Tomorrow

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King Herald

23,501 posts

215 months

Monday 15th October 2012
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230TE said:
King Herald said:
Because breeding/killing for food and breeding/killing for fun, are two totally different things.
In purely ethical terms, I don't think they are. ........

........Bottom line: if you don't like the idea of shooting pheasants, don't do it.
Well, selective quoting neatly omits the basic jist of what I was saying and you nimbly sidestep my point: nobody can tell me why they like to go and kill animals for the sake of it.

Killing if you are hungry is acceptable, in my opinion, but killing for fun is not.

As for your last line, you could say the same about child abuse: If you don't like it, don't do it. And you could comfortably satisfy yourself by leaving it at that, rather than doing something about it if you saw it happening?

230TE

2,506 posts

185 months

Monday 15th October 2012
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King Herald said:
Well, selective quoting neatly omits the basic jist of what I was saying and you nimbly sidestep my point: nobody can tell me why they like to go and kill animals for the sake of it.
That's possibly because none of the people here who shoot, actually like to go and kill animals for the sake of killing. There are many reasons why an individual might derive pleasure from participating in a field sport: some enjoy the challenge of trying to hit a small, fast-moving and totally unpredictable target, developing their marksmanship skills. Some enjoy handling a beautifully made firearm - much like the enjoyment gained from driving something like an Aston DB5. Many of the shooters I know work their own gundogs, and get a great deal of pleasure from doing so. (Including, I suspect, the OP - nice dogs BTW.) Or it might be the companionship, or being out in the English countryside on a crisp, clear winter's morning. Or maybe the chance to satisfy the hunting instinct that is deeply rooted in the human psyche.

For most people it will be a combination of some or all of these things. What I have never yet met is someone who participates in these sports because they enjoy making animals die. Just because game shooting results in the death of pheasants, it does not follow that the death of the pheasants is the reason for taking part. That is no more logical than saying that because you eat steak, you must enjoy paying people to make cows die. Grasp that and you are well on the way to answering your own question.

King Herald said:
Killing if you are hungry is acceptable, in my opinion, but killing for fun is not.
I highlighted the important bit. If you can demonstrate that your opinion is more valid and important than mine, feel free to do so.

King Herald said:
As for your last line, you could say the same about child abuse: If you don't like it, don't do it. And you could comfortably satisfy yourself by leaving it at that, rather than doing something about it if you saw it happening?
Children are the same species as the rest of us: therefore, in the context of this particular discussion, your point is irrelevant. Is there an equivalent of Godwin's Law to describe the way people opposed to field sports always end up talking about child abuse? Of course you are free to campaign against game shooting, write to your MP, go on marches, write letters to your local paper etc. If it were not for that kind of action, we would probably still have bear baiting in this country. Public sentiment changes over time, and perhaps a few years from now our descendants will regard pheasant shooting in the same way that we now see the fighting 'sports' of the eighteenth century. I rather hope not.

Must go off now and feed the foxhounds. Tally-ho!

(I don't actually own a pack of foxhounds, but wish I did. Beautiful animals.)

King Herald

23,501 posts

215 months

Monday 15th October 2012
quotequote all
230TE said:
King Herald said:
Well, selective quoting neatly omits the basic jist of what I was saying and you nimbly sidestep my point: nobody can tell me why they like to go and kill animals for the sake of it.
That's possibly because none of the people here who shoot, actually like to go and kill animals for the sake of killing.


Oh come on. This is exactly what I am talking about, there is always an excuse for it, never a proper answer. If they don't like why are they going on a shoot??? How about clay pigeon shooting instead?

230TE said:
King Herald said:
Killing if you are hungry is acceptable, in my opinion, but killing for fun is not.
I highlighted the important bit. If you can demonstrate that your opinion is more valid and important than mine, feel free to do so.
I'm merely rendering my pinion and asking a question: Why do people like to kill animals.

230TE said:
King Herald said:
As for your last line, you could say the same about child abuse: If you don't like it, don't do it. And you could comfortably satisfy yourself by leaving it at that, rather than doing something about it if you saw it happening?
Children are the same species as the rest of us: therefore, in the context of this particular discussion, your point is irrelevant.....

......ust go off now and feed the foxhounds. Tally-ho!

(I don't actually own a pack of foxhounds, but wish I did. Beautiful animals.)
I'm not talking about children, that was just an emotive point I threw in to demonstrate your obtuse and immature response.

Better go and lock up my family of pet foxes for the night. hehe

Edited by King Herald on Monday 15th October 20:42

230TE

2,506 posts

185 months

Tuesday 16th October 2012
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King Herald said:
Oh come on. This is exactly what I am talking about, there is always an excuse for it, never a proper answer. If they don't like why are they going on a shoot??? How about clay pigeon shooting instead?
I think the problem here is that you have a fixed preconception, that game shooters are motivated by bloodlust. If someone tells you something that does not fit with that preconception, you dismiss it as wrong. You appear to be waiting for someone to tell you why they get such a thrill out of making little creatures die, and I am afraid you are going to be in for a long wait.

Phud

1,262 posts

142 months

Tuesday 16th October 2012
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For me there is a difference between the hunt and the killing.

No hunter I know; enjoys the blood-lust of killing, however the skill in hunting and tracking, that is where the difference comes in. Getting yourself into the best position for a clean kill or raising your skill level to deliver a clean shoot at a passing bird is the objective.

If you know of somebody who claims to hunt but hunts only for the kill then I would say that there is a possibility that there is a deeper issue here.

I kill, it is only for the pot and hope after a hunt to deliver an accurate shot which will be a clean kill. I can use skills that have arisen from my hunting for either a camera or a weapon.

If you blast away, either rifle or shotgun, a few thing normally happen, the prey bugger off, or everybody else thinks you are a danger and tries to remove you from the shoot.

It is only my thought, but understanding how food ends up on the table is becoming a thing of the past, understanding the killing aspect should mean you respect meat and hope it has been treated well. Having game or any meat should not be a detached process, and yes a harsh reality is things die for humans who wish to to eat them.

Final part from me, where is by-catch in this conversation? I ask because many people eat fish, however it seems that by-catch is not mentioned.

King Herald

23,501 posts

215 months

Tuesday 16th October 2012
quotequote all
230TE said:
King Herald said:
Oh come on. This is exactly what I am talking about, there is always an excuse for it, never a proper answer. If they don't like why are they going on a shoot??? How about clay pigeon shooting instead?
I think the problem here is that you have a fixed preconception, that game shooters are motivated by bloodlust. If someone tells you something that does not fit with that preconception, you dismiss it as wrong. You appear to be waiting for someone to tell you why they get such a thrill out of making little creatures die, and I am afraid you are going to be in for a long wait.
Whatever the 'real' reason hunters/shooters congregate and spend so much time and effort putting together their day, it is penultimately based on the animal dying.

I've never found a hunter yet who will/can tell me why they like shooting/killing/hunting animals. Why is it so hard to explain the urge, the need, to shoot a deer or pigeon, or elephant, or pheasant? Why not photograph it, or simply just watch it? Why the need to destroy it?

Why not track it through the desert/jungle/woods, then make it your mission to slap it on the arse and run away? But no, putting a bullet in its head is the goal of the event.

And I'm not some staunch 'save the whale', tree hugging, lentil weaving, hunt saboteur type person. I'm just truly curious why people like to kill animals. Why is it so hard to find someone who can tell me?

230TE

2,506 posts

185 months

Tuesday 16th October 2012
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King Herald said:
I've never found a hunter yet who will/can tell me why they like shooting/killing/hunting animals. Why is it so hard to explain the urge, the need, to shoot a deer or pigeon, or elephant, or pheasant? Why not photograph it, or simply just watch it? Why the need to destroy it?
I think that if you are trying to look at this at the deepest level, it comes down to the hunting instinct (which we all have to some degree) and the way that we as individuals seek to satisfy that instinct. The most obvious way being by, er, hunting. You are right in the sense that the pleasure I get from any field sport cannot be purely explained in terms of having a nice day out in the countryside with my mates. I don't think that makes me a bad or evil person (although the loony-toons animal rights moonbats would disagree with that). Instincts cannot easily be explained or rationalised: the question which remains is whether it is morally acceptable to satisfy that instinct, or not. In ethical terms, I don't have a problem with taking the life of a non-human animal for my own benefit, but it should not be done frivolously or in a manner that prolongs the suffering of that animal any more than can be avoided.


mrmaggit

10,146 posts

247 months

Tuesday 16th October 2012
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230TE said:
King Herald said:
I've never found a hunter yet who will/can tell me why they like shooting/killing/hunting animals. Why is it so hard to explain the urge, the need, to shoot a deer or pigeon, or elephant, or pheasant? Why not photograph it, or simply just watch it? Why the need to destroy it?
I think that if you are trying to look at this at the deepest level, it comes down to the hunting instinct (which we all have to some degree) and the way that we as individuals seek to satisfy that instinct. The most obvious way being by, er, hunting. You are right in the sense that the pleasure I get from any field sport cannot be purely explained in terms of having a nice day out in the countryside with my mates. I don't think that makes me a bad or evil person (although the loony-toons animal rights moonbats would disagree with that). Instincts cannot easily be explained or rationalised: the question which remains is whether it is morally acceptable to satisfy that instinct, or not. In ethical terms, I don't have a problem with taking the life of a non-human animal for my own benefit, but it should not be done frivolously or in a manner that prolongs the suffering of that animal any more than can be avoided.
Again, why the need to kill? You could use exactly the same skill set to take a picture, but no, the animal/bird/whatever has to die. That is the answer/explanation that we are waiting to hear.

I will describe my cathartic moment.

I used to hunt rabbits and water rats with our dogs when I was a lad. One day, well actually it was a morning, we caught and killed eight rabbits, then two more in the afternoon. It was all done with Petra (the dog) and me armed with stones. Mostly they were Myxy infected, but some weren't. We also caught a pheasant completely by surprise (all of us, including the pheasant!), but i stopped when one day I hit a water vole (I thought it was a rat to start with) in the back, breaking it. Petra was across the other side of the field, and the water vole died in agony. I stopped then and there. For me it was the thrill of the chase (as has been said before), but that water vole made me think exactly what sort of person I was at the time. I was ashamed of myself, and have never hunted in any form since.

In fact, I have gone the other way, and will put myself in harms way to defend animals and birds from humans.

maggit

Simpo Two

85,150 posts

264 months

Tuesday 16th October 2012
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I have no view on hunting, although generally I prefer freedom of choice to excessive legislation. So how about this:

People who like hunting go and hunt.

People who don't, do something else. Lots of other things to do.

Would that work?

sleep envy

62,260 posts

248 months

Tuesday 16th October 2012
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King Herald said:
Whatever the 'real' reason hunters/shooters congregate and spend so much time and effort putting together their day, it is penultimately based on the animal dying.

I've never found a hunter yet who will/can tell me why they like shooting/killing/hunting animals. Why is it so hard to explain the urge, the need, to shoot a deer or pigeon, or elephant, or pheasant? Why not photograph it, or simply just watch it? Why the need to destroy it?

Why not track it through the desert/jungle/woods, then make it your mission to slap it on the arse and run away? But no, putting a bullet in its head is the goal of the event.

And I'm not some staunch 'save the whale', tree hugging, lentil weaving, hunt saboteur type person. I'm just truly curious why people like to kill animals. Why is it so hard to find someone who can tell me?
They are telling you, you just refuse to accept the answer because it doesn't fall in line with your opinion.

I've been shooting for over 20 years. There have been days that I've gone home without having had one shot and there have been days that I've not been able to get cartridges in the barrels quick enough. Both types of days are equally enjoyable - I spend a long day out in the countryside, have a good walk, some great food and have a laugh with some friends.

I don't take glee in killing any animal, however, I do enjoy the result once it's been in the pot. TBH I feel even worse cooking lobster (although I do put them in the freezer for a few hours so they're asleep before they get dropped into the pot).

Try to put aside the preconception that people who hunt (either by shotgun, fishing rod or spear) are driven by blood lust and have to kill everything in their sight. It just isn't true.

Bitofbully

394 posts

138 months

Tuesday 16th October 2012
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sleep envy said:
Try to put aside the preconception that people who hunt (either by shotgun, fishing rod or spear) are driven by blood lust and have to kill everything in their sight. It just isn't true.
Thing is, it all comes down to enjoying shooting living animals. By my reckoning, that's just not right.

King Herald

23,501 posts

215 months

Tuesday 16th October 2012
quotequote all
sleep envy said:
King Herald said:
Whatever the 'real' reason hunters/shooters congregate and spend so much time and effort putting together their day, it is penultimately based on the animal dying.

I've never found a hunter yet who will/can tell me why they like shooting/killing/hunting animals. Why is it so hard to explain the urge, the need, to shoot a deer or pigeon, or elephant, or pheasant? Why not photograph it, or simply just watch it? Why the need to destroy it?

Why not track it through the desert/jungle/woods, then make it your mission to slap it on the arse and run away? But no, putting a bullet in its head is the goal of the event.

And I'm not some staunch 'save the whale', tree hugging, lentil weaving, hunt saboteur type person. I'm just truly curious why people like to kill animals. Why is it so hard to find someone who can tell me?
They are telling you, you just refuse to accept the answer because it doesn't fall in line with your opinion.

I've been shooting for over 20 years. There have been days that I've gone home without having had one shot and there have been days that I've not been able to get cartridges in the barrels quick enough. Both types of days are equally enjoyable - I spend a long day out in the countryside, have a good walk, some great food and have a laugh with some friends.

I don't take glee in killing any animal, however, I do enjoy the result once it's been in the pot. TBH I feel even worse cooking lobster (although I do put them in the freezer for a few hours so they're asleep before they get dropped into the pot).

Try to put aside the preconception that people who hunt (either by shotgun, fishing rod or spear) are driven by blood lust and have to kill everything in their sight. It just isn't true.
Oh give me a break, another 'but I eat it afterwards' explanation.


I shall just assume that people are following some inner instinct and don't really understand why they like to kill. That can be the only explanation, as 230TE mentioned earlier. All the guff about a fun day out is merely frilling out the story.

Agrispeed

988 posts

158 months

Tuesday 16th October 2012
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Can't we just have one thread with people who enjoy it, and another thread for the antis?

King Herald

23,501 posts

215 months

Tuesday 16th October 2012
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Agrispeed said:
Can't we just have one thread with people who enjoy it, and another thread for the antis?
And one for people who wonder why? hehe

sleep envy

62,260 posts

248 months

Tuesday 16th October 2012
quotequote all
King Herald said:
Oh give me a break, another 'but I eat it afterwards' explanation.


I shall just assume that people are following some inner instinct and don't really understand why they like to kill. That can be the only explanation, as 230TE mentioned earlier. All the guff about a fun day out is merely frilling out the story.
Once again, you're proving the point of not accepting an opinion different to yours.

sleep envy

62,260 posts

248 months

Tuesday 16th October 2012
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Bitofbully said:
sleep envy said:
Try to put aside the preconception that people who hunt (either by shotgun, fishing rod or spear) are driven by blood lust and have to kill everything in their sight. It just isn't true.
Thing is, it all comes down to enjoying shooting living animals. By my reckoning, that's just not right.
I can't say that'll bother me too much next weekend.

Simpo Two

85,150 posts

264 months

Tuesday 16th October 2012
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One might suggest that man is programmed to hunt. If we hadn't been, we'd have been extinct millions of years ago, and so unable to moralise about it. And so perhaps man hunts as a cat plays with a mouse. We don't NEED to do it any more, but we do it.

Bitofbully

394 posts

138 months

Tuesday 16th October 2012
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Simpo Two said:
One might suggest that man is programmed to hunt. If we hadn't been, we'd have been extinct millions of years ago, and so unable to moralise about it. And so perhaps man hunts as a cat plays with a mouse. We don't NEED to do it any more, but we do it.
Maybe some of us have progressed beyond the cave wink

sleep envy

62,260 posts

248 months

Tuesday 16th October 2012
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Bitofbully said:
Maybe some of us have progressed beyond the cave wink
And those in Bury still live in hope wink

Trommel

18,988 posts

258 months

Tuesday 16th October 2012
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Bitofbully said:
Maybe some of us have progressed beyond the cave
Regressed more like, unless your idea of progress is letting others kill your food for you at a safe distance whilst trying to moralise to those who have a better understanding of how it works.

Or are you a strict ethical vegan?