Removing a Fire Door
Discussion
Ok,
Friend has a flat with firedoors on the bedrooms and kitchen.
Given the kitchen door basically attacks everyone inside the kitchen and makes it nearly impossible to use 1/3 of the kitchen she wants to remove it.
Soooo, can she do that? Will it affect her leasehold or any other problems that anyone can see? (the Building management company pay for buildings insurance)
Friend has a flat with firedoors on the bedrooms and kitchen.
Given the kitchen door basically attacks everyone inside the kitchen and makes it nearly impossible to use 1/3 of the kitchen she wants to remove it.
Soooo, can she do that? Will it affect her leasehold or any other problems that anyone can see? (the Building management company pay for buildings insurance)
If her exit route in the case of a fire would come past the kitchen then she must not remove it.
I would assume that it is necessary as the developers probably wouldn't include one there if it were not needed.
Chances are that she would also be in breach of her lease, the insurance wont be pleased either as there would be more damage in a building where no effort has been made to control the path of the fire.
Best bet as said is to rehang so it hinges outside the kitchen.
I would assume that it is necessary as the developers probably wouldn't include one there if it were not needed.
Chances are that she would also be in breach of her lease, the insurance wont be pleased either as there would be more damage in a building where no effort has been made to control the path of the fire.
Best bet as said is to rehang so it hinges outside the kitchen.
freecar said:
If her exit route in the case of a fire would come past the kitchen then she must not remove it.
I would assume that it is necessary as the developers probably wouldn't include one there if it were not needed.
Chances are that she would also be in breach of her lease, the insurance wont be pleased either as there would be more damage in a building where no effort has been made to control the path of the fire.
Best bet as said is to rehang so it hinges outside the kitchen.
No, the exit route wouldn't go past, the kitchen is off the hallway. I would assume that it is necessary as the developers probably wouldn't include one there if it were not needed.
Chances are that she would also be in breach of her lease, the insurance wont be pleased either as there would be more damage in a building where no effort has been made to control the path of the fire.
Best bet as said is to rehang so it hinges outside the kitchen.
Yes, it is the lease bit I am concerned about...........
Re-hanging it IS an option she was kind of hoping to remove the door and make it into an archway.
if you remove a fire door in any room ,hall way ,bath room or any fire door anywhere,
you are breaking the law, the door is needed so the building can pass fire reg at the time of building ,you will allso null and void your contents and building insurance ,plus in the event of some one getting hurt your ass is f))cked.
i know this all to be true as i fit fire doors for a living .
you are breaking the law, the door is needed so the building can pass fire reg at the time of building ,you will allso null and void your contents and building insurance ,plus in the event of some one getting hurt your ass is f))cked.
i know this all to be true as i fit fire doors for a living .
redeye said:
if you remove a fire door in any room ,hall way ,bath room or any fire door anywhere,
you are breaking the law, the door is needed so the building can pass fire reg at the time of building ,you will allso null and void your contents and building insurance ,plus in the event of some one getting hurt your ass is f))cked.
i know this all to be true as i fit fire doors for a living .
Ah right, well, that is what I was looking for, the answer !! you are breaking the law, the door is needed so the building can pass fire reg at the time of building ,you will allso null and void your contents and building insurance ,plus in the event of some one getting hurt your ass is f))cked.
i know this all to be true as i fit fire doors for a living .
Is reversing it acceptable though?
Jasandjules said:
redeye said:
if you remove a fire door in any room ,hall way ,bath room or any fire door anywhere,
you are breaking the law, the door is needed so the building can pass fire reg at the time of building ,you will allso null and void your contents and building insurance ,plus in the event of some one getting hurt your ass is f))cked.
i know this all to be true as i fit fire doors for a living .
Ah right, well, that is what I was looking for, the answer !! you are breaking the law, the door is needed so the building can pass fire reg at the time of building ,you will allso null and void your contents and building insurance ,plus in the event of some one getting hurt your ass is f))cked.
i know this all to be true as i fit fire doors for a living .
Is reversing it acceptable though?
My father has just advised me of the correct legislation, he works for Hampshire fire and rescue doing exactly this. He took a very high profile retailer to court recently on fire regulation and stung them for a quarter of a million pounds fine!
There is actually no legal reason why you couldn't remove the door regarding fire code. The lease is another issue though, as is the insurance.
sleep envy said:
freecar said:
There is actually no legal reason why you couldn't remove the door regarding fire code. The lease is another issue though, as is the insurance.
so are you saying you can disregard part B of the building regs and still get a dwelling passed by building control?freecar said:
Can you not read? I said regarding fire code, building code wont effect her rental period much I would have thought?
Apologies, I glanced over in any case the code is advisory, and compliance does not imply immunity from any legal requirement nor does it necessarily satisfy any special conditions which might be required by insurance companies or regulatory authorities - in effect, ignore it
as regards to her rental period, that very much depends on whether there is an outbreak of fire
sleep envy said:
freecar said:
Can you not read? I said regarding fire code, building code wont effect her rental period much I would have thought?
Apologies, I glanced over in any case the code is advisory, and compliance does not imply immunity from any legal requirement nor does it necessarily satisfy any special conditions which might be required by insurance companies or regulatory authorities - in effect, ignore it
as regards to her rental period, that very much depends on whether there is an outbreak of fire
There may be lease implications if the flat is considered part of a "house of multiple occupancy" as there may be a caveat in the lease that no fire doors fitted can be removed or otherwise prevented from closing. This is the only legal framework where the fire service would have interest as it is a requirement to have fire doors seperating the occupants in a situation like that. All the landlord could to to the tennant would be to withold the costs of refitting one from the security deposit. All that would happen to the landlord would be that they would be served notice to correct the lack of fire door, essentially it wouldn't really cause anybody any real trouble. Of course, none of this could happen as the kitchen door wouldn't be part of HMO regulations, only the one seperating the flat from the common areas.
Personally, I would approach the landlord and explain that there is no legal reason to have a fire door there, that it restricts the use of the kitchen and could she remove it and replace it with an arch? That way she may be in violation of the original lease, but with permission the landlord couldn't retain any of the security.
freecar said:
Of course, none of this could happen as the kitchen door wouldn't be part of HMO regulations, only the one seperating the flat from the common areas.
Personally, I would approach the landlord and explain that there is no legal reason to have a fire door there
that's a bold statement which I'm not entirely sure is correctPersonally, I would approach the landlord and explain that there is no legal reason to have a fire door there
I admit, I'm not 100% au fait on the fire code or part B, but I've been around long enough to know that taking out fire doors (especially to kitchens) should be checked rather than done on the advice of a couple of chaps on the internets
IMO, OP tread carefully
Edited by sleep envy on Thursday 23 September 20:25
sleep envy said:
freecar said:
Of course, none of this could happen as the kitchen door wouldn't be part of HMO regulations, only the one seperating the flat from the common areas.
Personally, I would approach the landlord and explain that there is no legal reason to have a fire door there
that's a bold statement which I'm not entirely sure is correctPersonally, I would approach the landlord and explain that there is no legal reason to have a fire door there
I admit, I'm not 100% au fait on the fire code or part B, but I've been around long enough to know that taking out fire doors (especially to kitchens) should be checked rather than done on the advice of a couple of chaps on the internets
IMO, OP tread carefully
Edited by sleep envy on Thursday 23 September 20:25
Part B only applies during construction and upon completion, it has no retrospective powers.
Only workplaces have a running fire regulation responsibility. Houses of multiple occupancy have a legal requirement to have fire doors fitted to the front door of each flat only.
Right,
there is some misleading advice on here I believe.
The kitchen opens into the internal hallway of the flat I presume. I suspect that the bedrooms are similarly off the inernal hallway. The fire door on the kitchen is there to protect that escape route (as indeed are the other fire doors).
The door should not be removed in my view on the basis of the information available. They can be rehung as long as the door would not then open across an escape route from another door or corridor.
To be effective however they need to have a self closing device and close against 25mm stops incorporating intumescant strips and cold smoke seals. That (in particular the stops) can make rehanging quite complex unless they are loose stops.
If it's leasehold your friend WILL be in breach of thier covenants. Removal of the door WILL invalidate the insurance. Those comments pre-suppose of course that formal consent has not been granted.
The property will have been built to comply with the building regs applicable at the time. There are very limited powers for any statutory body to do anything about the removal of the door however.
The building regs don't have continuing and ongoing enforcement powers enshrined therein.
There is no such thing as Fire Code.
This is rubbish I'm afraid. Of course there was a reason for the fire door being there.
And Freecar, I presume your father is not a fire prevention officer as I simply cannot imagine anyone in that position advocating the removal of a fire door from a kitchen in a block of flats.
Having said all of that Jasandjules there are many different and complex issues that surround this sort of thing. They need specilist advice that none of us here can give without a lot more info. My comments are general ones as I'm sure you appreciate.
There has been at least one other thread about altering a flat quite recently, and a LOT of words were exchanged about that.
there is some misleading advice on here I believe.
The kitchen opens into the internal hallway of the flat I presume. I suspect that the bedrooms are similarly off the inernal hallway. The fire door on the kitchen is there to protect that escape route (as indeed are the other fire doors).
The door should not be removed in my view on the basis of the information available. They can be rehung as long as the door would not then open across an escape route from another door or corridor.
To be effective however they need to have a self closing device and close against 25mm stops incorporating intumescant strips and cold smoke seals. That (in particular the stops) can make rehanging quite complex unless they are loose stops.
If it's leasehold your friend WILL be in breach of thier covenants. Removal of the door WILL invalidate the insurance. Those comments pre-suppose of course that formal consent has not been granted.
The property will have been built to comply with the building regs applicable at the time. There are very limited powers for any statutory body to do anything about the removal of the door however.
The building regs don't have continuing and ongoing enforcement powers enshrined therein.
There is no such thing as Fire Code.
freecar said:
Of course, none of this could happen as the kitchen door wouldn't be part of HMO regulations, only the one seperating the flat from the common areas.
Personally, I would approach the landlord and explain that there is no legal reason to have a fire door there
Personally, I would approach the landlord and explain that there is no legal reason to have a fire door there
This is rubbish I'm afraid. Of course there was a reason for the fire door being there.
And Freecar, I presume your father is not a fire prevention officer as I simply cannot imagine anyone in that position advocating the removal of a fire door from a kitchen in a block of flats.
Having said all of that Jasandjules there are many different and complex issues that surround this sort of thing. They need specilist advice that none of us here can give without a lot more info. My comments are general ones as I'm sure you appreciate.
There has been at least one other thread about altering a flat quite recently, and a LOT of words were exchanged about that.
I am with Silverthorn here , do not remove that door if you have any concern for the lives of others , that door is there for a reason . There have been other threads here about removing similar.
I suspect the kitchen door is allowing a protected means of escape from other rooms within the apartment and also providing the required double door protection to the means of escape of others within the block ( unless the apartment is on the top floor)
Freecar you are giving out some dangerous and very poor advice on here ,
I am amazed that anybody would make such statements without seeing and understanding a floorplan of the building .
I suspect the kitchen door is allowing a protected means of escape from other rooms within the apartment and also providing the required double door protection to the means of escape of others within the block ( unless the apartment is on the top floor)
Freecar you are giving out some dangerous and very poor advice on here ,
I am amazed that anybody would make such statements without seeing and understanding a floorplan of the building .
Edited by Busamav on Thursday 23 September 21:29
Freecar
what you have posted my be the truth in that case, but i think you will find that part b building regs states that if a fire door is need then it must be installed to obtain the completion certificate.
once the certificate is issued building control have no power to re enter your property to re inspect.
but what i was saying is and still stand by is if you alter your property from the passed building regs and some thing goes wrong you can bet your last quid the insurance company will ask why you deviated from the fire regs and not pay out.
i know that part b fire regs is a national white paper but have found local councils have there own interpretations of the paper , so on that note if you were to call your local building control im sure they would put you write on this matter.
what you have posted my be the truth in that case, but i think you will find that part b building regs states that if a fire door is need then it must be installed to obtain the completion certificate.
once the certificate is issued building control have no power to re enter your property to re inspect.
but what i was saying is and still stand by is if you alter your property from the passed building regs and some thing goes wrong you can bet your last quid the insurance company will ask why you deviated from the fire regs and not pay out.
i know that part b fire regs is a national white paper but have found local councils have there own interpretations of the paper , so on that note if you were to call your local building control im sure they would put you write on this matter.
Is anybody reading my posts?
I said in my very first post that you shouldn't remove it if the escape route goes past the kitchen. This was then clarified by the OP.
Whoever presumed I was lieing about my father is a tool and I think that the company (who I have been asked not to name) who had to pay a quarter of a million quid in fines due to his work would agree, he knows what he speaks. Google it if you like, it was recent and reported on the national news.
Please read more carefully, I never bought part B into the equation, someone else did and I never claimed to know all the facts on it. I only said what others have agreed with, about it only being necessary for completion. I oculdn't comment on what the insurers would do but I have raised that point more than once.
So, somebody please show me where I have given bad advice, as all the complaints levelled at me are b
ks, as I already mentioned all the concerns in previous posts.
I said in my very first post that you shouldn't remove it if the escape route goes past the kitchen. This was then clarified by the OP.
Whoever presumed I was lieing about my father is a tool and I think that the company (who I have been asked not to name) who had to pay a quarter of a million quid in fines due to his work would agree, he knows what he speaks. Google it if you like, it was recent and reported on the national news.
Please read more carefully, I never bought part B into the equation, someone else did and I never claimed to know all the facts on it. I only said what others have agreed with, about it only being necessary for completion. I oculdn't comment on what the insurers would do but I have raised that point more than once.
So, somebody please show me where I have given bad advice, as all the complaints levelled at me are b
ks, as I already mentioned all the concerns in previous posts.Freecar , I am not going to get into a pissing competition with you , but It is you that has paid no attention to what is required , it is the kitchen door that the OP wants to remove .
and it is you that has on a number of occaisions above said there is no legal reason not to remove the door.
I truly cannot be bothered to go highlighting them , but you should have a read through your own posts and edit out the poor advice .
and it is you that has on a number of occaisions above said there is no legal reason not to remove the door.
I truly cannot be bothered to go highlighting them , but you should have a read through your own posts and edit out the poor advice .
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