Adjusting right of way
Discussion
I'm looking for a bit of advice, if anyone has any experience of this sort of thing as its a new one on me.
Were hopefully gaining planning approval soon for a very small extension on our property, (No.34).
This sits over a right of way for our neighbours, (I know I know, bla bla bla... but well its literally this extension or nothing)
Ideally, I'd like to adjust the right of way as shown here, around the back of the new extension to where conveiantly, a couple of trees are being removed due to subsidence issues.
I've briefly mentioned to this about with my neighbours landlord, who is already being a bit of a knob about such matters.
FYI, no landscaping / terracing etc is present next door, just a concrete path and a bit of grass.
I presume its a case of getting the owners of 32 and 28 (who will have no problem with this) to agree, and then getting title deeds renewed?
Any input gratefully appreciated!
Were hopefully gaining planning approval soon for a very small extension on our property, (No.34).
This sits over a right of way for our neighbours, (I know I know, bla bla bla... but well its literally this extension or nothing)
Ideally, I'd like to adjust the right of way as shown here, around the back of the new extension to where conveiantly, a couple of trees are being removed due to subsidence issues.
I've briefly mentioned to this about with my neighbours landlord, who is already being a bit of a knob about such matters.
FYI, no landscaping / terracing etc is present next door, just a concrete path and a bit of grass.
I presume its a case of getting the owners of 32 and 28 (who will have no problem with this) to agree, and then getting title deeds renewed?
Any input gratefully appreciated!
My father has a RoW over the neighbouring property. Adjacent property was sold 5 years ago - countless potential buyers approached my father asking if he was amenable to removing his RoW - he said no to each approach, so none of them bought it. Someone who'd not asked, bought the house and just assumed my father would be amenable. Having lived in the house 60 years and with no other legal way of accessing his property he wasn't for turning but the new neighbour pressed on regardless. It took a court injunction during Covid to stop the neighbour developing over the RoW. My father and his neighbour went through hell for 3 years over this and the neighbour lost. The neighbour now openly admits he wish he'd never bought the house.
My advice - you should have got all the neighbours with the RoW on side before applying for the planning consent. On the basis you didn't, you'll need to be on a serious charm offensive to get them to agree now. IANAL, but as far as I'm aware if it's a formal RoW you can't force the neighbour to accept it being moved, they certainly couldn't in my father's case.
My advice - you should have got all the neighbours with the RoW on side before applying for the planning consent. On the basis you didn't, you'll need to be on a serious charm offensive to get them to agree now. IANAL, but as far as I'm aware if it's a formal RoW you can't force the neighbour to accept it being moved, they certainly couldn't in my father's case.
Assuming this is a private right of way (public rights of way are dealt with differently) then you’re right that this is a matter of negotiation with the affected parties.
Private rights of way are otherwise known as easements. How they come into being - formally in property deeds or as a matter of course over time - is relevant here.
This isn’t a planning activity - it’s property law and you need legal advice. Your solicitor is going to need to understand the specifics of how the right of way works.
As for complaining about the neighbouring property owner, I suggest you avoid further antagonism and get your legal advice straight first and develop an understanding of what level of compensation to the neighbour might be reasonable. You will also need to cover the legal costs of the adjoining neighbour.
(There are other questions as well about who owns what and whether actually there are also rights of way for no.28.
Oh, and what happened to no.30..?!!!)
Private rights of way are otherwise known as easements. How they come into being - formally in property deeds or as a matter of course over time - is relevant here.
This isn’t a planning activity - it’s property law and you need legal advice. Your solicitor is going to need to understand the specifics of how the right of way works.
As for complaining about the neighbouring property owner, I suggest you avoid further antagonism and get your legal advice straight first and develop an understanding of what level of compensation to the neighbour might be reasonable. You will also need to cover the legal costs of the adjoining neighbour.
(There are other questions as well about who owns what and whether actually there are also rights of way for no.28.
Oh, and what happened to no.30..?!!!)
We've been through this with our complete nightmare of a neighbour, don't assume that because what your doing doesn't inconvenience anyone really (at a guess your row isn't used often?) or possibly even greatly benefits them that they will agree.
Infact, even if they agree to your face, expect to start getting the ball rolling and then to go through refusing outright despite having agreed, come up with ridiculous issues that you overcome but they still agree/disagree, agree but then tell their solicitor to just leave it on the desk to rot.
In our case which is probably more cut and dried than yours, one neighbour affected, they currently have a difficult access across a gravel garden through 2 gates and gravel driveway with cars parked on it. Lack of privacy/inconvenience etc. no normal person would want to walk across someone else's garden etc. Etc. we created a nice concrete path for them, around the edge of our property, fully private and just for them to use, they could come and go at will without feeling like dicks coming across someone's garden.
Needless to say it's still stagnating on their solicitors desk and will until they die/sell the place. To make it even more ridiculous, use of the row actually inconveniences them as to walk out of it rather than the front door they have a substantial walk. Yet choose to do it just to be awkward. They used it as a holiday home so were barely there anyway, just pure awkwardness. Thankfully because of the fact they have basically ruined the property for themselves as no one in the area wants anything to do with them due to their behaviour, they have rented it out to a lovely girl who is a complete joy to live next to.
Tldr version. If you get even a sniff of objection to this either throw some money at it to make it go away or accept it will probably never happen.
Infact, even if they agree to your face, expect to start getting the ball rolling and then to go through refusing outright despite having agreed, come up with ridiculous issues that you overcome but they still agree/disagree, agree but then tell their solicitor to just leave it on the desk to rot.
In our case which is probably more cut and dried than yours, one neighbour affected, they currently have a difficult access across a gravel garden through 2 gates and gravel driveway with cars parked on it. Lack of privacy/inconvenience etc. no normal person would want to walk across someone else's garden etc. Etc. we created a nice concrete path for them, around the edge of our property, fully private and just for them to use, they could come and go at will without feeling like dicks coming across someone's garden.
Needless to say it's still stagnating on their solicitors desk and will until they die/sell the place. To make it even more ridiculous, use of the row actually inconveniences them as to walk out of it rather than the front door they have a substantial walk. Yet choose to do it just to be awkward. They used it as a holiday home so were barely there anyway, just pure awkwardness. Thankfully because of the fact they have basically ruined the property for themselves as no one in the area wants anything to do with them due to their behaviour, they have rented it out to a lovely girl who is a complete joy to live next to.
Tldr version. If you get even a sniff of objection to this either throw some money at it to make it go away or accept it will probably never happen.
Might be further complicated if no 32 has a mortgage, they might need to involve lender (more cost/complexity). Especially as you are asking them to give up a part of their garden the length of your extension - might not be an issue if just concrete/they don't care more and issue if they are using the space for plants/pond etc (you mention a path but does the new route follow that without walking on grass). That assumes you propose an L shape route for them, otherwise diagonal could be worse/better depending on features.
tommobot said:
I'm looking for a bit of advice, if anyone has any experience of this sort of thing as its a new one on me.
Were hopefully gaining planning approval soon for a very small extension on our property, (No.34).
This sits over a right of way for our neighbours, (I know I know, bla bla bla... but well its literally this extension or nothing)
Ideally, I'd like to adjust the right of way as shown here, around the back of the new extension to where conveiantly, a couple of trees are being removed due to subsidence issues.
I've briefly mentioned to this about with my neighbours landlord, who is already being a bit of a knob about such matters.
FYI, no landscaping / terracing etc is present next door, just a concrete path and a bit of grass.
I presume its a case of getting the owners of 32 and 28 (who will have no problem with this) to agree, and then getting title deeds renewed?
Any input gratefully appreciated!
How do you know 32 wont mind 28 traipsing across the garden?Were hopefully gaining planning approval soon for a very small extension on our property, (No.34).
This sits over a right of way for our neighbours, (I know I know, bla bla bla... but well its literally this extension or nothing)
Ideally, I'd like to adjust the right of way as shown here, around the back of the new extension to where conveiantly, a couple of trees are being removed due to subsidence issues.
I've briefly mentioned to this about with my neighbours landlord, who is already being a bit of a knob about such matters.
FYI, no landscaping / terracing etc is present next door, just a concrete path and a bit of grass.
I presume its a case of getting the owners of 32 and 28 (who will have no problem with this) to agree, and then getting title deeds renewed?
Any input gratefully appreciated!
Ok, I've updated this somewhat with the points noted above, and yes I did completely balls up on the numbering.
A small driveway separates 36 and 34 which leads to parking for those two properties, the land that we own is within green, and the new extension is within our ownership.
28 and 32 have an easement accross our land for use, which realistically is once a year if that really.
We get on well with 28 and they would have no issue with moving the ROW.
32 is owned by a landlord, presumably mortage free and really has no interest in the proeprty whatsoever, and even said when the current tennants leave they may sell (potentially to us, as we have asked previously)
I would propose to adjust the ROW, as shown on the plans as trees are due to be removed in this area anyway so to me, it seems like a pretty reasonable solution.
Drumroll said:
Your idea might suite you but it certainly doesn't your other 2 neighbours. Number 32 garden basically will become a foot path for number 28.
Just because someone doesn't see things the way you do, doesn't make them a knob.
Whilst I somewhat agree, does it fundementally ruin their life or affect them realistically any further than it does already? - no. So, get a grip and don't have a problem with it would be my view, and would be the view I would have if it was vice versa. To be difficult for the sake of being difficult is just.. Well, anyway - I'd potentially get it I they had an interest or owned and lived in the property but anway... Just because someone doesn't see things the way you do, doesn't make them a knob.
They had a formal chance to complain, during the planning process (with multiple applications submitted) and obviously had no point or objection to raise.
I would also agree with the points raised that I potentially should have contacted the neighbours to discuss this prior to planning, but planning has been such a faff to get through (and it still may not) that why rock the boat with something that cannot be done.
JQ said:
Another issue you will have to overcome - there will not be a RoW over 32's land giving access to the gate you intend to install for the occupier of 28. As such you will also need to vary the RoW between 32 and 28.
Fair point, and noted.
especially if the neighbour has a window at the back and is a 'habitable room' - 45 degree rule.Planning doesn't consider access so any objections raised on that basis likely wouldn't impact it. To stop you building the LL just has to say you must maintain the access then you are pretty much dead in the water. Maybe offer some landscaping as part of the works - someone will need to put a path where the tree was. Is it all concrete prior to that point? i.e. nothing else impacted by your diagonal path proposal?
tommobot said:
Whilst I somewhat agree, does it fundementally ruin their life or affect them realistically any further than it does already? - no. So, get a grip and don't have a problem with it would be my view, and would be the view I would have if it was vice versa. To be difficult for the sake of being difficult is just.. Well,
I wouldn’t try using this opinion in any negotiations tommobot said:
Whilst I somewhat agree, does it fundementally ruin their life or affect them realistically any further than it does already? - no. So, get a grip and don't have a problem with it would be my view, and would be the view I would have if it was vice versa. To be difficult for the sake of being difficult is just.. Well, anyway - I'd potentially get it I they had an interest or owned and lived in the property but anway...
Your proposal would cut next doors garden in two. I would be amazed if it was the other way round you would just say crack on. So maybe it is you who needs to "get a grip"You are going to need everyone who has the benefit of the RoW to agree, you are going to have to vary all of the titles (may not be possible on properties with mortgages). Who owns the drive next to number 34? They would have to agree too.
If I was a neighbour, I don't think I would agree to the change, especially if I lived in No32.
Better context would help, eg how is the RoW formalised, what is the actual on the ground situation (ideally google maps satellite and street view or just the location so we can look at it)
Amazed you spent the money on planning without agreeing everything with the neighbours first.
Its not a case of neighbours being difficult - I am afraid the difficult person here is the one who has just assumed he can change a private RoW
If I was a neighbour, I don't think I would agree to the change, especially if I lived in No32.
Better context would help, eg how is the RoW formalised, what is the actual on the ground situation (ideally google maps satellite and street view or just the location so we can look at it)
Amazed you spent the money on planning without agreeing everything with the neighbours first.
Its not a case of neighbours being difficult - I am afraid the difficult person here is the one who has just assumed he can change a private RoW
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