Springer spaniel - tail docking

[chrisga]

HRL said:

Couldn’t find any other threads on docking so have dug this up.

Had to have our WCS docked last week. She’s beaten the crap out of it for months and much as we tried our best to treat it and then protect it, it eventually became infected and the vet recommended it.

Someone already got shouty at my mother-in-law when she took her for a walk the other day. Accused her of doing it as it’s fashionable. Is that even a thing?!?

First couple of days she was incredibly needy but it’s understandable. Comparable to losing a limb?

She’s an unemployed WCS who just gets lots of walks and stimulation. Oh, and a stload of belly rubs.

Currently fighting its cone of shame, stitches coming out next week hopefully.

A friend had to have her undocked wcs docked later in life as it cut the end of the tail which became infected and because wcs, it kept wacking stuff with it wagging so never healed. Was a lot more traumatic for the dog doing at that stage in life. You'd have to hope people aren't doing it for fashion!

I hope yours heals quickly. If it doesn't, a top tip is bandage it inside a hair roller apparently.

Thankfully whenever our undocked springer has cut the end of her tail it has healed relatively quickly. She is worked and is in and out of hedges on a daily basis so its always a worry.

[LordHaveMurci]

Surely you're talking about amputation rather than docking once the tail is fully formed, a different case altogether.

[FerdiZ28]

Incredible the world we live in at the moment.

We happily force horses to ride on hard surfaced, scary roads with noisy vehicles and force dogs to run across fields/into rabbit holes accompanied by loud shotgun bangs and lots of shouting.

And now it is considered normal to mutilate them too?

Understandable when we had no choice (horses as transport, rabbit hunting as an essential way to obtain sustenance) but now these practices are horrific sports.

Humans really are the most vicious animal on Earth.

[Tyre Smoke]

FerdiZ28 said:

Incredible the world we live in at the moment.

We happily force horses to ride on hard surfaced, scary roads with noisy vehicles and force dogs to run across fields/into rabbit holes accompanied by loud shotgun bangs and lots of shouting.

And now it is considered normal to mutilate them too?

Understandable when we had no choice (horses as transport, rabbit hunting as an essential way to obtain sustenance) but now these practices are horrific sports.

Humans really are the most vicious animal on Earth.

So, on the basis that a spaniel is a working dog and is worked, rather than a pet (no need to dock a pet) you would rather the dog, doing what it's trained to and loves doing, rip it's tail to shreds causing it untold pain and suffering?

Unbelievable ignorance.

Whether you like it or not, dogs still work all over the countryside. They love it. Shooting is a popular sport in the countryside. Sheep dogs are by far the best way to round up sheep and cattle.

[FerdiZ28]

it is only a working dog because we determine it to be - or have bred that behaviour into it. We put it in the situation where it is at risk of hurting its tail.

The dog would be just as happy off a lead running across a field after a ball/frisbee.

There is defnitely ignorance on this thread, but not where you think.

[chrisga]

Yeah right. Have you ever tried to keep an active spaniel, even a pet one, out of a hedge on a walk? Won't happen. Thorns/brambles/other sharp objects won't distinguish whether the dog is working or not.

[FerdiZ28]

chrisga said:

Yeah right. Have you ever tried to keep an active spaniel, even a pet one, out of a hedge on a walk? Won't happen. Thorns/brambles/other sharp objects won't distinguish whether the dog is working or not.

Quite believe it. Centuries of breeding (by humans, hence my above point) have installed this into them. I'm not saying there is a solution, just the situation is objectively horrible. Docking tails is jut the icing on a very nasty cake.

[HRL]

LordHaveMurci said:

Surely you're talking about amputation rather than docking once the tail is fully formed, a different case altogether.

Yep, you’re right. I just thought that was the correct term for it.

Didn’t do it for fun clearly, but as the posts above make clear, some people seem to take offence even when done on medical grounds.

[Tyre Smoke]

FerdiZ28 said:

it is only a working dog because we determine it to be - or have bred that behaviour into it. We put it in the situation where it is at risk of hurting its tail.

The dog would be just as happy off a lead running across a field after a ball/frisbee.

There is defnitely ignorance on this thread, but not where you think.

Because a ball or a frisbee are bloody marvellous at rounding up sheep and cattle aren't they? Or perhaps you'd rather we all ate lentils?
I can see exactly where you're coming from and it is clearly a point of troll or an unwillingness to see reality.

[FerdiZ28]

Neither.

Who is suggesting docking a Collie's tail? Or subjecting it to loud bangs, pressure and injury?

Rounding up sheep serves a purpose, we need wool and using a Collie is less scary for the sheep than a quad bike. Similar to horses before cars, it was excusable because there was no alternative.

Keeping these practices going is barbaric and thankfully on the decline. Oh and lentils, no thanks.

[Never you mind]

FerdiZ28 said:

chrisga said:

Yeah right. Have you ever tried to keep an active spaniel, even a pet one, out of a hedge on a walk? Won't happen. Thorns/brambles/other sharp objects won't distinguish whether the dog is working or not.

Quite believe it. Centuries of breeding (by humans, hence my above point) have installed this into them. I'm not saying there is a solution, just the situation is objectively horrible. Docking tails is jut the icing on a very nasty cake.

But there is a solution and that's to dock the tail. I can't see the point in docking tails just to meet a breed standard (think boxers, Dobermans years ago) but for a dog that is constantly in and out of bushes and brambles, like a spaniel, then it's a must for the well being of the dog.

A breeder can't just get a puppies tail docked on a whim these days, you need to prove that it will be a working dog so you either need a shot gun license or a letter from a game keeper.

Edited by Never you mind on Friday 30th March 11:05

[bexVN]

I would argue that we see very few tail amputations in adult dogs and actually more commonly we see breeds like greyhounds/lurchers, Dalmatians (a few Dalmatians for some reason) mixed breeds etc. Not so many spaniels, their feathered tails actually protect them quite well.

We also probably amputate more cats tails but obviously we don't dock cats tails.

I sort of understand why the argument with true working dogs but over 30yrs in nursing I have never seen the numbers to justify it really.

Re the certification, you only need to show that the parent is a working dog and you 'intend' to sell the pups as working pups but that is easily got round. I know plenty of dogs that have been legitimately docked but never worked.

Edited by bexVN on Friday 30th March 12:45

[oddman]

FerdiZ28 said:

Quite believe it. Centuries of breeding (by humans, hence my above point) have installed this into them. I'm not saying there is a solution, just the situation is objectively horrible. Docking tails is jut the icing on a very nasty cake.

What absolute twaddle

Humans, over centuries, have bred out or shaped the natural behaviours of wolves. The ability to harness the companionship and hunting characteristics to produce a working breed is an astounding human achievement.

Dogs which hunt have the best lives because, of all the dog breeds, they can express their natural behaviours to their greatest extent.

My spaniel definitely knows the difference between working and training and is buzzing on a shoot day. Not letting them do this is more cruel than docking

bexVN said:

Not so many spaniels, their feathered tails actually protect them quite well.

If you're in England working dogs will be docked. Feather tailed dogs aren't as likely to be working.
This is not the case is Scotland where vets have seen significant numbers of tail injuries in working dogs

Scots come over the border to buy English pups and some Scottish breeders bring their bhes to whelp in England to allow legal docking

Edited by oddman on Friday 30th March 13:26

[inabox]

I always wonder if they could be bred to be tailless, like my Brittany

[halfpenny43]

FerdiZ28 said:

it is only a working dog because we determine it to be - or have bred that behaviour into it. We put it in the situation where it is at risk of hurting its tail.

The dog would be just as happy off a lead running across a field after a ball/frisbee.

There is defnitely ignorance on this thread, but not where you think.

Sorry - but your comment "it is only a working dog because we determine it to be - or have bred that behaviour into it" is simply incorrect.

My wife has an English Springer (undocked tail before you ask). She has had him from a puppy.
She took him to a regular puppy school for obedience classes but has never ever trained with him in any form for hunting, flushing or retrieving.
He fetches sticks and balls like a demon !

However . . . . . if walking past any body of water with water fowl and him off the lead - be it a pond, lake, canal, sea - whatever - he will be in the water chasing ducks. He has scored several - mostly Coots. No manner of shouting or whistling will get him back when he's "in the zone" until he catches a bird and brings it back to you - or you manage to grab him as he darts past. This is not trained - but something almost genetic.

This time of the year coming into Spring - my wife tends to walk him on the lead in case he gets a chick or duckling.

He's nearly 10 now - has two bionic knees, but is still as energetic as ever !

[FerdiZ28]

halfpenny43 said:

Sorry - but your comment "it is only a working dog because we determine it to be - or have bred that behaviour into it" is simply incorrect.

My wife has an English Springer (undocked tail before you ask). She has had him from a puppy.
She took him to a regular puppy school for obedience classes but has never ever trained with him in any form for hunting, flushing or retrieving.
He fetches sticks and balls like a demon !

However . . . . . if walking past any body of water with water fowl and him off the lead - be it a pond, lake, canal, sea - whatever - he will be in the water chasing ducks. He has scored several - mostly Coots. No manner of shouting or whistling will get him back when he's "in the zone" until he catches a bird and brings it back to you - or you manage to grab him as he darts past. This is not trained - but something almost genetic.

This time of the year coming into Spring - my wife tends to walk him on the lead in case he gets a chick or duckling.

He's nearly 10 now - has two bionic knees, but is still as energetic as ever !

Do you need help with the big words? Bred into them, simple. No amount of trying to convince yourselves otherwise will provide an adequate argument that is, as a species, over however long, have bred this behaviour into the animals, whether they are “buzzing” about it or not.

Just a shame.

[bexVN]

Bred into them isn't entirely accurate either. You can't breed something in that isn't already there instinctively. You can enhance it though.

You can pick two dogs that show the strongest trait of a particular behaviour to increase the chances of the next generation having that trait enhanced but it has to have been there in the first place. Training hones that instinct to the particular levels we want.

Hundreds /thousands of years ago dogs themselves learned want helped them survive, e.g. Some dogs learned that if they kept rats at bay they would get shelter and warmth and better protection, in turn humans learned that the off spring of a good ratter would so likely be good a threat job so would look after the pups as well. This act of catching a rat wasn't bred into them but it was then carried on to next generations and used by us. Obviously just one minor example.

Anyway this is digressing off the original topic. Personally I don't agree with tail docking and won't be a party to it anymore. I did help with it years ago a couple times before I knew any better.