Removing a Fire Door

[freecar]

Busamav said:

Freecar , I am not going to get into a pissing competition with you , but It is you that has paid no attention to what is required , it is the kitchen door that the OP wants to remove .

and it is you that has on a number of occaisions above said there is no legal reason not to remove the door.

I truly cannot be bothered to go highlighting them , but you should have a read through your own posts and edit out the poor advice .

If you follow this thread chronologically, you will see that my very first point is about preserving the escape route. I also mention being a problem for insurers and the lease, then loads of folk come on and critiscize me for not mentioning things which I had mentioned.

I never intended to get into any "pissing contest" with anybody. I merely mentioned my father as the source of my advice so as to give some credence to my words. Choose to believe it or not.

Like I said, put yourself in the OPs position and read the thread from the beginning. It makes perfect sense. Until a load of armchair experts come on and start spouting opinion like it's law. I don't do that, if I am not 100% certain to know something I will check, it just so happens I have a perfect souce to check in a situation like this. I wont bother in future, I'll let the keyboard experts get on with it.


ETA, the fact of the matter is that there is no law preventing someone from removing a fire door from a kitchen in a flat. There maybe rules regarding it's removal, like I have mentioned about escape route. But there is definitely no blanket exemption for removing fire doors from kitchens. If you want to know why most kitchens in flats have one, this is because many flats would need them to pass building regulation. But getting someone like my dad to come inspect and tell them for definite one way or another is more time consuming than fitting them to all kitchens as a matter of course.

Edited by freecar on Thursday 23 September 22:22

[dickymint]

jasandjules - ignore the negatives there is always a solution. Remove the door and fit a fire curtain. Quick google for you........

http://coopers-uk.co.uk/rollerfiredoor.htm

[Jasandjules]

Just to clarify, she owns the flat. BUT the buildings insurance is covered by the management company.

[FraserLFA]

dickymint said:

jasandjules - ignore the negatives there is always a solution. Remove the door and fit a fire curtain. Quick google for you........

http://coopers-uk.co.uk/rollerfiredoor.htm

I rather like that

[Wacky Racer]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/8379503....

[freecar]

FraserLFA said:

dickymint said:

jasandjules - ignore the negatives there is always a solution. Remove the door and fit a fire curtain. Quick google for you........

http://coopers-uk.co.uk/rollerfiredoor.htm

I rather like that

I'll be showing that to my old man come morning, I had thought about custom made pocket doors that would cost a fortune but never considered a curtain. Any idea on costings on those? The only problem I can see with them are that they are designed to fit into active fire detection systems, which means a sensor grid to ensure they close in the event of a temperature or smoke event. Most flats wont have this (some newer ones do though, worth checking out)

J&J, get her to check her lease then , she'll probably have problems trying to get a blanket "fire door" policy changed but she can always hope. I would expect to see a caveat about "removing or preventing from closing any existing fire door" even if the door wasn't required to meet building codes when constructed. This could be a fly in the ointment.

[dickymint]

freecar said:

FraserLFA said:

dickymint said:

jasandjules - ignore the negatives there is always a solution. Remove the door and fit a fire curtain. Quick google for you........

http://coopers-uk.co.uk/rollerfiredoor.htm

I rather like that

I'll be showing that to my old man come morning, I had thought about custom made pocket doors that would cost a fortune but never considered a curtain. Any idea on costings on those? The only problem I can see with them are that they are designed to fit into active fire detection systems, which means a sensor grid to ensure they close in the event of a temperature or smoke event. Most flats wont have this (some newer ones do though, worth checking out)

J&J, get her to check her lease then , she'll probably have problems trying to get a blanket "fire door" policy changed but she can always hope. I would expect to see a caveat about "removing or preventing from closing any existing fire door" even if the door wasn't required to meet building codes when constructed. This could be a fly in the ointment.

No idea on costings sorry. Roller shutter doors linked to fire alarms and or smoke detectors have been in use in industrial situations for donkeys years though. it's just a bit of lateral thinking to help out a PHer.

Edited by dickymint on Thursday 23 September 22:54

[freecar]

dickymint said:

freecar said:

FraserLFA said:

dickymint said:

jasandjules - ignore the negatives there is always a solution. Remove the door and fit a fire curtain. Quick google for you........

http://coopers-uk.co.uk/rollerfiredoor.htm

I rather like that

I'll be showing that to my old man come morning, I had thought about custom made pocket doors that would cost a fortune but never considered a curtain. Any idea on costings on those? The only problem I can see with them are that they are designed to fit into active fire detection systems, which means a sensor grid to ensure they close in the event of a temperature or smoke event. Most flats wont have this (some newer ones do though, worth checking out)

J&J, get her to check her lease then , she'll probably have problems trying to get a blanket "fire door" policy changed but she can always hope. I would expect to see a caveat about "removing or preventing from closing any existing fire door" even if the door wasn't required to meet building codes when constructed. This could be a fly in the ointment.

No idea on costings sorry. Roller shutter doors linked to fire alarms and or smoke detectors have been in use in industrial situations for donkeys years though. it's just a bit of lateral thinking to help out a PHer.

Edited by dickymint on Thursday 23 September 22:54

Yeah I realised that it was a more industrial solution while I was posting, they've got all the coolest gadgets! I remember another thread where someone wanted to do an open plan kitchen that would have fallen foul of escape route rules, don't think he got a solution in the end, I guess domestic designs have a long way to go.

[redeye]

a fire door costs about £40 do you think this roller door linked to the alarms will be in the same range? i wonder what they will fit

[Jasandjules]

Yep, I am trying to get her to get hold of the lease from the building management company or to check though what her solicitor provided so I can take a look. I am also thinkign I might just call the management company myself (of course that will put them on notice but she won't do anything naughty anyway).

That fire curtain looks superb though, but I don't know if she could afford that.

The fire doors also have that chain which doesn't half make a lot of noise when opening and closing...... It's like the hammer house of horrors flat.....

[silverthorn2151]

Freecar,

Who said you were lying about your father? I just expressed a degree of suprise is all. (based on working with Fire Prevention officers for about 33 years)

silverthorn2151 said:

And Freecar, I presume your father is not a fire prevention officer as I simply cannot imagine anyone in that position advocating the removal of a fire door from a kitchen in a block of flats.

Curtains, shutters and the like are often floated around in such situations, but they are rarely a cost effective or practical solution in a domestic situation.

[Busamav]

The basic thing to remember is that to remove a fire door from a means of escape is Notifiable works under the Building Regulations , whether or not you decide to submit a formal application is a personal choice .

A fire curtain replacement with a fusible link etc would of course be accepted , but will most likely be in excess of a thousand pounds.

[freecar]

silverthorn2151 said:

Freecar,

Who said you were lying about your father? I just expressed a degree of suprise is all. (based on working with Fire Prevention officers for about 33 years)

silverthorn2151 said:

And Freecar, I presume your father is not a fire prevention officer as I simply cannot imagine anyone in that position advocating the removal of a fire door from a kitchen in a block of flats.

Curtains, shutters and the like are often floated around in such situations, but they are rarely a cost effective or practical solution in a domestic situation.

As it goes, I'm not 100% on his current job title, but he was an FPO, he may have a different title now though. He doesn't tend to go round and do inspections now, he generally just prepares cases for enforcement now.

He's very black and white where it comes to regulations (can be infuriating sometimes, you get used to it though!) so he will only give the book answer, which is there is no requirement for EVERY kitchen to have a fire door (this is where it can be infuriating, every statement has caveats!) however, there must be one if necessary to protect an escape route which probably is 80-90% of the time in flat builds! So he didn't advocate anything, just advised of the correct legislation.

Busamav, you wouldn't be granted permission to remove a fire door from an escape route anyway so I don't know where you are going here. The door can only be removed if it is not necessary to protect the escape route, then it wouldn't be a notifiable job anyway.

[Jasandjules]

What confuses me here is that the bathroom door opens into the hallway AND if open would stop people getting out of both bedrooms...... And it is not a firedoor..........

[Busamav]

freecar said:

[
Busamav, you wouldn't be granted permission to remove a fire door from an escape route anyway so I don't know where you are going here.

exactly !

The OP needs to know what the formal route is , it is pretty obvious to most in the business that he would not get permission to do so , despite all of the dodging around the subject and bad advice contained within this thread .

[Busamav]

Jasandjules said:

What confuses me here is that the bathroom door opens into the hallway AND if open would stop people getting out of both bedrooms...... And it is not a firedoor..........

Bathrooms are not considered to constitute a fire risk . )

[silverthorn2151]

Jasandjules said:

What confuses me here is that the bathroom door opens into the hallway AND if open would stop people getting out of both bedrooms...... And it is not a firedoor..........

It's not the physical obstruction issue that is key, it's the fire resistance of the door and it's frame. The view taken is that you could close the door and get past. If the door (or lack of it) is allowing smoke and heat to enter the proteced escape route you might not be able to pass.

There are controls on doors opening on to escape rotes and staircases however, but an internal hallway is less of an issue.

Bathrooms do not need to have a fire door on them.

[mk1fan]

Jasandjules said:

What confuses me here is that the bathroom door opens into the hallway AND if open would stop people getting out of both bedrooms...... And it is not a firedoor..........

That's because when the disabled person slips out of their wheelchair and are slumped on the floor you can still open the door as it opens outwards.

[Jasandjules]

silverthorn2151 said:

Jasandjules said:

What confuses me here is that the bathroom door opens into the hallway AND if open would stop people getting out of both bedrooms...... And it is not a firedoor..........

It's not the physical obstruction issue that is key, it's the fire resistance of the door and it's frame. The view taken is that you could close the door and get past. If the door (or lack of it) is allowing smoke and heat to enter the proteced escape route you might not be able to pass.

Ah right, that makes sense, thank you.

Going to give consideration to hanging it the other way round instead. It seems like the "easiest" solution under the circumstances.

[redeye]

sorry had to reply.
part b fire reg states ALL doors in the MOE passage ,(bedroom ,bathroom ,kitchen ,lounge ,dinner,broom cupboard,under stairs cupboard, or any were there is a door ,must be a fire door of 20 min rated .
there is no exception.
you dont need auto shut chains any more, but must have fire rated hinges and fire seal in the door or the frame.