Keeping pets in cages - cruel?

[P101]

I feel incredibly guilty and sad that when I was a kid I had a pet rabbit that was kept in a hutch. What a miserable life. The rabbits I have now, live in the back of my garage with a cat flap that gives them access to a 9 metre X 5 metre run. Rabbits need to be able to run around and exercise. In fact most animals need to be able to do this. It's a sad fact that a very high proportion of pet owners aren't really animal lovers. No correct health care or accommodation provided. Pets bought because they are cute and to amuse the kids.

[Kermit power]

doogz said:

WRT 'house' cats, we have 3 cats. One lives in the barn. He's a big nasty bd of a cat, and doesn't like being inside the house. He sleeps out there. Then we have 2 cats that live inside. One of them loves being outside, which is fine, she can go out and run about and pretend she's a big bad outside cat whilst chasing flys and insects because she's a useless hunter.

But the other one is absolutely terrified of being outside. The door will be open, and he'll sit in the kitchen on top of their scratching post and basically hide. If you pick him up and take him outside, he'll climb up your trouser leg and make pathetic noises til you pick him back up and take him inside.

That's not having "house cats" though. That's just letting cats choose where they do their thing.

I don't imagine cat 1 would react any better to being forced to live in the house 24/7 than cat 3 would to being kicked out to fend for itself in the barn?

[Prof Beard]

I have a pet Chinese soft-shell turtle - being aquatic, he lives in a big tank. Whilst not as good as living in a river as nature intended, if I hadn't acquired him he would have been made into soup, so I guess if he was bright enough to understand he'd vote for the tank...

[Rude-boy]

I'm not a fan of house cats at all. Just seems wrong to me but if they have the choice to be a house cat or an out door cat via a cat flap then that is just fine.

We have 5 minos who have a 60 litre tank to themselves and a Syrian hamster who has a large cage but has taken to biting the bars (unlike the Chinese one we adopted earlier this year as the owner's cat spent ever hour of the day staring at it mouthing "lunch" at the cage). We're about to but it a slightly larger 70x40x50 Critter's Choice habitat as she is starting to hurt herself.

Is she doing this as she wants to escape into a bigger World? Don't think so as only once has she made a run for it when the g/f has left the cage door open at night and even then was found a few hours later trying to get back into the cage!

She gets taken out every night and has a long run about in either her ball or 'free range' although with a lot of cables in hidden away places this can be rather traumatic for us!

When I had a rabbit as a child he had a nice hutch and small run for the winter which docked into a 10’Lx6’Wx4’H run that we would move around the garden – can’t stand seeing them in the ones that are only a few times bigger than them, even if they are ‘let out’ when the owner can be bothered.

I certainly would not want to cage a dog unless for travel only, although can understand why some owners have an open cage with the dog’s bed in it so that they can close the door and protect them from non dog lovers when they visit.

[Tiggsy]

PeanutHead said:

I have an african grey and keep it in a cage do you think i should set it free? hope my cat doesn't kill it or if it survives the cat i hope it is OK and not suffer from winter weather.

Do what? Keeping something cruley caged on the basis that letting it go will kill it because its in the wrong country might be a clue as to whether its a good pet! Does it fly much? I'd imagine, being a bird, it would fancy a go at that!

Its like Joesph Fritzl saying he kept her in the cellar because he had a tiger upstairs....whats he supposed to do? Let her out to be eaten???

[therealpigdog]

PaulKemp said:

"Good animal husbandry is knowing what your animal needs and giving it to them."

Have you asked them what they need?
Or are you just making a decision that fits your lifestyle?

I haven't asked my 3 month old daughter what she needs, but strangely I've been able to find out from other sources and provide for her accordingly. Of course, I could just be forcing her to fit into my lifestyle (hey, sleeping at night would be great! but perhaps I should encourage her to continue waking up every two hours or so for a feed?).

Sure, my animals lifestyles have been adapted to suit my lifestyle, just as my lifestyle has been adapted to suit theirs. I don't think that constitutes cruelness.

All I was suggesting is that it is not as black and white as to say Cage = bad; free roaming = good.

[MocMocaMoc]

doogz said:

Well the little guy is a house cat. He never goes outside. I wouldn't call it cruelty though, as suggested earlier in the thread, since it what he wants.

Little poofter of a cat that he is

I wasn't saying YOUR cat in particular, obviously there'll be exceptions to any rule, but in general house cats are (or began their lives as) perfectly confident little predators that love to climb trees.

And they're deprived of that because the owner who lives by a duel carriageway had to own a cat?

Edited by MocMocaMoc on Tuesday 2nd October 10:56

[Rugbyman]

Kermit power said:

PeanutHead said:

OP, do you have the same opinion with regards to zoos? also are you against people having tropical pets? and farms, it must be bloody poor conditions for those dairy cows.
What about horses being kept locked up in a stable every night and being ridden just for fun or money?
I have an african grey and keep it in a cage do you think i should set it free? hope my cat doesn't kill it or if it survives the cat i hope it is OK and not suffer from winter weather.
I also have a tortoise should i let that go also?
We keep our 2 dogs in the house and lock them in a room at night, you reckon i should give them the run of the house?
Sometimes cages, pens, vivariums, ponds etc... is a home to the animal and not a prison.

I think you are trying to justify your own position to yourself.

Your view on the African grey parrot just strikes me as twisted and wrong on so many levels. You're justifying keeping it in a cage because you've removed it from the climate conditions of its natural habitat and put it close to a predator it wouldn't encounter in that natural habitat, and you're trying to justify that as a good thing???

If you'd got the bird's best interests at heart, then you'd travel to Africa to see African greys. You wouldn't put one in a cage and try to tell people (and yourself) you were doing it for the bird's own good!

You are wrong on so many levels

My African grey was bred and hand reared by an registered local breeder - it has never been to Africa

Does Africa have cats - predators ....of course

My house is her home and her cage is her safe place .

She is happy , loved and loves us, she would be heart broken if parted from us - I mean literaly

She is fed the absolute best natural food sourced from the best bird food nutritionist in the country

She is treated by one of the best avian vets in the country - if not the best

She has free reign to fly around our house ( we are lucky to have double height ceilings with high beams ) she comes back to her cage when she wants or when we call because its bedtime ..... she gives us the ultimate trust by letting us tickle her neck.... she whistles , sings , talks to us all the time and is so happy to see us every morning after being safe and cosy in her safe place ...

We very rarely have to put her away when strangers come round

She has NEVER ever bitten anyone

She would do NONE of the above if not happy

Edited by Rugbyman on Tuesday 2nd October 11:42

[MysteryLemon]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

See what you descibe to me sounds ok. Used as a bed and a safe place they feel comfortable but its far to easy to abuse and people who possibly shouldnt have dogs will easily lock them in how hours just to get them out of the way.

I used to live next to a woman who locked her cat in her shed over night as she didnt like it sleeping in the house and only let it out to feed it and when the kids wanted to play with it.

Sounds cruel but in reality its nothing more than what you would do with a bird or hamster etc. I did report her to the RSPCA though but the cat got run over before they bothered to come and investigate...

Edited by MysteryLemon on Tuesday 2nd October 11:38

[Kermit power]

Rugbyman said:

You are wrong on so many levels

My African grey was bred and hand reared by an registered local breeder - it has never been to Africa

Does Africa have cats - predators ....of course

My house is her home and her cage is her safe place .

She is happy , loved and loves us, she would be heart broken if parted from us - I mean literaly

She is fed the absolute best natural food sourced from the best bird food nutritionist in the country

I'm basing my views on what Peanuthead said. His justification for keeping a bird in a cage was that the winter weather would kill it if it got outside, but only if his cat didn't get to it first.

[Rugbyman]

Kermit power said:

Rugbyman said:

You are wrong on so many levels

My African grey was bred and hand reared by an registered local breeder - it has never been to Africa

Does Africa have cats - predators ....of course

My house is her home and her cage is her safe place .

She is happy , loved and loves us, she would be heart broken if parted from us - I mean literaly

She is fed the absolute best natural food sourced from the best bird food nutritionist in the country

I'm basing my views on what Peanuthead said. His justification for keeping a bird in a cage was that the winter weather would kill it if it got outside, but only if his cat didn't get to it first.

I do understand the motivation for your post but dont base your view on what one person says - I replied for balance

Any African Grey would die of cold or starvation if set free

Again for balance - there are bad keepers of pets whatever pet they have - bad parrot keepers too and it breaks my heart to see any parrot or other pet treated badly

Both my birds are rescued from poor homes - one from Birdline Uk and the other we rescued ourselves, paying a not unsubstantial fee to do so ..... our 2 birds are so much happier being treated the way they should ie with love and respect and trust.

This should be the same with all pets.

Back to cages ..... cruel ?

No .... some owners/keepers are cruel

[PeanutHead]

Kermit power said:

I'm basing my views on what Peanuthead said. His justification for keeping a bird in a cage was that the winter weather would kill it if it got outside, but only if his cat didn't get to it first.

I suppose i should have worded it like Rugbyman then, our african grey had 3 previous owners and was 8yrs when we got him.
I was also basing my post on the OP title - Keeping pets in cages - cruel? and his post.

ETA - It would also help if you had read my whole post including the last line.

Edited by PeanutHead on Tuesday 2nd October 12:43

[jp7152]

I have six rats and they enjoy the safety of their cage. I'll regularly leave it open for hours on end and they'll sit on the ledge and look out. They never actually get out however. A few times one has fallen/been pushed out. If this happens they immediately try to get back in ASAP and all the other rats run to the edge looking shocked to watch whoever has fallen out!

[M888SXY]

My dog never ever goes off the lead when outside of the garden. She is not small animal/dog safe and is a danger to road users.

There are not many areas where, imho, a dog can be off lead safely. Public parks do not count. I get a bit fed up with other people's dogs coming up to mine and she does not like it. The same goes for off lead dogs irritating other people. The other owners tend to say "it's OK, it won't hurt anyone" when their dog will not return to them when called.

No it's not OK.

Not trying to be provocative, just a point of view from the other way.

BlackVanDyke said:

Same again with idiots that buy a dog and then barely walk it and never ever take it somewhere it can go off-lead safely.

[OzzyR1]

Kermit power said:

I think you are trying to justify your own position to yourself.

Your view on the African grey parrot just strikes me as twisted and wrong on so many levels. You're justifying keeping it in a cage because you've removed it from the climate conditions of its natural habitat and put it close to a predator it wouldn't encounter in that natural habitat, and you're trying to justify that as a good thing???

If you'd got the bird's best interests at heart, then you'd travel to Africa to see African greys. You wouldn't put one in a cage and try to tell people (and yourself) you were doing it for the bird's own good!

Have you got any paintbrushes, other than the one that only colours in black and white?

I also have an African Grey, who, rather than being snatched from the wild, I got through a contact in animal rescue after an illegal breeding operation in the UK was shut down.

He lives in a cage which is about 6ft high, 4ft wide and 3ft deep. The top is also permanently open (splits into two halves with a perch slotted in between). He is lucky in that there is always someone at home so he can come & go as he pleases. I have even had detachable screens made for windows so this arrangement can be continued in the summer.

Despite it always being open, he spends maybe 75% of his time in the cage, its his home and where is food and various bits and pieces are. He also feels secure in there as when someone visits who he does not know it is the place he heads for - the vet said he has probably never forgotten the mistreatment he had as a young bird.

Although I accept a bird can never be properly domesticated, he is maybe 95% of the way there and have no idea of how to survive in the wild. I like to think that I have tried to do my best by him as the other alternative at the time of his rescue was being put to sleep.

Trust me, it was a decision that I pondered on for a couple of weeks before taking him on. Not so much the £800 vets bill to get him right or maybe the £1,000 I've spent on cages, stands and other kit. More that was I prepared to take on a 3month old pet with a life expectancy of 50 years on average.

I like to think I've done the right thing but maybe you can tell me what I've done wrong?

[BlackVanDyke]

M888SXY said:

My dog never ever goes off the lead when outside of the garden. She is not small animal/dog safe and is a danger to road users.

There are not many areas where, imho, a dog can be off lead safely. Public parks do not count. I get a bit fed up with other people's dogs coming up to mine and she does not like it. The same goes for off lead dogs irritating other people. The other owners tend to say "it's OK, it won't hurt anyone" when their dog will not return to them when called.

No it's not OK.

Not trying to be provocative, just a point of view from the other way.

BlackVanDyke said:

Same again with idiots that buy a dog and then barely walk it and never ever take it somewhere it can go off-lead safely.

That's a very fair point - there is a non dog-safe dog in my family too. I was referring more generally to people that buy themselves a pet rather than ?rescues like yours.

On a similar vein I have house cats. 2 would not be safe going out basically at all (one brain injured, one hip dysplasia), the third could if I lived somewhere safe. It's not a matter of personal preference, just basic duty of care to these creatures that exist because some fking idiot (or several fking idiots) failed to get their cat neutered. Out in the wild the first two wouldn't have survived their first 6 months.

[Mubby]

I think some animals should live in cages for thier own safety as much as anything else.

my 10 rats live in 3 large cages, with plenty of things inside to keep them occupied, plus time out free range. It would not be safe for them to be out all of the time.

My rabbits have a garden shed with cat flap and run attached, with different levels and hides etc inside, not a lucious green field to run free in I agree, but a damn site better than a 3ft hutch.

my harvest mice live in a tank, again couldn't really run free in the house! these do not come out to play as such and only come out of the tank when I clean it, as they are a watching not handling type of pet.

2 cats, 1 goes outdoors when he wants to, and the kitten will when she is older.

[M888SXY]

Not resucued as such but a retired racing dog.

I obviously got the wrong end of the stick. Sorry.

BlackVanDyke said:

rather than ?rescues like yours.

.

[Kermit power]

OzzyR1 said:

Have you got any paintbrushes, other than the one that only colours in black and white?

I also have an African Grey, who, rather than being snatched from the wild, I got through a contact in animal rescue after an illegal breeding operation in the UK was shut down.

He lives in a cage which is about 6ft high, 4ft wide and 3ft deep. The top is also permanently open (splits into two halves with a perch slotted in between). He is lucky in that there is always someone at home so he can come & go as he pleases. I have even had detachable screens made for windows so this arrangement can be continued in the summer.

Despite it always being open, he spends maybe 75% of his time in the cage, its his home and where is food and various bits and pieces are. He also feels secure in there as when someone visits who he does not know it is the place he heads for - the vet said he has probably never forgotten the mistreatment he had as a young bird.

Although I accept a bird can never be properly domesticated, he is maybe 95% of the way there and have no idea of how to survive in the wild. I like to think that I have tried to do my best by him as the other alternative at the time of his rescue was being put to sleep.

Trust me, it was a decision that I pondered on for a couple of weeks before taking him on. Not so much the £800 vets bill to get him right or maybe the £1,000 I've spent on cages, stands and other kit. More that was I prepared to take on a 3month old pet with a life expectancy of 50 years on average.

I like to think I've done the right thing but maybe you can tell me what I've done wrong?

From that description, you're not keeping a bird in a cage. You've got a bird which has a cage it can go in and out of when it feels like it. Hardly the same thing, is it?

[GokTweed]

The Mrs's cat is currently staying with her parents as we're renting and not allowed her (soon to change) they have another cat who comes and goes as he pleases but she is a voluntary house cat. Never goes out and occasionally sunbathes on the patio in the three days of summer we seem to get here.

Mind she is 7kg and should be 4. That's going to bloody change when i get my hands on that Garfield wannabe. Hopefully she will be more adventurous then.

Thinking of zoo's what are people opinions on these? perhaps it should be another thread?