Tomorrow

[Bitofbully]

Trommel said:

Bitofbully said:

Maybe some of us have progressed beyond the cave

Regressed more like, unless your idea of progress is letting others kill your food for you at a safe distance whilst trying to moralise to those who have a better understanding of how it works.

Or are you a strict ethical vegan?

My food comes from sources where animal welfare is guaranteed, with a humane kill.

Not from some tweed wearing loony with a shot gun who likes shooting stuff for fun, with no control over the effectiveness of the shot.

[Trommel]

Bitofbully said:

My food comes from sources where animal welfare is guaranteed, with a humane kill.

Not from some tweed wearing loony with a shot gun who likes shooting stuff for fun, with no control over the effectiveness of the shot.

So you're a hypocrite.

I can tell you from first-hand experience which animal generally has the more unpleasant death and it's not the farmed one, no matter how much care is taken over its welfare.

[Bitofbully]

Trommel said:

So you're a hypocrite.

I can tell you from first-hand experience which animal generally has the more unpleasant death and it's not the farmed one, no matter how much care is taken over its welfare.

Have you ever stood with a slaughter an as he dispatches a large animal?

I have. It's clean, instant and a hell of a lot more humane than chasing frightened birds into the sky to take pot shots at them.

[Trommel]

Bitofbully said:

Have you ever stood with a slaughter an as he dispatches a large animal?

I've been in an abattoir, yes.

Have you ever considered what it has been through to get to that point? I can guarantee that it's more stressful/traumatic/frightening/whatever than a bird taking flight just like it does every single other time it's disturbed.

I suspect most opposing viewpoints are far more to do with preconceptions than actually considering what might be cruel or wrong or immoral or whatever.

[bexVN]

There is no way an animal in a slaughterhouse dies not feel fear. You could scrub the place from top to bottom between each kill and they'll still know it's a place of death.

Believe me the moral issues of how animals are killed has torn me apart for a long time. I gave up meat on welfare grounds not because I didn't agree with animals being eaten. I still think a days hunting for a bird that will be eaten and has been bred for the event is acceptable compared to the many ways we kill animals (and for large animals the stun doesn't always work) Don't get me wrong I wouldn't do it unless starvation forced me.

[Simpo Two]

Bitofbully said:

Not from some tweed wearing loony

Whoops, a bit of class issue showing there.

[Bacardi]

Well this is my thoughts on it from a gun owning onetime vegetarian.

I ate fish but didn't eat land based meat for about 18 years. I have been eating meat again for the last 5 years. I stopped, because a friend did, for the moral reasons, but I had just gone off the taste. I'm an animal lover and have always cared about animal welfare and their quality of life. During my time not eating meat I came across lots of hypocrisy, for instance one time I got in to conversation with full on veggies at a function. They tried to persuade me to give up fish as well and were being quite belligerent about it... until I pointed out the lovely leather boots she was wearing! Likewise a work colleague is full on veggie but drove a car with leather seats...

I once had to document chickens bred by Buxted who spent their entire lives (28 miserable days!) in a shed, never ever seeing the light of day. Also documented the food production process. After the stress of being crated up and transported to place of execution, their end was to be hung up by the legs dangling off a conveyor flapping their way to electrocution before having their throats cut. This was some years ago, so if the practice has changed to more humane methods, then great! I also watched the show (about 6 years ago?) where Gordon Ramsey, out of respect for his pigs, went to watch their slaughter, again, transported, electrocuted, hung up by back legs and throats cut. Lots of squealing, the pigs were obviously stressed. Apparently after being stunned they didn't feel anything (how does anyone know?) Not pleasant at all!

So I would rather be a free range pheasant. Where I work in the countryside (ironically in a converted chicken shed), they have shoots in the adjacent fields which I do watch, very rarely does a bird hit the ground still alive and if they do, seem to die of shock very quickly. The tweed wearing loons do not take some pleasure from taking an animals life (BTW, I'm totally against fox hunting with dogs where the sole reason is to kill the animal, but that's another debate). The shooters derive pleasure from their skill with the gun and to give a clean a kill as possible so the animal doesn't suffer! Moreover, many birds live to enjoy another day, week, year, at least they have a sporting chance, when you are carted off to the abattoir, this doesn't happen.

I only shoot clays (badly, so would want to be a good shot for game), but perhaps everyone who eats meat should kill their own food? Rather than like a lot of kids these days who think it just comes wrapped in cellophane off a shelf in Tesco. I have an uncle and cousins in the States who hunt dear and elk. Again their skill is to stalk and hunt the game and give it as clean a kill as possible. They eat what they shoot. Hunting licenses are very limited to ensure stocks are kept high. Just like deer in the Highlands, they are managed. Most importantly the animals have great quality of life and suffer no stress of even being transported to an abattoir.

So I'm a meat eater again and it has been interesting voyage of discovery. I don't like the idea of taking lives uneccesarily and don't understand the idea that people just want to do it to get pleasure from killing things! (although if you stuck Tony Blair and Gordon Brown, not to mention most of the Euro Politicos in front of me, I may feel differently)

My 2p, YMMV....

[King Herald]

sleep envy said:

King Herald said:

Oh give me a break, another 'but I eat it afterwards' explanation.


I shall just assume that people are following some inner instinct and don't really understand why they like to kill. That can be the only explanation, as 230TE mentioned earlier. All the guff about a fun day out is merely frilling out the story.

Once again, you're proving the point of not accepting an opinion different to yours.

Nobody has rendered any opinions, just excuses.

[sleep envy]

King Herald said:

Nobody has rendered any opinions, just excuses.

Put the belligerence to one side and read my post again, you've even highlighted the main plank yet still steadfastly refuse to accept it.

[Bitofbully]

Simpo Two said:

Bitofbully said:

Not from some tweed wearing loony

Whoops, a bit of class issue showing there.

I think that says more about you than about me... tweed is tweed, it's worn by chavs, it's worn by royalty, it's worn by farmers and history teachers. I can't really think of anything much more 'classless'. But it is worn by the shooting community, so 'tweed wearing, gun toting loony' is an accurate statement.

[bexVN]

Bacardi-good read and good to see someone who can see it as I do (as an ex veggie based on welfare reasons)

[pikeyboy]

Bitofbully said:

I think that says more about you than about me... tweed is tweed, it's worn by chavs, it's worn by royalty, it's worn by farmers and history teachers. I can't really think of anything much more 'classless'. But it is worn by the shooting community, so 'tweed wearing, gun toting loony' is an accurate statement.

Tweed is my favourite colour. I'd just like to confrim you aren't allowed a shotgun ticket if you are anything close to being or have been a loony. Thus I think this part of your post is incorrect although I get the gist of your point.

[whoami]

boy said:

Tweed is my favourite colour. I'd just like to confrim you aren't allowed a shotgun ticket if you are anything close to being or have been a loony. Thus I think this part of your post is incorrect although I get the gist of your point.

Mmm. Not sure I'd agree with that.

[Simpo Two]

Bitofbully said:

I think that says more about you than about me... tweed is tweed, it's worn by chavs, it's worn by royalty, it's worn by farmers and history teachers. I can't really think of anything much more 'classless'. But it is worn by the shooting community, so 'tweed wearing, gun toting loony' is an accurate statement.

It was your use of the word 'loony' (sic) and its association that spoiled your argument, which up to that point was fair. Lunatics are not allowed to own guns, and if everyone wears tweed, why mention it?

[Bacardi]

Thanks Becky

A few more thoughts....

Tweed. I've never thought of it has chavy, maybe round your way, but where I live it's all hoodies, track suits and Elizabeth Duke. I'll agree that it is classless, but worn and associated with the countryside from farm labourers to the gentry. I don't own any, but do have a very tatty Barbour, so guess that makes me some sort of toff.

I'm having a bit of trouble understanding the attitude of some meat eaters here and their obsession with how an animal 'dies', 'humanely'. In a perfect world everyone and everything would exit this life peacefully and painlessly, the trouble is we don't live in that world and sometimes life can be, and often is, nasty, brutal and short. Unfortunately, this will not change.

So, Pheasants, they have been bred and eaten for centuries. Do the meat eating people who have a problem with them being shot think...

a) There should be a complete ban on pheasant shooting, the rearing of pheasants and associated conservation of forestry and livelihoods of gamekeepers and deny life to the pheasant who would not of existed in the first place?

b) Rather than the scatter gun approach, should only be shot with a clean headshot with a .22 as they hang around the side of the lanes (walking in front of cars), have you seen how their heads bob? How good a shot are you?

c) Be factory reared, maybe in broiler houses, to ensure they can have the most humane death (never mind their quality of life)?

d) Rather than shoot them, perhaps they should be trapped in nets and the taken somewhere where they can by 'black' lighted, then CO2 to gas them as they sleep? (Can't see that working on the stress grounds).

A shot gun and pellets are the best way to ensure the most humane kill to a free, wild, bird, that I know of....?

Some people seem to live in some rose tinted world. I have a couple of young cats and as dear as they are, I get upset when they bring presents of mice, or have have to rescue a frog or toad which squeaks its distress.

Although we live near the top of the food chain we are no less animals in a food chain. If I decide to swim off the coast of Queensland and a Tiger or Great White decides to chomp my legs off, will it hurt? Yes, tough st! Or should I have the right to black light and CO2?

Edited by Bacardi on Thursday 18th October 00:30

[Phud]

Bacardi said:

Thanks Becky

I'm having a bit of trouble understanding the attitude of some meat eaters here and their obsession with how an animal 'dies', 'humanely'. In a perfect world everyone and everything would exit this life peacefully and painlessly, the trouble is we don't live in that world and sometimes life can be, and often is, nasty, brutal and short. Unfortunately, this will not change.

So, Pheasants, they have been bred and eaten for centuries. Do the meat eating people who have a problem with them being shot think...

a) There should be a complete ban on pheasant shooting, the rearing of pheasants and associated conservation of forestry and livelihoods of gamekeepers and deny life to the pheasant who would not of existed in the first place?

b) Rather than the scatter gun approach, should only be shot with a clean headshot with a .22 as they hang around the side of the lanes (walking in front of cars), have you seen how their heads bob? How good a shot are you?

c) Be factory reared, maybe in broiler houses, to ensure they can have the most humane death (never mind their quality of life)?

d) Rather than shoot them, perhaps they should be trapped in nets and the taken somewhere where they can by 'black' lighted, then CO2 to gas them as they sleep? (Can't see that working on the stress grounds).

A shot gun and pellets are the best way to ensure the most humane kill to a free, wild, bird, that I know of....?

Edited by Bacardi on Thursday 18th October 00:30

Bacardi,a good post, from my own approach, when shooting, since I have decided to take an animals life, I feel that I should make sure that I have the cleanest shot I can. Trying to deliver quick kill, use the correct calibre for my quarry. So maybe humanely should be take as quickly and efficiently taking my decision to kill something, accept it and try to be respectful of the life I am taking. Which does not mean I have a blood lust, I think.

Your point on the knowledge of the end to end food process, well that's could be a new post all together

[shambolic]

On the tweed thing, I think you will find I wear tweed breeks as they are just about the best hard woven material for the walking through gorse and whin bushes.
More function over style.
Don't own a tweed jacket, just decent gore tex technical gear or a proper waxed Barbour. Again function over style. My wife does own a tweed jacket that she wears on shooting days but on a beating day she wears rough as gear the same as the rest of us.
Ps she is a fully paid up member of the RSPB and sees the benefits to the bloody hard work we all put in to the land every week.

[shambolic]

And as someone kindly said earlier I get more enjoyment of the whole experience of my dogs hunting, flushing and then retrieving the game that is shot. I probably get 10 times the enjoyment of my dog finding a shot bird in heavy cover than the actual shooting of it TBH.
Oh and the dogs totally and absolutely love their shooting day and go berserk on the morning of a shoot with excitement.
So I'm more into watching the fruition of months and months of hard work training my dogs (what they are bred for)) and the enjoyment they get from it too.

[pacman1]

Simpo Two said:

Bitofbully said:

I think that says more about you than about me... tweed is tweed, it's worn by chavs, it's worn by royalty, it's worn by farmers and history teachers. I can't really think of anything much more 'classless'. But it is worn by the shooting community, so 'tweed wearing, gun toting loony' is an accurate statement.

It was your use of the word 'loony' (sic) and its association that spoiled your argument, which up to that point was fair. Lunatics are not allowed to own guns, and if everyone wears tweed, why mention it?

Indeed. Shakey arguments lead to troll like tendancies.

[Bitofbully]

I'm still waiting to hear a decent pro-shooting argument.

All I hear are people making excuses for their blood lust.

'Oh, it's about conservation'

'It's so I can see my dogs doing what they were bred for'

'I like the walks in the countryside'

All of the above can be done without blasting birds out of the air.

The conservation etc., are just justifications for the shoot, or only done so the shoot can take place.

Therefore, people who shoot are only doing it because they like blasting birds with a pretty primitive and nasty weapon.

But we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one, as I feel it's time to step away from the debate.