warm we have FOUR gas boilers.
We bought it just under three years ago…previous owners renovated it abut 14 years ago. They spent a lot of money on some things but the heating system it seems wasn’t one of them/they had a dreadful heating engineer. Maybe more money than sense too….
Main part of the house is on a single pipe system which is dreadfully inefficient…two boilers on that circuit to try and get the water hot enough to keep the radiators warm. Kitchen has a gas Aga in it….which keeps the kitchen warm but not much else because part of the kitchen is a suspended floor with a large void underneath which makes the floor very cold in winter. Back of the house is an old annex which has a twin pipe system with a modern combo boiler on it.
Our gas bill is not something to brag about !
There's a house I looked at but didn't buy, about 4 years ago.We bought it just under three years ago…previous owners renovated it abut 14 years ago. They spent a lot of money on some things but the heating system it seems wasn’t one of them/they had a dreadful heating engineer. Maybe more money than sense too….
Main part of the house is on a single pipe system which is dreadfully inefficient…two boilers on that circuit to try and get the water hot enough to keep the radiators warm. Kitchen has a gas Aga in it….which keeps the kitchen warm but not much else because part of the kitchen is a suspended floor with a large void underneath which makes the floor very cold in winter. Back of the house is an old annex which has a twin pipe system with a modern combo boiler on it.
Our gas bill is not something to brag about !
They'd installed a lot of really nice solid wood flooring.
But no central heating at all. Electric heaters and woodstoves.
They wanted top money for it, having spent wads on it, but to me, it all needed a lot of work to get the fundamentals right.
I later met the people who'd lived there about 25 years ago, who told me it was the coldest house in the county.
Gotta love previous owners.
Our next house might be £750k. it's more important to know that it will be comfortable than to save a few grand on electricity, that is the big picture.
I see solar panels as just part of a scheme for energy efficient comfort.
OutInTheShed said:
Our next house might be £750k. it's more important to know that it will be comfortable than to save a few grand on electricity, that is the big picture.
I see solar panels as just part of a scheme for energy efficient comfort.
I think that's a healthy attitude, especially with a larger/older property with high ceilings as you mention. Ours was part of getting all our monthly bills down to increase cash flow having just retired and cleared the mortgage. Our only bills (other than Council Tax) are very small and don't add up too much, so from that aspect it's worked. I could feel a bit self righteous about the 'green aspect' however I'm not daft enough to think that it will cancel out all the pollution I've caused in 58 years being on this planet, so I'll keep quiet on that front. I see solar panels as just part of a scheme for energy efficient comfort.
OutInTheShed said:
TBH, I think a few solar panels on a house is mostly missing the point.
The big bill with nice big houses is heating.
Last time we moved, I was looking at 'old' houses, rationalising that a leaky old house will cost an extra £1500 a year to keep warm, which is not a huge deal over the ten years I expect to stay there.
I don't see any sign of people 'discounting' houses which are expensive to heat.
Maybe that will happen in the next ten years?
A lot of people on here seem to be pouring money into making their homes open plan with lots of lossy glazing.
There's only about 3 players on the 'how tight can we be with GCH' thread!
Will people start to care about 'fuel economy' for houses?
Even the 'new' homes I've been in of late are not all that 'efficient'.
Solar panels and batteries are unlikely to make a big dent in anyone's December/January heating bill?
Or is an acre of panels and a GSHP a serious possibility?
Electric is much bigger bill for me by quite a margin. Appreciate it's PH so 2300sqft is maybe servant quarters size, but our oil heating for that space (9ft ceilings too) is £1000 a year versus £2.4k for electric. Water is heated by oil, not electric.The big bill with nice big houses is heating.
Last time we moved, I was looking at 'old' houses, rationalising that a leaky old house will cost an extra £1500 a year to keep warm, which is not a huge deal over the ten years I expect to stay there.
I don't see any sign of people 'discounting' houses which are expensive to heat.
Maybe that will happen in the next ten years?
A lot of people on here seem to be pouring money into making their homes open plan with lots of lossy glazing.
There's only about 3 players on the 'how tight can we be with GCH' thread!
Will people start to care about 'fuel economy' for houses?
Even the 'new' homes I've been in of late are not all that 'efficient'.
Solar panels and batteries are unlikely to make a big dent in anyone's December/January heating bill?
Or is an acre of panels and a GSHP a serious possibility?
EV was about £600 of that cost, so call it £1.8k v £1k heat.
I'm only on my 1st full day of solar panels operating today but they generated 20kw today with a mixture of rain, cloud and sunshine.
Did some car charging, 2 loads of washing and tumble dryer, some cooking and a dishwasher off that free energy.
KTF said:
It’s not free though. Every kW you use is a kW that can’t be exported to recover the install cost 
It usually costs more to import than you get for export, so the actual saving is the difference.4.4kWh to run the dryer for two hours would have cost me 75.4p.
If I'd exported 4.4kWh, I'd have been paid 66p.
I would have saved 9.4p by using solar, rather than exporting. It doesn't quite work like that, though, as 2.2kW is a lot to be constantly generating, so there would probably be periods when I would have to draw from the grid (at 17.14p), or use the battery (at 0p, as the battery is filled by solar).
I wouldn't have been able to export anything if I didn't have solar.
Solar saves a little on stuff you are using NOW, but saves more when you are not consuming, as you are exporting.
Solar has very little benefit if you are not consuming or being paid to export.
A battery allows you to store sunshine, and use it when the sun has set, or when it isn't shining enough.
pingu393 said:
It usually costs more to import than you get for export, so the actual saving is the difference.
4.4kWh to run the dryer for two hours would have cost me 75.4p.
If I'd exported 4.4kWh, I'd have been paid 66p.
I would have saved 9.4p by using solar, rather than exporting. It doesn't quite work like that, though, as 2.2kW is a lot to be constantly generating, so there would probably be periods when I would have to draw from the grid (at 17.14p), or use the battery (at 0p, as the battery is filled by solar).
I wouldn't have been able to export anything if I didn't have solar.
Solar saves a little on stuff you are using NOW, but saves more when you are not consuming, as you are exporting.
Solar has very little benefit if you are not consuming or being paid to export.
A battery allows you to store sunshine, and use it when the sun has set, or when it isn't shining enough.
With my battery, it's better value to charge it fully at night, then export as much as I can during the day. 7.5p pkwh to charge, 15p pkwh export. 4.4kWh to run the dryer for two hours would have cost me 75.4p.
If I'd exported 4.4kWh, I'd have been paid 66p.
I would have saved 9.4p by using solar, rather than exporting. It doesn't quite work like that, though, as 2.2kW is a lot to be constantly generating, so there would probably be periods when I would have to draw from the grid (at 17.14p), or use the battery (at 0p, as the battery is filled by solar).
I wouldn't have been able to export anything if I didn't have solar.
Solar saves a little on stuff you are using NOW, but saves more when you are not consuming, as you are exporting.
Solar has very little benefit if you are not consuming or being paid to export.
A battery allows you to store sunshine, and use it when the sun has set, or when it isn't shining enough.
Road2Ruin said:
With my battery, it's better value to charge it fully at night, then export as much as I can during the day. 7.5p pkwh to charge, 15p pkwh export.
The battery should be filled using the cheapest source. Solar costs 0p. If you have an EV and can get on Agile, you can be paid to fill the battery .pingu393 said:
The battery should be filled using the cheapest source. Solar costs 0p. If you have an EV and can get on Agile, you can be paid to fill the battery .
Solar might cost 0p, but as I get 15p pkwh to export and charged only 7.5p pkwh to charge the battery, it makes more sense to fill the battery at 7.5p pkwh and then export everything. I make more money this way. I could even force the battery to discharge everything left before 23.30 and then fully charge again at cheap rate, if I could be bothered. .OutInTheShed said:
OldSkoolRS said:
....
Having said that we don't use £1,500 gas a year anyway, let alone paying £1,500 extra that you talk about. Mid 1970s 4 bedroom detached with decent double glazing, cavity wall insulation and 400mm loft insulation, not open plan, running an 18 year old non condensing boiler.....
The £1500 extra might kick in with a 19th century place with solid walls and high ceilings. Having said that we don't use £1,500 gas a year anyway, let alone paying £1,500 extra that you talk about. Mid 1970s 4 bedroom detached with decent double glazing, cavity wall insulation and 400mm loft insulation, not open plan, running an 18 year old non condensing boiler.....
Possibly in a local climate where you need heating to combat damp.
Likely no mains gas, so oil heating.
I don't want to get involved in listed buildings with single glazing.
£1500 was a worst case figure entirely made up, but you get the principle?
It's noise on a house value over ten years, in the current market.
Road2Ruin said:
Solar might cost 0p, but as I get 15p pkwh to export and charged only 7.5p pkwh to charge the battery, it makes more sense to fill the battery at 7.5p pkwh and then export everything. I make more money this way. I could even force the battery to discharge everything left before 23.30 and then fully charge again at cheap rate, if I could be bothered.
You can only export something that you have imported. There are only two ways to import, solar at 0p, or the grid at whatever is cheapest for you.If you would rather pay 7.5p than 0p, that's up to you. Obviously, if you don't have solar, then you have to use your cheapest option.
The only source cheaper than solar that I know about is when Agile will pay you to import.
pingu393 said:
You can only export something that you have imported. There are only two ways to import, solar at 0p, or the grid at whatever is cheapest for you.
If you would rather pay 7.5p than 0p, that's up to you. Obviously, if you don't have solar, then you have to use your cheapest option.
The only source cheaper than solar that I know about is when Agile will pay you to import.
I think you're missing the maths. Solar may be 0p, and yes I could fill my battery with it rather than pay to fill it at 7.5p. However, let's say for example that I use solar to fill my battery, it costs me nothing, but then I use everything I generate to fill the battery, so I make nothing. If though, I fill my battery at night, it costs me 75p in total for 10kwh. I can now though sell my 10kwh for 15p pkwh and make £1.50, so I am 75p better off. If you would rather pay 7.5p than 0p, that's up to you. Obviously, if you don't have solar, then you have to use your cheapest option.
The only source cheaper than solar that I know about is when Agile will pay you to import.
Road2Ruin said:
pingu393 said:
You can only export something that you have imported. There are only two ways to import, solar at 0p, or the grid at whatever is cheapest for you.
If you would rather pay 7.5p than 0p, that's up to you. Obviously, if you don't have solar, then you have to use your cheapest option.
The only source cheaper than solar that I know about is when Agile will pay you to import.
I think you're missing the maths. Solar may be 0p, and yes I could fill my battery with it rather than pay to fill it at 7.5p. However, let's say for example that I use solar to fill my battery, it costs me nothing, but then I use everything I generate to fill the battery, so I make nothing. If though, I fill my battery at night, it costs me 75p in total for 10kwh. I can now though sell my 10kwh for 15p pkwh and make £1.50, so I am 75p better off. If you would rather pay 7.5p than 0p, that's up to you. Obviously, if you don't have solar, then you have to use your cheapest option.
The only source cheaper than solar that I know about is when Agile will pay you to import.
pingu393 said:
I think that I'm in a different situation to you, as I can't export to the grid from my battery. I can only export excess solar.
I’ve read that elsewhere I think ? Some utility companies won’t allow export of previously imported electricity ? No idea how they monitor that but I think I’ve read about some tariffs requiring specific battery’s to be used ? Cheib said:
I’ve read that elsewhere I think ? Some utility companies won’t allow export of previously imported electricity ? No idea how they monitor that but I think I’ve read about some tariffs requiring specific battery’s to be used ?
That's a new one on me. I know some batteries can't export, but that's nothing to do with the elec company. Not sure how they would ever know where the electricity comes from. Road2Ruin said:
Cheib said:
I’ve read that elsewhere I think ? Some utility companies won’t allow export of previously imported electricity ? No idea how they monitor that but I think I’ve read about some tariffs requiring specific battery’s to be used ?
That's a new one on me. I know some batteries can't export, but that's nothing to do with the elec company. Not sure how they would ever know where the electricity comes from. 8.4L 154 said:
I've seen people report their dno has placed export restrictions from battery on G99 applications the reasoning seeming to be solar can only be exported during daylight hours when there is a grid demand whereas battery can be exported at any time including periods of low demand. I guess enforcement would be the same as any other export restriction however they police that, which i guess is they track down problems when they see voltages and energy on the national grid or when an export meter with restrictions placed on it starts exporting at night
This is the grid operators wanting exports limited, not the retailers?I think some of the tariffs today can encourage people to dump the contents of a battery just before it becomes cheap to recharge the battery.
As more people get batteries, the tariffs will have to be tailored to suit the DNO as well as the customer and the retailer.
pingu393 said:
I think that I'm in a different situation to you, as I can't export to the grid from my battery. I can only export excess solar.
Although you can charge your battery for free you will get paid 20pish for exporting your solar, so rather than charging for free you are charging at minus 20p. Charge your battery with a cheap overnight tariff at say 10p then you would be 10p better offIIIRestorerIII said:
pingu393 said:
I think that I'm in a different situation to you, as I can't export to the grid from my battery. I can only export excess solar.
Although you can charge your battery for free you will get paid 20pish for exporting your solar, so rather than charging for free you are charging at minus 20p. Charge your battery with a cheap overnight tariff at say 10p then you would be 10p better offI would need to do the maths, but I think the hefty Agile daytime rates in the winter may outweigh the benefits.
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