Cruciate ligament rupture in dogs
Discussion
Hiya,
Our lurcher, Poppy, appears to have ruptured her cranial cruciate ligament this morning while on her walk. She's been near-comatose all day after an injection of Vetergesic, and the vet wants us to go back in on Friday for another look. We'll then decide on surgery, although it's looking very likely she'll need it.
She's almost 4 (we think - rescue dog) and in very good health normally, very fit and loves her running. She won't be doing any of that for a while.
The vet has talked me through the advantages and disadvantages of MMP surgery vs. the lateral suture procedure vs. no intervention, but I was wondering whether anyone on here has any experience of the two different procedures? (No intervention isn't really going to be an option.)
Anyway, any info you can impart would be gratefully accepted. Thanks.
Our lurcher, Poppy, appears to have ruptured her cranial cruciate ligament this morning while on her walk. She's been near-comatose all day after an injection of Vetergesic, and the vet wants us to go back in on Friday for another look. We'll then decide on surgery, although it's looking very likely she'll need it.
She's almost 4 (we think - rescue dog) and in very good health normally, very fit and loves her running. She won't be doing any of that for a while.
The vet has talked me through the advantages and disadvantages of MMP surgery vs. the lateral suture procedure vs. no intervention, but I was wondering whether anyone on here has any experience of the two different procedures? (No intervention isn't really going to be an option.)
Anyway, any info you can impart would be gratefully accepted. Thanks.
Jasandjules said:
If you are near Ipswich I can recommend a place to get the surgery done...
I can't advise as to which is best, but perhaps consider that one is newer...
Thanks for the offer, but we're near Reading. I can't advise as to which is best, but perhaps consider that one is newer...
I was thinking of the newer option (MMP), to be honest. The recovery is apparently more obvious immediately after surgery, which isn't the case with the lateral suture. But if anyone has any info on either method, please post it!
SGirl said:
Thanks for the offer, but we're near Reading.
I was thinking of the newer option (MMP), to be honest. The recovery is apparently more obvious immediately after surgery, which isn't the case with the lateral suture. But if anyone has any info on either method, please post it!
Ok, I was thinking of the newer option (MMP), to be honest. The recovery is apparently more obvious immediately after surgery, which isn't the case with the lateral suture. But if anyone has any info on either method, please post it!
We had the old option the first time, the recovery was very slow and laborious (including walking the dog 1min at a time about eight times a day, then going up to 2mins, and so on for weeks and weeks).
The second time we used MMP and when we went to pick up the dog, she was actually able to use the car ramp to get into the back of the car. Oh, the recovery was pretty fast too.
Also, the first OP said she can never go offlead again, second OP we were told no offlead exercise for a month or so.. She spent many years walking off lead....
Jasandjules said:
Ok,
We had the old option the first time, the recovery was very slow and laborious (including walking the dog 1min at a time about eight times a day, then going up to 2mins, and so on for weeks and weeks).
The second time we used MMP and when we went to pick up the dog, she was actually able to use the car ramp to get into the back of the car. Oh, the recovery was pretty fast too.
Also, the first OP said she can never go offlead again, second OP we were told no offlead exercise for a month or so.. She spent many years walking off lead....
Brilliant, just the info I need. Thanks very much for that. The choice is obvious, then - it has to be MMP. She'd hate never being off the lead ever again.We had the old option the first time, the recovery was very slow and laborious (including walking the dog 1min at a time about eight times a day, then going up to 2mins, and so on for weeks and weeks).
The second time we used MMP and when we went to pick up the dog, she was actually able to use the car ramp to get into the back of the car. Oh, the recovery was pretty fast too.
Also, the first OP said she can never go offlead again, second OP we were told no offlead exercise for a month or so.. She spent many years walking off lead....
the advice that a dog can never go off lead again is such crap. Even if a dog was allowed to heal or attempt healing by nature's scarring, is poor. It's what I got taught but nature can do wonders. Would I choose to allow my friends to heal by choice by scarring.....no. And the potential for rapid mending with less longterm damage means that a lot of advanced techniques can do so much more than we are used to, but don't think that nature can't also do some amazing stuff. Some ACL ruptures are best managed by conservative means, most are not, so, you should get what you pay for, but also don't always believe black and white. Not much help without an hours talk over the options, but that should be up to your vet.
Whatever method you choose I would strongly recommend a good hydrotherapy/ physiotherapy rehab centre to improve level of recovery, reduce risk of weight gain and strengthen other leg to try and avoid it happening in that one.
When this happens in young fit (and presumably not overweight) dogs there is more risk of it occurring in the other leg unless it was a truly freak traumatic injury over a possible weakness.
I hope all goes well with everything.
When this happens in young fit (and presumably not overweight) dogs there is more risk of it occurring in the other leg unless it was a truly freak traumatic injury over a possible weakness.
I hope all goes well with everything.
Thevet said:
the advice that a dog can never go off lead again is such crap. Even if a dog was allowed to heal or attempt healing by nature's scarring, is poor. It's what I got taught but nature can do wonders. Would I choose to allow my friends to heal by choice by scarring.....no. And the potential for rapid mending with less longterm damage means that a lot of advanced techniques can do so much more than we are used to, but don't think that nature can't also do some amazing stuff. Some ACL ruptures are best managed by conservative means, most are not, so, you should get what you pay for, but also don't always believe black and white. Not much help without an hours talk over the options, but that should be up to your vet.
Thanks Tim. That's a relief! Poppy lives for her off-lead runs, it would be awful if she couldn't enjoy them any more. I had a long chat with our vet yesterday, she presented me with the MMP vs. lateral suture vs. natural healing options IF Poppy's checkup on Friday does confirm a damaged cruciate ligament. Poppy isn't as spaced out as she was yesterday, and she even managed a waggy tail a couple of times today, but she's doing her best to avoid putting any weight on her leg on that side and she's clearly in pain. She had a dose of Metacam this morning and since then nothing apart from food and water - and of course, her food intake has been cut to prevent her piling on weight while she's near enough immobile. Normally she has two good runs a day and sleeps the rest of the time.Money isn't the deciding factor in this case - we just want what's best for our dog, the option that'll give her the best chance of a reasonably normal life. I think we're leaning towards MMP at the moment as that seems to offer the best recovery rate. But of course, at this stage we don't know exactly what we're dealing with - but we'll have more idea after Friday's checkup. Our vet is very good and we can trust her to be honest with us, but it's a good idea to have as many opinions as possible so that we can make an informed decision.
bexVN said:
Whatever method you choose I would strongly recommend a good hydrotherapy/ physiotherapy rehab centre to improve level of recovery, reduce risk of weight gain and strengthen other leg to try and avoid it happening in that one.
When this happens in young fit (and presumably not overweight) dogs there is more risk of it occurring in the other leg unless it was a truly freak traumatic injury over a possible weakness.
I hope all goes well with everything.
Thanks Bex, I was thinking of physiotherapy or hydrotherapy. I'll do some research on local practitioners - I know there's a hydrotherapy centre not far from here, but Poppy isn't much of a one for water so the question is whether it wouldn't stress her out more than straightforward physiotherapy. Might give it a go and see how she gets on when the time comes, anyway.When this happens in young fit (and presumably not overweight) dogs there is more risk of it occurring in the other leg unless it was a truly freak traumatic injury over a possible weakness.
I hope all goes well with everything.
I was thinking about the possibility of a congenital defect - we know nothing about her background, although we did have a doggy DNA test done when she first came to us, just because we wanted to know.
Lurchers are prone to injuring themselves in all manner of stupid ways (she managed two X-rays in one month due to being a lunatic while out playing, fortunately no long-term damage though), so while nobody saw the accident happen I suspect she either caught a toe in a hole or on some undergrowth, or she slipped on mud while trying to reach a squirrel. She's not overweight (yet, anyway!). She's been very fit up to now, I suspect it's going to take some effort to keep her weight down. She was spayed at 6 months as per the requirements of the Dogs Trust, she put on a little bit of weight then but only a kilo or two over her ideal weight, and she soon lost that. So a congenital defect seems likely - I'll do some more reading up on the problem.
Thanks all for your help and advice, I appreciate it.
Wtf! I have never ever known cruciate surgery to cost anywhere near that much, even on the largest dogs or with complications!!
Re: hydro on a water phobic dog, they will take their time and usually use a treadmill rather than swim. A good place will never force a dog to do more than they are comfortable with (my Jimmy whippet was not a water dog at all but accepted the treadmill well with a bit of patience initially)
Re: hydro on a water phobic dog, they will take their time and usually use a treadmill rather than swim. A good place will never force a dog to do more than they are comfortable with (my Jimmy whippet was not a water dog at all but accepted the treadmill well with a bit of patience initially)
Been there, done that!
With total full recovery I'm glad to say!
Our retriever tore her cruciate ligament and undertook TPLO surgery (google that) at East Neuk Vets in Fife (apparently specialists in this type of surgery). I was very, very worried! The surgery took place in October 2013 and although recuperation was a 3 month stretch it was definitely worth it. Sula, our flatcoat retriever, was a little cautious for almost a year and although off lead she still seemed to be more careful than before. However the past few months she's gone bonkers! It's like she's had a new lease of life, she runs around, leaps over things, chases squirrels, gives me a heart-attack every time she does things!
I honestly never thought I'd see her back to normal but she is.
Wishing you all the best whatever you choose.
All in the cost was about 3K. I'd have paid it no matter what but luckily we were insured.
With total full recovery I'm glad to say!
Our retriever tore her cruciate ligament and undertook TPLO surgery (google that) at East Neuk Vets in Fife (apparently specialists in this type of surgery). I was very, very worried! The surgery took place in October 2013 and although recuperation was a 3 month stretch it was definitely worth it. Sula, our flatcoat retriever, was a little cautious for almost a year and although off lead she still seemed to be more careful than before. However the past few months she's gone bonkers! It's like she's had a new lease of life, she runs around, leaps over things, chases squirrels, gives me a heart-attack every time she does things!
I honestly never thought I'd see her back to normal but she is.
Wishing you all the best whatever you choose.
All in the cost was about 3K. I'd have paid it no matter what but luckily we were insured.
bexVN said:
Wtf! I have never ever known cruciate surgery to cost anywhere near that much, even on the largest dogs or with complications!!
Re: hydro on a water phobic dog, they will take their time and usually use a treadmill rather than swim. A good place will never force a dog to do more than they are comfortable with (my Jimmy whippet was not a water dog at all but accepted the treadmill well with a bit of patience initially)
It was a Akita and had the op at a place in Newmarket so I been told.Re: hydro on a water phobic dog, they will take their time and usually use a treadmill rather than swim. A good place will never force a dog to do more than they are comfortable with (my Jimmy whippet was not a water dog at all but accepted the treadmill well with a bit of patience initially)
rosie11 said:
Husbands ex spent over £20,000 having this op on her dog.
No insurance either :0
Blimey. Were there complications? Our vet has estimated £2000-2500. We're not insured either - our thinking was that if either of the dogs were to need anything expensive, with insurance we'd have to faff around getting their approval and all that. Whereas if we just put the money into a bank account, we'll just pay up for anything they need rather than run the risk of paying premiums for years and then finding the insurers wriggle out of footing the bill. No insurance either :0
bexVN said:
Wtf! I have never ever known cruciate surgery to cost anywhere near that much, even on the largest dogs or with complications!!
Re: hydro on a water phobic dog, they will take their time and usually use a treadmill rather than swim. A good place will never force a dog to do more than they are comfortable with (my Jimmy whippet was not a water dog at all but accepted the treadmill well with a bit of patience initially)
Thanks Bex, my heart rate has begun to return to normal on reading your post. Re: hydro on a water phobic dog, they will take their time and usually use a treadmill rather than swim. A good place will never force a dog to do more than they are comfortable with (my Jimmy whippet was not a water dog at all but accepted the treadmill well with a bit of patience initially)
Poppy isn't really afraid of the water, she just doesn't like swimming. She's happy to go into the river for a splash in summer, but she's not keen on being out of her depth so the treadmill sounds like a good idea. I'm thinking hydrotherapy will probably be easier on her joints than physiotherapy. I'll give the hydrotherapy centre a call when we know what's happening with the surgery.
Catz said:
Been there, done that!
With total full recovery I'm glad to say!
Our retriever tore her cruciate ligament and undertook TPLO surgery (google that) at East Neuk Vets in Fife (apparently specialists in this type of surgery). I was very, very worried! The surgery took place in October 2013 and although recuperation was a 3 month stretch it was definitely worth it. Sula, our flatcoat retriever, was a little cautious for almost a year and although off lead she still seemed to be more careful than before. However the past few months she's gone bonkers! It's like she's had a new lease of life, she runs around, leaps over things, chases squirrels, gives me a heart-attack every time she does things!
I honestly never thought I'd see her back to normal but she is.
Wishing you all the best whatever you choose.
All in the cost was about 3K. I'd have paid it no matter what but luckily we were insured.
Thanks Cat, it's brilliant to hear of someone who's had a positive outcome. Poppy's problem is that she's never careful - typical lurcher, steam in first and ask questions later. Sula is probably a bit bigger than Poppy, so it's really good to hear of a successful outcome in a big dog - so glad she's enjoying her life now! smileWith total full recovery I'm glad to say!
Our retriever tore her cruciate ligament and undertook TPLO surgery (google that) at East Neuk Vets in Fife (apparently specialists in this type of surgery). I was very, very worried! The surgery took place in October 2013 and although recuperation was a 3 month stretch it was definitely worth it. Sula, our flatcoat retriever, was a little cautious for almost a year and although off lead she still seemed to be more careful than before. However the past few months she's gone bonkers! It's like she's had a new lease of life, she runs around, leaps over things, chases squirrels, gives me a heart-attack every time she does things!
I honestly never thought I'd see her back to normal but she is.
Wishing you all the best whatever you choose.
All in the cost was about 3K. I'd have paid it no matter what but luckily we were insured.
I've checked out the options, and I see that MMP is a "miniaturised" version of TPLO, suitable for use in smaller dogs. Poppy most certainly isn't a smaller dog (lugging 30kg of lurcher up and down the stairs is proving to be a challenge...), so I'm guessing the vet might've meant TPLO? I'll ask her at our Friday appointment. Or I might give her a call this morning, so that I have time to book a different vet if TPLO isn't available.
Either way, if surgery is needed then she'll have the best. The suture method isn't going to be an option, I don't think, because she's a big girl and the bigger the dog, the bigger the chance of rupture and suchlike. So TPLO it'll have to be - if MMP proves to be the "smaller dog" option.
Poppy is getting back to normal now in all ways except for her leg. This morning I got the full 21-gun salute when I woke up, she pottered out of her bed and stood at the top of the stairs, waving her paw at me to ask me to take her downstairs, scoffed her breakfast (what there was of it - reduced rations while she's immobile!) and then had a little wander round before heading back to her bed. She's still in pain, but she seems to be getting used to it.
Right, progress!
I spoke to our vet this morning, she's insistent that MMP and lateral suture are the only options she can offer and that MMP "will be okay", but she's happy to call round for us if we want TPLO instead.
So I did some calling around myself, and I've just spoken to a vet in Camberley who has lots of experience of both TPLO and TTA. He's recommending TTA for a big girl like Poppy, with a muscly body and spindly greyhoundy legs. And he certainly knows his stuff, so I've booked her in provisionally for Monday. He could've done her tomorrow, but since we have an appointment booked with her own vet for Friday to verify whether she will actually need surgery, I thought it was best to stick to that. After all, she'll need to look after both dogs and our guinea pig for some years to come, so I don't want to upset her by going over her head.
I spoke to our vet this morning, she's insistent that MMP and lateral suture are the only options she can offer and that MMP "will be okay", but she's happy to call round for us if we want TPLO instead.
So I did some calling around myself, and I've just spoken to a vet in Camberley who has lots of experience of both TPLO and TTA. He's recommending TTA for a big girl like Poppy, with a muscly body and spindly greyhoundy legs. And he certainly knows his stuff, so I've booked her in provisionally for Monday. He could've done her tomorrow, but since we have an appointment booked with her own vet for Friday to verify whether she will actually need surgery, I thought it was best to stick to that. After all, she'll need to look after both dogs and our guinea pig for some years to come, so I don't want to upset her by going over her head.
Your usual vet will need to do a referral letter and you need to let them know you are going elsewhere (ethics etc) the 2nd vet has prob told you this already though as they shouldn't be agreeing to take on her case without having some contact with your normal vets.
Good to know you have found someone you feel comfortable with tbh vets have their own preferences and you will get two vets same experience/skill etc prefer different methods for different reasons (bit like consultant/surgeons!) also good to check with your own vet if they know his reputation etc (we have referral places we prefer to use over others for various reasons)
Fingers crossed in a few weeks things will get back to normal for you all!
Good to know you have found someone you feel comfortable with tbh vets have their own preferences and you will get two vets same experience/skill etc prefer different methods for different reasons (bit like consultant/surgeons!) also good to check with your own vet if they know his reputation etc (we have referral places we prefer to use over others for various reasons)
Fingers crossed in a few weeks things will get back to normal for you all
!bexVN said:
Your usual vet will need to do a referral letter and you need to let them know you are going elsewhere (ethics etc) the 2nd vet has prob told you this already though as they shouldn't be agreeing to take on her case without having some contact with your normal vets.
Thanks Bex, I didn't think of that. Good advice. No, the new vet didn't mention it, and I haven't spoken to our usual vet since I spoke to him. I'm sure she won't mind doing a referral letter - though I don't know whether she'll know him, he's a bit of a distance away. I might give her a call later on - or maybe I'll just mention it on Friday when we're there. Which do you think would be best? You know vet surgeons better than I do, do you think our vet might be a bit miffed if I just drop the info on her on Friday, or should I call her beforehand do you think?bexVN said:
Good to know you have found someone you feel comfortable with tbh vets have their own preferences and you will get two vets same experience/skill etc prefer different methods for different reasons (bit like consultant/surgeons!) also good to check with your own vet if they know his reputation etc (we have referral places we prefer to use over others for various reasons)
Fingers crossed in a few weeks things will get back to normal for you all!
I can see why our own vet prefers MMP/lateral suture - by her own admission the practice has nobody trained in TPLO or TTA. That's fair enough, we can't all be good at everything! But a lot of what I've been reading over the last few days backs up the claim that these procedures are less effective in larger dogs, and we've also spoken to a professor in Germany who also recommended TTA for precisely the same reasons as the new vet I spoke to this morning. We'll do more research before we go ahead with surgery in any case, but at least the Monday slot is booked now so we can get on with it and get the surgery done - TPLO or TTA, the vet can do either. And the sooner she's in less pain, the better. Fingers crossed in a few weeks things will get back to normal for you all
!I will ask Sally (our vet) if she knows him, though. She might well know something that's not public knowledge.
Thanks Bex! All your info is much appreciated.
You're about 40 miles from Noel Fitzpatrick (TV's Supervet). If in doubt, go see him!
When our dog was a pup he damaged a cruciate ligament. Fortunately, while surgery looked imminent, the do nothing option was also available to us. We went down the 'do nothing' option, so he was restricted to on-lead walks starting at 10 minutes a day and did a hydrotherapy session each week. He HATES water, but by the end of his first session, he was much happier. A few weeks in and you had to stop him chucking himself in. I dare say some dogs will probably continue to hate water, but our dog seemed to get used to it and start enjoying it.
After about 10 weeks he could be let off the lead and hasn't had a problem since. The vets seemed keen to do the surgery on him 'and then it's done', but Fitzpatrick Referrals checked the xrays and put the 'do nothing' option back on the table. Our dogs obviously wasn't as bad as yours, but it's worth getting a second opinion.
When our dog was a pup he damaged a cruciate ligament. Fortunately, while surgery looked imminent, the do nothing option was also available to us. We went down the 'do nothing' option, so he was restricted to on-lead walks starting at 10 minutes a day and did a hydrotherapy session each week. He HATES water, but by the end of his first session, he was much happier. A few weeks in and you had to stop him chucking himself in. I dare say some dogs will probably continue to hate water, but our dog seemed to get used to it and start enjoying it.
After about 10 weeks he could be let off the lead and hasn't had a problem since. The vets seemed keen to do the surgery on him 'and then it's done', but Fitzpatrick Referrals checked the xrays and put the 'do nothing' option back on the table. Our dogs obviously wasn't as bad as yours, but it's worth getting a second opinion.
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