Springer spaniel - tail docking

[bexVN]

R8VXF said:

bexVN said:

In the USA it does (as is de clawing cats and debarking dogs. I am very glad to say they are all illegal in this country

Oh FFS! I know it is illegal, it still happens and it makes me sad.

Sorry my mind reading skills aren't working this morning, I should have realised you knew it was illegal. Was no need for the swearing either thank you.

Plenty of things happen that shouldn't this thread was discussing what is legal.

The only 'cropped' ears I have seen are from the greyhounds that the sick owners try and remove the identity of. I assume this is what you were referring to.

[CorbynForTheBin]

Thanks to the first few posters who cleared this up for me!

[Autopilot]

We have two Dobermanns, both used for sport. One is UK born and bred and therefore has ears and a tail. The other we got from Serbia (Altobello Kennel) so is cropped and docked.

To be honest, I personally think the cropped and docked one looks 'better' as she's true to the breed as it was intended to look. Would I actually choose to crop and dock? Nope! I don't really see the point. There is absolutely no detrimental affect of having ears and a tail for Schutzhund.

The FCI recently stopped cropped and dogs dogs taking part in compeition, but I'm certain that it was overruled this week and cropped and docked can compete again so would imagine the 'proper' European kennels will resume with 'mutilation' as there had been a reprive since the rules were changed.

[bazza white]

We had a springer with a tail and got him off a farm. No issues before or after, bit as above you will be picking bits out of it regularly.

Only dog Ive come across I would get docked was a friends great Dane. It was like a whip across the legs. Sat on the sofa and your face would get the whip treatment. Was a farm dog to so the tail always had scabby bits

[silverthorn2151]

Our springer has a tail. Wags so fast it's like a propeller when she's running through the forest. Doesn't get any muddier than the rest of her though. Picks up the odd twig or two from time to time.

I think she would be missing something without it, but our kitchen would be slightly cleaner. Small price for such a lovely creature.

[Prof Prolapse]

Obviously a very different breed, but my rottie/alsation cross has a tail.

I was amazed the pressure from Rottie owners about having him docked as a puppy. I am aware of the law, and would mention it but the huge number of them simply got it done because of aesthetics. Which I disagree with.

Vets claim to follow guidelines but clearly some can't be bothered with the hassle of refusal however. How can someone have a working dog if they're chronically unemployed? Is the dog the bread winner?

[bexVN]

The last time I saw tails being docked was probably almost 20yrs ago in my first practice

I have worked in 3 others since then. What I have seen in those yrs are tails docked, of utility breeds, by what is referred to as a lay person (ie anyone who isn't qualified to), not by any vet.

I have a feeling if word got around that a vet was docking utility breeds they would get reported and in some trouble as a result. (certainly should be!)

They are done when pups are 2-3 days old, and definitely not once in their new homes unless injured.

Edited by bexVN on Monday 1st February 09:44

[chrisga]

We have two working type springers (non docked) and a working type cocker (docked). One of the springers and the cocker work beating and picking up on local shoots. We bought the first springer purely as a pet dog and got involved with working her later on when invited to try hence why no dock. Our springer will often come back from a beat with the tip of her tail bleeding and it can take ages to heal as she is always battering it into other stuff even around the house. As another poster eluded to I'm sure this is why tails are docked, not for getting in and out of vehicles. If the wound became infected, worse case, it might mean she would need to have her tail amputated which would potentially be far more traumatic than having it docked when she was tiny. Don't get me wrong I don't agree with docking, their tails are amazing, but I can understand why some people have it done. Ours only work once a week but if they were doing it more regularly it would potentially never heal. The cocker has yet to cut the end of his tail and he has a fairly short dock.

Are you looking at show or working type of springer? Quite different in looks and temparement. I wouldnt expect show types to be docked but the breed standard from KC says they can be, working types it depends on the breeder I guess. I wouldn't let it put me off the right dog though. More important to ask the breeder if the parents are health tested IMO.

Any excuse to post pics....
Our pet springer with full tail:

IMG_2777 by chrisg, on Flickr

Our working springer with full tail:
IMG_4411 by chrisga, on Flickr

Our working cocker with docked tail:

IMG_3077 by chrisga, on Flickr

Edited by chrisga on Monday 1st February 10:04

[LordHaveMurci]

chrisga said:

Our working cocker with docked tail:

IMG_3077 by chrisga, on Flickr

Your cocker's dock is even longer than ours, short enough to keep it out of trouble though. IF we get another working cocker when our 12yr old finally leaves us, I'd definitely look for a docked one as we've had no problems at all with this one being docked.

To dock a tail purely for looks is wrong, for the well being of the dog it is a no brainer.

[oddman]

http://veterinaryrecord.bmj.com/content/early/2014...

Evidence from Scotland where docking was made illegal

The vets authoring this paper recommend reconsideration of the ban since injuries to spaniels rose by 2.3 times following docking ban. This result is smaller than it should be because

1) not all spaniels work
2) a significant proportion of the at risk population of working spaniels included in the post 2009 group will be pre 2007 docked dogs

If they were able to use a case control design to test the effect of docking dogs which actually work then I'm sure the results in favour of docking would be unequivocal.

[skeggysteve]

OP,

We have a Springer, they are lovely dogs, completely barking mad but lovely!

As for the docking - well if our hadn't had a docked tail I doubt she'd be able to stand up most of the time - her tail wags so much and so violently!

She loves to root around in the undergrowth we out walking so a long tail would cause her problems.

Question for Becks: lambs have their tails docked with a rubber band why don't dogs have it done the same way?

[bexVN]

I've seen the infected messes of pups that have had a rubber band docking

I have never worked with farm animals so never even knew they still did this to lambs no idea why the difference. Don't agree with the method in the lambs tbh, just tying a band tight around a little finger for half a hour is an unpleasant sensation.

[anonymous-user]

I have never heard such utter tosh in my life! We had a Springer cross Collie when I was younger called Lola. Yes she was mad on a walk tearing through gorse bushes etc much the same as our lurcher cross and collie lab cross.

All had full tails, had to debug their tails, but they were hardly in danger of losing them.

Working dogs my ass! Just an excuse so they look they way certain people want them to look IMO

[skeggysteve]

Becks,

Sorry I should have said the lamb thing I was talking about I only know from many years ago. But I never heard any lambs squealing in pain, their long tails just dropped off.

TBH the farmer I worked with was a sheep farmer and didn't want anything to affect his flock - and he didn't treat them like just money, he really did care for them

To make it plain I would never willing inflict any pain on any animal.

[bexVN]

skeggysteve said:

Becks,

Sorry I should have said the lamb thing I was talking about I only know from many years ago. But I never heard any lambs squealing in pain, their long tails just dropped off.

TBH the farmer I worked with was a sheep farmer and didn't want anything to affect his flock - and he didn't treat them like just money, he really did care for them

To make it plain I would never willing inflict any pain on any animal.

I suppose it is a more gradual process so not so much an acute pain that would more likely cause squealing more a chronic discomfort that they could do little about.

With sheep they are at risk of flies etc so I do see why it may be needed (though the method is still crass). Much more likely than a dog injuring it's tail in a bush etc.

[otolith]

The cynic in me says that a puppy is worth several hundred pounds and a newborn lamb isn't. And vets cost money.

[chrisga]

digimeistter said:

I have never heard such utter tosh in my life! We had a Springer cross Collie when I was younger called Lola. Yes she was mad on a walk tearing through gorse bushes etc much the same as our lurcher cross and collie lab cross.

All had full tails, had to debug their tails, but they were hardly in danger of losing them.

Working dogs my ass! Just an excuse so they look they way certain people want them to look IMO

Believe me there is a massive difference between a dog tearing through gorse bushes on a walk and a spaniel in their zone flushing birds when working for a whole day on a shoot.
It's really lovely when they come back looking like this, not:



Believe me I would rather a spaniel had a full tail, our two springers tails are fantastically bonkers but if out working properly (not just in name) and doing the job they were designed for I can understand why docking is sensible.

Edited by chrisga on Wednesday 3rd February 07:48

[Prof Prolapse]

oddman said:

http://veterinaryrecord.bmj.com/content/early/2014...

Evidence from Scotland where docking was made illegal

The vets authoring this paper recommend reconsideration of the ban since injuries to spaniels rose by 2.3 times following docking ban. This result is smaller than it should be because

1) not all spaniels work
2) a significant proportion of the at risk population of working spaniels included in the post 2009 group will be pre 2007 docked dogs

If they were able to use a case control design to test the effect of docking dogs which actually work then I'm sure the results in favour of docking would be unequivocal.

I'm open to the concept of widening the acceptance of tail docking, in fact with good enough evidence I'll believe anything, but your link is just a summary, without access to the full content you cannot confirm the authors conclusions. My personal experience is that papers published in this field can be very inconsistent with regards to quality, especially with regards sample size. So take care with it.

If you have it I'd very much like to read it.

[LordHaveMurci]

digimeistter said:

I have never heard such utter tosh in my life! We had a Springer cross Collie when I was younger called Lola. Yes she was mad on a walk tearing through gorse bushes etc much the same as our lurcher cross and collie lab cross.

All had full tails, had to debug their tails, but they were hardly in danger of losing them.

Working dogs my ass! Just an excuse so they look they way certain people want them to look IMO

Utter tosh.

My Mother has had several Sringer/Collie crosses over the last 35yrs, not one of them has been, or could be, a working dog.
My working cocker on the other hand would have looked much like the pic posted above had he not been docked.
People walking their pet around the park are not the same as working a dog bred for the job., hence they have different needs.
I personally don't know anybody who chooses a working dog based on looks, do you?

[oddman]

Prof Prolapse said:

If you have it I'd very much like to read it.

Sorry don't have an Athens log in but here's another more up to date abstract by the same authors

http://veterinaryrecord.bmj.com/content/early/2014...

It's a survey of people who actually work their (undocked) dogs and the injury rates are pretty high. Appreciate abstract doesn't allow one to fully criticise the evidence but this is much higher level evidence than 'Lola never got hurt in gorse so working owners are talking tosh'

Working a dog is a completely different experience for the owner and dog and pet spaniel owners are not qualified to comment on something they haven't participated in. My spaniel is a fit high energy dog in comparison with a pet but when he is hunting down a scent he goes up several gears. His tail wags at about 10Hz and he does not appear to have any sense of safety or pain. He has a nice medium docking like the little liver dog above no tail injuries but by the time he finishes his working life i reckon he'll be about 90% scar tissue and still loving it.