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Munter

25,376 posts

128 months

[news] 
Saturday 13th October 2012 quote quote all
whoami said:
Munter said:
But I don't believe they do kill for pleasure.
Munter said:
So why not do it in an enjoyable way.
So, which is it?
Read the post again. Comprehend. Then post.

The event. Enjoyable.

The killing. A necessary part. But not necessary to enjoy.

whoami

9,782 posts

127 months

[news] 
Saturday 13th October 2012 quote quote all
Munter said:
whoami said:
Munter said:
But I don't believe they do kill for pleasure.
Munter said:
So why not do it in an enjoyable way.
So, which is it?
Read the post again. Comprehend. Then post.

The event. Enjoyable.

The killing. A necessary part. But not necessary to enjoy.
Yes, thanks for that.

Do you honestly believe that people spend hundreds, often thousands of pounds per day on a shoot and not enjoy the whole process?

The people I know who do this, enjoy it all. Killing included.

I am not condemning either side here but if you truly believe what you post then I've rarely seen such spectacular naivety.

Munter

25,376 posts

128 months

[news] 
Saturday 13th October 2012 quote quote all
whoami said:
I am not condemning either side here but if you truly believe what you post then I've rarely seen such spectacular naivety.
Not at all. We all do things everyday where taken as a whole we enjoy it. But some components of which we are indifferent towards.

I enjoy driving. I'm indifferent (or worse irritated), by having to buy fuel to do it. But I enjoy it.

I'm sure having spoken to people who have been shooting that the death of the bird they are indifferent to. It's not an event. A non thing. Not something considered. Neither enjoyed or upsetting. The skill, competition, and atmosphere. That's what they clearly enjoyed.

Upatdawn

1,723 posts

35 months

[news] 
Saturday 13th October 2012 quote quote all
you can shoot clay pigeons 365 days of the year......................

or are they too fast for you?


Hilts

3,044 posts

169 months

[news] 
Sunday 14th October 2012 quote quote all
Munter said:
Hilts said:
I've never understood the personal pleasure some people get from killing animals.
I can understand the need for killing in some circumstances but to actually enjoy it or find it fun I think you'd have to be a little warped or have some issues.
Ok I'm not from the shooting set. But I don't believe they do kill for pleasure.
Clearly some of them do, the OP thinks it's "fun".

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pikeyboy

2,014 posts

101 months

[news] 
Sunday 14th October 2012 quote quote all
Bitofbully said:
A site making excuses for people who think shooting animals is 'fun'?
Not so sure about that. Although yes shooting is fun, and yes I'm a memebr of the BASC.

As the OP has already mentioned the anti shooting people don't seem to be interested in how much work goes into cultivating the landscape and monitoring /controlling predators such that the birds have cover and the poults arent taken by foxes etc. As an aside lots of other wildlife also benefits from this. Game shooting is actually very diffrent to poultry farming and any comparisons are not really valid in my opinion. On a driven shoot a small percentage of birds aren't killed out right, these are despatached in a humaine method once retrieved if required.

shambolic

Original Poster:

959 posts

54 months

[news] 
Sunday 14th October 2012 quote quote all
boy said:
Not so sure about that. Although yes shooting is fun, and yes I'm a memebr of the BASC.

As the OP has already mentioned the anti shooting people don't seem to be interested in how much work goes into cultivating the landscape and monitoring /controlling predators such that the birds have cover and the poults arent taken by foxes etc. As an aside lots of other wildlife also benefits from this. Game shooting is actually very diffrent to poultry farming and any comparisons are not really valid in my opinion. On a driven shoot a small percentage of birds aren't killed out right, these are despatached in a humaine method once retrieved if required.
The shoot I work ones a small syndicate where the whole day is more than just about shooting birds, the guns all have a good lunch, a bit of banter and a good walk in the fresh air.
Anyway the dogs had a great 8 hour work out with Glen having two nice retrieves.
On the whole everyone had a cracking day.
Ps "only" 50 pheasants shot.
I dont agree with massive 200-300 bird days, ours is a lot smaller and all birds are used for our or dogs consumption.

Pps on average only 38-45% of total birds put down are shot
On our land we now have Black cock back which haven't bred there for over 20 years, and loads of other small song birds that the RSPB say are dieing out in other areas are now thriving due to our land management.


Upatdawn

1,723 posts

35 months

[news] 
Sunday 14th October 2012 quote quote all
shambolic said:
The shoot I work ones a small syndicate where the whole day is more than just about shooting birds, the guns all have a good lunch, a bit of banter and a good walk in the fresh air.
Anyway the dogs had a great 8 hour work out with Glen having two nice retrieves.
On the whole everyone had a cracking day.
Ps "only" 50 pheasants shot.
I dont agree with massive 200-300 bird days, ours is a lot smaller and all birds are used for our or dogs consumption.

Pps on average only 38-45% of total birds put down are shot
On our land we now have Black cock back which haven't bred there for over 20 years, and loads of other small song birds that the RSPB say are dieing out in other areas are now thriving due to our land management.
I find it peverse that the birds shot have usually been raised by estate staff/gamekeepers form eggs/chicks, housed in pens, handfed and them released to be blasted apart by a someone paying for a days fun.

We used to live near an estate who did just this, and every year dozens of birds were killed on the road adjacent to the estate as they couldnt be bothered to fence it off.

Also its not as if you need to be an ace-hunter to blast away at lumpy birds who arent 100% olympic flyers who have been flushed out of bushes using a cannon with a 3ft spread of shot at 300 yds is it...





Edited by Upatdawn on Sunday 14th October 16:42

pikeyboy

2,014 posts

101 months

[news] 
Sunday 14th October 2012 quote quote all
shambolic said:
The shoot I work ones a small syndicate where the whole day is more than just about shooting birds, the guns all have a good lunch, a bit of banter and a good walk in the fresh air.
Anyway the dogs had a great 8 hour work out with Glen having two nice retrieves.
On the whole everyone had a cracking day.
Ps "only" 50 pheasants shot.
I dont agree with massive 200-300 bird days, ours is a lot smaller and all birds are used for our or dogs consumption.

Pps on average only 38-45% of total birds put down are shot
On our land we now have Black cock back which haven't bred there for over 20 years, and loads of other small song birds that the RSPB say are dieing out in other areas are now thriving due to our land management.
Shambolic I'm with you all the way on this.

And if its so easy to hit a target with a cannon that has been flushed out by a line of beaters with sticks why are the bags so small. Have you actually tried hitting a clay pigeon never mind a pheasant.

On another point how do the non shooting people stand on shooting vermin like pigeons and corvids? These can do lots of damage to crops.

If the anti shooting people where as vociferous in their condemnation of coursing deer with dogs into the corner of a field I'd be a lot happier.

Upatdawn

1,723 posts

35 months

[news] 
Sunday 14th October 2012 quote quote all
boy said:
If the anti shooting people where as vociferous in their condemnation of coursing deer with dogs into the corner of a field I'd be a lot happier.
No animal should suffer fear, distress or torment just for anothers fun, id have thought that was obvious, assuming we wish to consider ourselves civilised.



ali_kat

26,968 posts

108 months

[news] 
Sunday 14th October 2012 quote quote all
Upatdawn said:
boy said:
If the anti shooting people where as vociferous in their condemnation of coursing deer with dogs into the corner of a field I'd be a lot happier.
No animal should suffer fear, distress or torment just for anothers fun, id have thought that was obvious, assuming we wish to consider ourselves civilised.
I'm assuming you are a strict vegan then?

whoami

9,782 posts

127 months

[news] 
Sunday 14th October 2012 quote quote all
ali_kat said:
Upatdawn said:
boy said:
If the anti shooting people where as vociferous in their condemnation of coursing deer with dogs into the corner of a field I'd be a lot happier.
No animal should suffer fear, distress or torment just for anothers fun, id have thought that was obvious, assuming we wish to consider ourselves civilised.
I'm assuming you are a strict vegan then?
Why would you think that?

Paddy_N_Murphy

16,265 posts

71 months

[news] 
Sunday 14th October 2012 quote quote all
I personally have the view on the shoot / kill issue that generally those who criticise typically know little, and secondly it does not affect ones life too much.
Whilst some may find distasteful, how is it that different to breeding / farming / other the likes of chickens, lamb, pork, beef for the supermarkets or food ?

ali_kat

26,968 posts

108 months

[news] 
Monday 15th October 2012 quote quote all
whoami said:
Why would you think that?
Because I misread fun as food paperbag

However, we (humans & animals) have always hunted for food. It has evolved into more humane methods by those that enjoy it looking for better ie more humane and so effective ways. Lock a vegan in a wooded area. How long before he is almost dead from eating the wrong green thing? How long before he then kills a rabbit? How long before he then devises ways of improving catching & killing & enjoys that thought process?

I could just boil it down to one simple point - there is a reason why certain animals & birds are referred to as Game wink

Because I'm in a foul mood, here is something else to chew on, kinda radical but heyho, it's how I bait vegans when they go off on one hehe

If you own/use/eat anything made in Asia, then by supporting their exports you condone animal cruelty. China, Japan, Korea etc have the worst records for animal rights, the way they treat thair pets, let alone treat livestock etc is the worst in the world. The only way to prove you are really an animal lover and do not condone cruetly in anyway shape of form is not only boycotting meat & animal by products, but also by boycotting countries that allow animal cruelty (on, and most of Europe & the USA don't have a brilliant record either).

In my humble opinion, that gives you no right to criticise others for enjoying eating meat (or walking their dogs a few times a year & killing some Game for dinner wink )

King Herald

19,631 posts

103 months

[news] 
Monday 15th October 2012 quote quote all
Paddy_N_Murphy said:
Whilst some may find distasteful, how is it that different to breeding / farming / other the likes of chickens, lamb, pork, beef for the supermarkets or food ?
Because breeding/killing for food and breeding/killing for fun, are two totally different things.

Hunters always seem to argue that point, to justify what they do, but none have ever managed to explain why they actually do it, why they like to kill an animal to death.

They don't do it to put food on the table, even though they may eat their kill after the day is over. And they argue that fact: "oh, we eat it afterwards".

But that is not why they kill animals.

Wilbur Smith gave a fairly good description of the hunters lust in one of his books, as he is actually a big game hunter, but no other hunter I've met ever has, they just give excuses, not reasons.

whoami

9,782 posts

127 months

[news] 
Monday 15th October 2012 quote quote all
ali_kat said:
whoami said:
Why would you think that?
Because I misread fun as food paperbag

However, we (humans & animals) have always hunted for food. It has evolved into more humane methods by those that enjoy it looking for better ie more humane and so effective ways. Lock a vegan in a wooded area. How long before he is almost dead from eating the wrong green thing? How long before he then kills a rabbit? How long before he then devises ways of improving catching & killing & enjoys that thought process?

I could just boil it down to one simple point - there is a reason why certain animals & birds are referred to as Game wink

Because I'm in a foul mood, here is something else to chew on, kinda radical but heyho, it's how I bait vegans when they go off on one hehe

If you own/use/eat anything made in Asia, then by supporting their exports you condone animal cruelty. China, Japan, Korea etc have the worst records for animal rights, the way they treat thair pets, let alone treat livestock etc is the worst in the world. The only way to prove you are really an animal lover and do not condone cruetly in anyway shape of form is not only boycotting meat & animal by products, but also by boycotting countries that allow animal cruelty (on, and most of Europe & the USA don't have a brilliant record either).

In my humble opinion, that gives you no right to criticise others for enjoying eating meat (or walking their dogs a few times a year & killing some Game for dinner wink )
As I said above, I am not condemning either side.

ali_kat

26,968 posts

108 months

[news] 
Monday 15th October 2012 quote quote all
I know wink

rofl I nearly quoted Wilbur Smith KH! However, I couldn't remember which book the passage I wanted was in, and would have ended up rereading all of them & forgetting what I was looking for (which might have been a good plan!!)

230TE

568 posts

73 months

[news] 
Monday 15th October 2012 quote quote all
King Herald said:
Because breeding/killing for food and breeding/killing for fun, are two totally different things.
In purely ethical terms, I don't think they are. Either it is morally acceptable to put your own species' interest ahead of those of other species, or it isn't. That idea (discriminating in favour of our own species) is at the core of the philosophy of 'animal rights'. Given that species which fail to put their own interests first tend not to last long enough to evolve, I cannot accept that it is morally wrong to discriminate in favour of humans at the expense of other species (for example, by eating them).

That does not justify cruelty to other species: I believe that we have a moral duty not to inflict unnecessary suffering on other animals, and I don't think you need to grant 'rights' to animals for that principle to apply. But in that case 'unnecessary' becomes a subjective value judgement which varies from one individual to another. Bottom line: if you don't like the idea of shooting pheasants, don't do it.

Karyn

6,003 posts

55 months

[news] 
Monday 15th October 2012 quote quote all
ali_kat said:
I know wink

rofl I nearly quoted Wilbur Smith KH! However, I couldn't remember which book the passage I wanted was in, and would have ended up rereading all of them & forgetting what I was looking for (which might have been a good plan!!)
Elephant Song, at a guess.



Edit - although I've just read KH's post... I don't think that's the one he's on about.

........ now I think about it more, it's infuriating! Although it could be any one of a number of descriptions of the hunter's lust. There's one where little Xhai kills something just after he's outcast... there's the springbok hunt in one of the early Courtney ones...

Edited by Karyn on Monday 15th October 14:48

ali_kat

26,968 posts

108 months

[news] 
Monday 15th October 2012 quote quote all
Noooo, it was a Ballentyne or Courtney (well, there is at least 16 for me to re-read!).
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