Springer spaniel - tail docking
Discussion
Never really understood the argument for docking HPRs (if it is such a necessity, why have labs and retrievers never been docked?) In sighthounds it considerably reduces their speed and steering ability if they suffer tail injuries or amputation so I guess they find them useful. If you lopped off toes on the basis hare-footed hounds might break them, then vets would never have time to do anything else. We've had two dogs break their tails ( a lurcher and a spinone) and both were reset and healed fine, with no need for amputation. We had a fine JRT ratter here on the farm with a full tail, never had an injury to it.
Don't get me started on the ghastly foreign savagery of docking driving horses
Don't get me started on the ghastly foreign savagery of docking driving horses
LordHaveMurci said:
Utter tosh.
My Mother has had several Sringer/Collie crosses over the last 35yrs, not one of them has been, or could be, a working dog.
My working cocker on the other hand would have looked much like the pic posted above had he not been docked.
People walking their pet around the park are not the same as working a dog bred for the job., hence they have different needs.
I personally don't know anybody who chooses a working dog based on looks, do you?
Hilarious! My Mother has had several Sringer/Collie crosses over the last 35yrs, not one of them has been, or could be, a working dog.
My working cocker on the other hand would have looked much like the pic posted above had he not been docked.
People walking their pet around the park are not the same as working a dog bred for the job., hence they have different needs.
I personally don't know anybody who chooses a working dog based on looks, do you?
digimeistter said:
LordHaveMurci said:
Utter tosh.
My Mother has had several Sringer/Collie crosses over the last 35yrs, not one of them has been, or could be, a working dog.
My working cocker on the other hand would have looked much like the pic posted above had he not been docked.
People walking their pet around the park are not the same as working a dog bred for the job., hence they have different needs.
I personally don't know anybody who chooses a working dog based on looks, do you?
Hilarious! My Mother has had several Sringer/Collie crosses over the last 35yrs, not one of them has been, or could be, a working dog.
My working cocker on the other hand would have looked much like the pic posted above had he not been docked.
People walking their pet around the park are not the same as working a dog bred for the job., hence they have different needs.
I personally don't know anybody who chooses a working dog based on looks, do you?
digimeistter said:
Actually I have, my ex wife's family were all in the hunting set and her Uncle Ben used runs shoots on his farm in Devon. Spent many a time out with the dogs beating and shooting.
Just because I don't agree with docking I come across as a dick? - oookaay then
Seeems odd you didn't mention this rather relevant point in your previous post, mentioning Lola instead?Just because I don't agree with docking I come across as a dick? - oookaay then
And would you care to go into detail on your response to my reply rather than the rather childish attempt you made?
digimeistter said:
Actually I have, my ex wife's family were all in the hunting set and her Uncle Ben runs shoots on his farm in Devon. Spent many a time out with the dogs beating and shooting.
Just because I don't agree with docking I come across as a dick? - oookaay then
No, its not because you don't agree with docking that you come across as a dick. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.Just because I don't agree with docking I come across as a dick? - oookaay then
oddman said:
Prof Prolapse said:
If you have it I'd very much like to read it.
Sorry don't have an Athens log in but here's another more up to date abstract by the same authorshttp://veterinaryrecord.bmj.com/content/early/2014...
It's a survey of people who actually work their (undocked) dogs and the injury rates are pretty high. Appreciate abstract doesn't allow one to fully criticise the evidence but this is much higher level evidence than 'Lola never got hurt in gorse so working owners are talking tosh'
Working a dog is a completely different experience for the owner and dog and pet spaniel owners are not qualified to comment on something they haven't participated in. My spaniel is a fit high energy dog in comparison with a pet but when he is hunting down a scent he goes up several gears. His tail wags at about 10Hz and he does not appear to have any sense of safety or pain. He has a nice medium docking like the little liver dog above no tail injuries but by the time he finishes his working life i reckon he'll be about 90% scar tissue and still loving it.
For pets I struggle to see the need but I am open to working dogs. I often think if my dog was to do security work for example his tail would put him at great risk of injury I should think.
I had his dewclaws removed when he was a puppy, it would be a very hypocritical to at least not keep an open mind.
LordHaveMurci said:
Seeems odd you didn't mention this rather relevant point in your previous post, mentioning Lola instead?
And would you care to go into detail on your response to my reply rather than the rather childish attempt you made?
The dogs on the hunt weren't mine.And would you care to go into detail on your response to my reply rather than the rather childish attempt you made?
I apologise if I have upset anyone's sensibilities and for my rather petulant reply LordHaveMurci.
I have yet to see any evidence to support the fact that docking is necessary for working dogs, however I concede that they are not pets or treated as such.
Ben's dogs were kept outside in kennel's. I became rather disaffected with the whole thing when one of the dogs broke two of it's legs on a shoot, rather than take it to the vet he just went outside and shot it!
digimeistter said:
The dogs on the hunt weren't mine.
I apologise if I have upset anyone's sensibilities and for my rather petulant reply LordHaveMurci.
I have yet to see any evidence to support the fact that docking is necessary for working dogs, however I concede that they are not pets or treated as such.
Ben's dogs were kept outside in kennel's. I became rather disaffected with the whole thing when one of the dogs broke two of it's legs on a shoot, rather than take it to the vet he just went outside and shot it!
That makes Ben a c***, lot's of people who work dogs kennel them, there are good reasons for it. Most of them love their dogs, clearly Ben didn't unless there is more that we don't know.I apologise if I have upset anyone's sensibilities and for my rather petulant reply LordHaveMurci.
I have yet to see any evidence to support the fact that docking is necessary for working dogs, however I concede that they are not pets or treated as such.
Ben's dogs were kept outside in kennel's. I became rather disaffected with the whole thing when one of the dogs broke two of it's legs on a shoot, rather than take it to the vet he just went outside and shot it!
A working dog doesn't know when to stop, mine fell about 30ft when out working, witnessed by two of the other lads not myself. He landed, shook himself off & carried on! Thankfully he was fine but it shows these dogs will carry on regardless & their tails are the most prone to injury as they work very dense cover (bramble etc) & never stop wagging them!
If you've only had experience of pet dogs in normal environments then you're probably never going to understand why working dogs tails are best docked.
Dand E Lion said:
MYOB said:
Dand E Lion said:
why have labs and retrievers never been docked?
The different breeds from the gun dog family do different jobs. Springer spaniels "flush" which essentially is getting into the the undergrowth and flushing out the birds, which is not what labs or retriever do. MYOB said:
Dand E Lion said:
why have labs and retrievers never been docked?
The different breeds from the gun dog family do different jobs. Springer spaniels "flush" which essentially is getting into the the undergrowth and flushing out the birds, which is not what labs or retriever do. Dand E Lion said:
So everyone has two dogs then? And only spaniels damage their tails? We have a small private shoot on the farm managed by a neighbour and the guns definitely don't have two dogs apiece.
No, I suppose I was not 100% factual in my earlier post. Some retrievers can flush, but as LordHaveMerci alluded to, the retrievers cannot get into the tight spots like spaniels. Plus the fur on the retrievers tails are short, and not long like a spaniel which is where the brambles can interfere with Spaniels' tails.Dand E Lion said:
So everyone has two dogs then? And only spaniels damage their tails? We have a small private shoot on the farm managed by a neighbour and the guns definitely don't have two dogs apiece.
But the guns don't do the beating work, unless a walked up day which still isn't as intense for the dogs. They mostly use their dogs for just picking up. Spaniels tails go like the clappers when on a scent and I've seen the mess a dog has come back with split tail.
Dogs then out for weeks to months and no use for almost a full season.
Both my HPRs are undocked (I'm in Scotland) and are used for beating, hunting and retrieving but they can't, as said before get into some of the places spaniels throw themselves into.
My vet did say he would have removed one of my dogs dew claws if he had seen him earlier as a pup as they flop about and catch in stuff while working and get damaged quite a bit.
V41LEY said:
Oh dear - another thread that sounded interesting as I have a working cocker with a docked tail (and another on the way) but no - it has succumbed to the new PH way of intolerance, name calling, profanity and just wrong information. Time to move on .....
Generally not the usual way of this forum but understandably for issues involving mutilation of an animal (for whatever purpose) passions are going to ride a bit high. Our singer has a docked tail, but we did no chose her for that. We got her as a "return to breeder",but we are not certain if she was ever worked. All we know is that she would be a terrible working dog as she is petrified of dead birds and is happy to swim alongside the ducks. Maybe that is why she was returned. We understand that she was the runt of the litter and she is small for a springer. Talking to people that work them, they say that she is the perfect size as she can "get in there".
If we were to get another springer would it have a docked tail? I don't know, as we wouldn't chose one based on the tail length and we wouldn't be getting "brand new".
If we were to get another springer would it have a docked tail? I don't know, as we wouldn't chose one based on the tail length and we wouldn't be getting "brand new".
Previously I had two rescue Springers, strangely the one who had worked had a full tail, the other who had obviously never worked had been docked and dew-clawed.
I now have four working cockers, or rather mostly unemployed cockers, two are docked, two aren't. The oldest boy is a failed working dog and has a half-dock, the younger boy has a short-dock I've had him since a small pup, he came from working stock but his first owner was unable to keep him, so I took him on; he has a huge inbuilt instinct and does like flushing birds out, so is always in the undergrowth. The last two are sisters who I have had from pups, they are the result of my older boy having an unplanned romantic liaison with friends' working cocker, they will never be worked and still have tails.
I can see, from the state they get in sometimes, why people may choose to have working dogs docked, but other than fashion see no reason for domestic pets to be done; my two had already been done and are now domestic pets, I can't put their tails back though.
I now have four working cockers, or rather mostly unemployed cockers, two are docked, two aren't. The oldest boy is a failed working dog and has a half-dock, the younger boy has a short-dock I've had him since a small pup, he came from working stock but his first owner was unable to keep him, so I took him on; he has a huge inbuilt instinct and does like flushing birds out, so is always in the undergrowth. The last two are sisters who I have had from pups, they are the result of my older boy having an unplanned romantic liaison with friends' working cocker, they will never be worked and still have tails.
I can see, from the state they get in sometimes, why people may choose to have working dogs docked, but other than fashion see no reason for domestic pets to be done; my two had already been done and are now domestic pets, I can't put their tails back though.
I think what people don't appreciate is that docking has to take place in the first few days of life. If the breeder hasn't got a taker for every pup they'll often have them all docked to ensure they aren't less desirable as working dogs. A better to have done rather than not to approach. A damaged and infected tail Isn't pretty and thus I'm pro docking of working breeds.
Couldn’t find any other threads on docking so have dug this up.
Had to have our WCS docked last week. She’s beaten the crap out of it for months and much as we tried our best to treat it and then protect it, it eventually became infected and the vet recommended it.
Someone already got shouty at my mother-in-law when she took her for a walk the other day. Accused her of doing it as it’s fashionable. Is that even a thing?!?
First couple of days she was incredibly needy but it’s understandable. Comparable to losing a limb?
She’s an unemployed WCS who just gets lots of walks and stimulation. Oh, and a s
tload of belly rubs.
Currently fighting its cone of shame, stitches coming out next week hopefully.
Had to have our WCS docked last week. She’s beaten the crap out of it for months and much as we tried our best to treat it and then protect it, it eventually became infected and the vet recommended it.
Someone already got shouty at my mother-in-law when she took her for a walk the other day. Accused her of doing it as it’s fashionable. Is that even a thing?!?
First couple of days she was incredibly needy but it’s understandable. Comparable to losing a limb?
She’s an unemployed WCS who just gets lots of walks and stimulation. Oh, and a s
tload of belly rubs. Currently fighting its cone of shame, stitches coming out next week hopefully.
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