Any fish experts in the house?

[Wombat3]

Danios will cope with lower temperatures if I recall. The platy is tropical so if there is no heater in the tank then there needs to be if its not above about 73 degrees. Keep changing the water to keep the nitrites down until they disappear.

[13m]

budgie smuggler said:

Well that process can take 6 - 8 weeks to complete. And it's usually 50%+ water changes you need each time, not 20%.
Think about it, 20% removes only 20% of the toxins (whether ammonia or nitrite), so you're leaving 80% in there. It's going to accumulate more and more each day until the bacteria grow.

So for now:

Keep doing big water changes daily (50%+) with (ideally) temperature matched, dechlorinated ('conditioned') water.

Cut right down on feeding, just a very small amount per day. (Those fish can live several weeks with none at all in fact.)

Don't replace the dead fish for a couple of weeks.

Good luck

edit: bugger, didn't see this was already covered above. +1 on the Tetra SafeStart advice, it's a good product.

Edited by budgie smuggler on Tuesday 16th February 11:30

Pretty much what we are doing, aside from we're using tap water.

[Wombat3]

13m said:

Pretty much what we are doing, aside from we're using tap water.

See above re chlorine in tap water (and temperature of it). As long as you deal with those then it should sort itself out.

As above, feed very sparingly. Rotting food will be the prime cause of the ammonia/nitrite build up.

[budgie smuggler]

13m said:

Pretty much what we are doing, aside from we're using tap water.

Good man, hopefully it'll be sorted soon enough.

BTW Tap is fine, but you need to add conditioner or the chlorine/chloramine will be nuking the bacteria every time. Prime or StressCoat+ are good ones, you can get them on ebay. £10 worth of either will last you years in that tank.

Edited by budgie smuggler on Tuesday 16th February 13:08

[paintman]

I use Aquasafe in the new water. Never had any issues.

As yours is an internal filter I'd also suggest one of these for water changes, you'll be amazed how much dirt builds up in the bottom media if you're using gravel.
http://www.petsathome.com/shop/en/pets/gravel-clea...
(It does work - I've had their big one for several years. I've ditched the hand pumpy thing in the middle & just suck to start the syphon)
I've found sand easier to keep clean, switched when the last tank sprang a leak. Plants happier too.


(Top tip. If you have a large tank don't ignore your cat when it tries to attract your attention by meowing loudly next to the tank It wasn't a big leak but it managed to let out around 3 to 4 gallons overnight!)

Edited by paintman on Tuesday 16th February 19:26

[SeeFive]

I recently set up a couple of new small (46ltr community / Amano shrimp and 15ltr fry / rcs) tanks with small hang on style filters in my apartment in a new area. A bit different to the massive tanks and huge high t/o canister / low t/o UV filters I had previously for fresh and marine trops, so I was worried about keeping such a small volume of water up to quality with my targeted borderline high stock levels.

I used Tetra Safe Start and a lot of plants on a few fish-in cycle. Absolutely brilliant, cycled completely very quickly (8-10 days) with no apparent stress to the fish but had an issue getting the nitrates down even with very large water changes. Could not get it below 40ppm no matter what i did, so could not complete my gradual stocking of diddy community fish and shrimps.

So seemingly out of ideas, for the hell of it I tested my tap water. Sure enough, nitrates at 40ppm straight out of the tap! I now use remineralised RO only for water changes and all seems to be ok (waits for all life to float upside down after such a rash statement).

You don't have to install an RO plant in house for small tanks, as remineralised RO is £1.50 for 10 litres from my local aquatics store and obviously has a 0ppm reading, which of course dilutes in-tank nitrates a lot better than some tap water sources containing higher nitrates. I do 20 litres a week across both tanks warmed in the plastic transportation container in a sink of hot water before changing it.

At your stage of the cycle, feed lightly, get some fast growing plants in and keep up the water changes, big ones as advised maybe with remineralised RO if you have nitrates present in your tap water and you will soon have it all in check. If you get a new cycle kick off for any reason, my advice given my recent experience with the product would be to lob in a suitably sized bottle of Tetra Safe Start to get it through quickly. Just don't do any water changes or bother testing water (the readings are weird and very misleading) for at least a week when using safe start.

Just a thought. Given that you have been worried about the health of your fish, have you used any medication in your tank? Many medications kill off the bacteria you need for the cycle, effectively meaning that you start the cycle all over again.

Good luck.

ETA: sorry, in case you don't know my shorthand, RO water is "Reverse Osmosis" processed water - essentially water with all the bad (and good) stuff for fishkeeping water stripped out. Remineralisation puts back the good stuff. If you don't remineralise RO before use, you will probably crash your PH pretty quickly and kill the fish that way instead of the pollutant way... Did you ever want to become a bloody scientist? Fishkeeping is a good way to start

Edited by SeeFive on Wednesday 17th February 02:23

[13m]

SeeFive said:

I recently set up a couple of new small (46ltr community / Amano shrimp and 15ltr fry / rcs) tanks with small hang on style filters in my apartment in a new area. A bit different to the massive tanks and huge high t/o canister / low t/o UV filters I had previously for fresh and marine trops, so I was worried about keeping such a small volume of water up to quality with my targeted borderline high stock levels.

I used Tetra Safe Start and a lot of plants on a few fish-in cycle. Absolutely brilliant, cycled completely very quickly (8-10 days) with no apparent stress to the fish but had an issue getting the nitrates down even with very large water changes. Could not get it below 40ppm no matter what i did, so could not complete my gradual stocking of diddy community fish and shrimps.

So seemingly out of ideas, for the hell of it I tested my tap water. Sure enough, nitrates at 40ppm straight out of the tap! I now use remineralised RO only for water changes and all seems to be ok (waits for all life to float upside down after such a rash statement).

You don't have to install an RO plant in house for small tanks, as remineralised RO is £1.50 for 10 litres from my local aquatics store and obviously has a 0ppm reading, which of course dilutes in-tank nitrates a lot better than some tap water sources containing higher nitrates. I do 20 litres a week across both tanks warmed in the plastic transportation container in a sink of hot water before changing it.

At your stage of the cycle, feed lightly, get some fast growing plants in and keep up the water changes, big ones as advised maybe with remineralised RO if you have nitrates present in your tap water and you will soon have it all in check. If you get a new cycle kick off for any reason, my advice given my recent experience with the product would be to lob in a suitably sized bottle of Tetra Safe Start to get it through quickly. Just don't do any water changes or bother testing water (the readings are weird and very misleading) for at least a week when using safe start.

Just a thought. Given that you have been worried about the health of your fish, have you used any medication in your tank? Many medications kill off the bacteria you need for the cycle, effectively meaning that you start the cycle all over again.

Good luck.

ETA: sorry, in case you don't know my shorthand, RO water is "Reverse Osmosis" processed water - essentially water with all the bad (and good) stuff for fishkeeping water stripped out. Remineralisation puts back the good stuff. If you don't remineralise RO before use, you will probably crash your PH pretty quickly and kill the fish that way instead of the pollutant way... Did you ever want to become a bloody scientist? Fishkeeping is a good way to start

Edited by SeeFive on Wednesday 17th February 02:23

Thanks for this.

Yes, I think we have high nitrites in the water anyway. Perhaps some bought-in water is the way forward.

[budgie smuggler]

13m said:

Thanks for this.

Yes, I think we have high nitrites in the water anyway. Perhaps some bought-in water is the way forward.

Quite unlikely I would think. You might have nitr A te in the water (common in areas with farmland runoff). It's no problem though. Regular water changes will keep it at a low enough level. The toxic level is in the hundreds of PPM. ( ~800PPM for guppies). Floating plants or moss will remove it rapidly if you really want. I can send you some moss for the cost of postage next time I trim you you want?

Nitr I te can take 4-6 weeks or longer before it is handled by the biofilter. That's all there is to it. If you want to speed it up, then add some established media from somebody else, or use Tetra SafeStart

RO is unnecessary for a tank like this IMHO, and makes water changes a real ball ache.

This is my tank, hard & crappy Essex tap water. Fish are mostly various types of rainbows, plus an angel and some others which were dumped on me.


I ran it before this with no plants and it was fine then as well, just more water changes needed.

[SeeFive]

budgie smuggler said:

Quite unlikely I would think. You might have nitr A te in the water (common in areas with farmland runoff). It's no problem though. Regular water changes will keep it at a low enough level. The toxic level is in the hundreds of PPM. ( ~800PPM for guppies). Floating plants or moss will remove it rapidly if you really want. I can send you some moss for the cost of postage next time I trim you you want?

Nitr I te can take 4-6 weeks or longer before it is handled by the biofilter. That's all there is to it. If you want to speed it up, then add some established media from somebody else, or use Tetra SafeStart

RO is unnecessary for a tank like this IMHO, and makes water changes a real ball ache.

This is my tank, hard & crappy Essex tap water. Fish are mostly various types of rainbows, plus an angel and some others which were dumped on me.


I ran it before this with no plants and it was fine then as well, just more water changes needed.

Nice tank.

Sorry I have to disagree with your acceptable nitrate level despite what that plant oriented article said. Plants generally love nitrates. Although it is the least of the three evils, it is widely accepted that fish prefer lower levels than that article suggests.

Most fish keepers run at 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite and nitrate as low as possible, which I and most of the fishkeeping world seem to interpret to be below 40ppm for a healthy freshwater community tank, and lower for certain species. Sure the level of toxicity to kill 50% of fish inside 72 hours may well be higher as per that article, but is that what we should be aiming for? I aim for 0, 0, 10 even with such small filtration capacities as I have today and archive it with a steady PH of 7.4.

With a tap water level of 40, without RO, the lowest I could get would be 40 even if I changed all the water. For example, if my nitrate is 40 and I change 50% for 0 reading new RO water, then my new reading will be 20. If my reading is 40 and I change 50% for new water with a reading of 40, then obviously my new reading will be 40. If I do a 50% change on a tank reading 20 with tap water measuring 40, my new reading will be 30 - an INCREASE of 10.

So RO for me is absolutely necessary to dilute toxins and I don't really find it a ballache to visit my aquarist once a week to pick up two containers of water - it is always great to have a nose around.

Large water changes will dilute pollutants in the water, including nitrite but will not put nitrifying bacteria into the filter media. This lack is most likely why the op has a nitrite reading. Safe start is reportedly just the full range of nitrifying bacteria - not a chemical, so you can't overdose it. The fish-in process adds ammonia from fish waste which feeds the level 1 bacteria and keeps it all going across the cycle until it stabilises in a week of two in my limited experience of the product.

My best guess is that the op's tank is not yet cycled to deal with nitrite, but when it does, as nitrite drops the less toxic nitrate will increase and unless a chemical solution is used, or stock levels reman low enough for healthy, growing plants to be used as nitrite eaters, water changes will be necessary ongoing. As per my example, the lower readings you put in, the more impact water changes have on poor conditions. But don't use unmineralised RO or the PH buffer will vanish and PH will fluctuate wildly with potentially bad consequences.

OP, once you get your water in spec (which you will - it is just a question of how long it takes) add your new fish stock gradually. If you put a mass of fish in one go, you are instantly putting a mass of fish waste in too, and you will not have sufficient bacteria to handle it straight away. Some say that safe start also helps here, but I prefer to add stock gradually and let tank nature grow in volume organically to deal with the additions.

And finally remember, some aquarists sell unhealthy fish which no matter what you do will die on you in time. I am so far lucky with my supplier but I remember wiping a tank out 30 years ago by intoproducing a fish from a source I had not previously used without proper quarantine. You may want to have a good look around at alternative stockists and test a few out as you restock - Pets at Risk does not have the highest reputation among aquarists.

[budgie smuggler]

Thanks & yes I agree, I'm just trying to encourage him to keep it simple as possible. I don't think 40PPM of nitrate will cause any issues for those fish personally.

I've been through the pressurised co2, dosing meter, remineralised RO/DI water, etc It was fun but unnecessary (for my setup anyway).
At one point I was testing co2, KH, GH, nitrate, phosphate, ammonia, nitrite, pH, TDS every few days. Insane amount of time.

I can't grow the same plants & keep the same fish, but the ones I can are no less enjoyable.

On the quarantine thing, yes I've been there. Lost I think 30-40 cardinal tetras over a week or so after adding some from a local idiot-run shop, stupidly without quarantining.

Edited by budgie smuggler on Wednesday 17th February 12:24

[SeeFive]

budgie smuggler said:

Thanks & yes I agree, I'm just trying to encourage him to keep it simple as possible.

I've been through the pressurised co2, dosing meter, remineralised RO/DI water, etc It was fun but unnecessary (for my setup anyway).
At one point I was testing co2, KH, GH, nitrate, phosphate, ammonia, nitrite, pH, TDS every few days. Insane amount of time.

I can't grow the same plants & keep the same fish, but the ones I can are no less enjoyable.

On the quarantine thing, yes I've been there. Lost I think 30-40 cardinal tetras over a week or so after adding some from a local idiot-run shop, stupidly without quarantining.

Edited by budgie smuggler on Wednesday 17th February 12:14

Heh heh, yes, did all that complexity keeping marine inverts and fish combined. To be fair, once it had established, it was as simple as freshwater, but really needed a careful eye on broader and more detailed testing to nip any fluctuations in the bud - which was rare, mainly summer temperature driven. Main pain in the bum was "manufacturing" sea water at home. Due to the quantities involved, I had my own RO setup, which were a lot bigger back then! Then there was remineralisation for seawater... slightly more difficult than today's all-in-one powders.

That once I screwed up, I bought a parrot fish which wiped out silver sharks, red tailed black, hatchets, butterflies, khulis, angels, banded leoprinus, plecs and fig 8 puffers as well as the shoalers. Was not happy but my own stupid fault. Expensive and felt sorry for the fish. Never again... Quarantine or at least same, trusted supplier is my MO.

Plants for me have always been a secondary, decorative element in freshwater trops, so never run CO2. With such a small water column today, every bit of nitrate eater helps to keep my tiny volume of water ok for the fish, hence the need for healthy plants in my set up.

I agree, keeping it simple is the way to go. Keep a check on PH, ammonia, nitrite and nitrate and all should be good. Frankly, I don't monitor ammonia and nitrite as regularly as nitrate nowadays as I am confident that I am doing nothing to change it, and fish and shrimps all seem to be happy - and breeding meaning I had to set up the little fry tank to grow them on before taking them to the aquarist. The only thing that really pollutes my tank is fish waste and dying plants when I try something new and odd which doesn't like my fishy oriented lights and water

RO for me just means I can get to lower levels and not do so many / do smaller water changes to maintain them - so less effort and intrusion into the tank. To me, that equals a bit more simplicity for £3 a week outlay and a nice "enforced" trip to the fish shop for a browse, natter and the occasional extra impulse purchase

[budgie smuggler]

SeeFive said:

and the occasional extra impulse purchase

And therein lies the danger!!

[AlexC1981]

My nitrates are also 40ppm straight from the tap. I run my tap water through a cannister filled with Purolite before using it. It removes all the nitrates and once you have paid for the cannister and the Purolite there are basically no further costs.

The 10.5L cannister I bought should be good for 5000L of water before I would have to regenerate the Purolite, which is done by running a brine solution through it. Some info below, which is also the same place I bought my gear from:

http://www.devotedly-discus.co.uk/acatalog/Nitrate...

[Turn7]

I am also a Purolite user. Fantastic product.

I get plus 40ppm Nitrate from the tap and keep African cichlids - any plants in the tank have a life span of about 24 hours as they eat them.

I run a 600 litre tank and have a 240 litre water butt that I use to prepare my water for water changes.

Every Friday, the hose is connected up to a 10.5 litre Purolite filter, then through a 2 stage HMA filter, into the butt.

It is heated and aereated for 24 hours, and then I add Seachem Prime and Seachem Cichlid trace , before doing the water change on Sunday.

[13m]

Okay, so Platty 2 is still alive but looking poorly.

I have abandoned PAH and called our local aquatic centre to see if they could sell me some RO water. They basically said, "don't waste your money, the other Platty will die shortly, buy more Danios when it does".

They also said stop rinsing the filter in the tank (which is what PAH said we should do) and change the water less often - weekly to 2 weekly. We have been changing 20% every 2 days. Can anyone venture an opinion on what is the correct frequency please?

We've home tested the tap and tank water. The tank water is showing far higher (dangerous) nitrite levels. So the nitrites are definitely being produced in the tank.

[SeeFive]

13m said:

Okay, so Platty 2 is still alive but looking poorly.

I have abandoned PAH and called our local aquatic centre to see if they could sell me some RO water. They basically said, "don't waste your money, the other Platty will die shortly, buy more Danios when it does".

They also said stop rinsing the filter in the tank (which is what PAH said we should do) and change the water less often - weekly to 2 weekly. We have been changing 20% every 2 days. Can anyone venture an opinion on what is the correct frequency please?

We've home tested the tap and tank water. The tank water is showing far higher (dangerous) nitrite levels. So the nitrites are definitely being produced in the tank.

Kind of correct advice.

Do not wash filter media in tap water, chlorine kills the bacteria and you will cycle again (ammonia and nitrite issues). Rinse the filter media in tank water, but NOT while the water is still in the tank. When your filter shows signs of clogging, do a water change and rinse the media in the water that you have taken out and are not going to put back. I am surprised you need to clean filter media this early in the cycle unless you are dramatically over feeding or your plants are rotting and blocking it.

Your aquarist is probably right. Sadly, the platy may be permanently damaged by the nitrite. Choices are to see what happens or euthanise. Personally, if the fish is not in obvious difficulty, I would hang in there. A mate of mine had a goldfish sick in his pond. He transferred it to a tank in the garage to treat it, and when he went to take a look later, it had gone. He looked down and it was in a bag of cement which was starting to set on its fins! After a wash out including gills with the hose pipe, it was out back in the tank with a cover this time, and it got healthy again. Absolutely unreal as concrete is really toxic to fish.

Continue to cycle with what you have, and then look at stocking slowly. A good aquarist will not sell you any more fish if you explain your predicament.

ETA: there are loads of conflicting opinions on cycling and water changes on the Internet and with aquarium suppliers. The fad today is fish less cycling, but not something I can be arsed to do. This is what has worked for me using a fish-in cycle.

Did you go with safe start? If so, don't bother testing or changing any water for a week. Just keep everything crossed as the readings will be crazy and it is suggested that water changes inhibits safe start form acting in some way.

If not, I would continue with water changes but would not touch the filter media if it isn't clogged badly reducing flow by lots.

But how much and when? That is the big debate... If ammonia is low and nitrite is high, you have stage 1 bacteria in the filter - this is the cycle starting. My approach would be one big (say 50% at least) water change now to try to reduce nitrite if it is really high, and test to see what happens over the next two days. Your useful bacteria is not predominantly in the water column, but in the filter, on the glass and substrate / rocks / plants etc. So basically you can do almost what you want with water in your situation - unless you are using safe start.

If ammonia remains low, nitrate starts to lower and nitrate climbs, then second stage bacteria is colonising, which is a good thing. Keep monitoring. At that stage, I would go with 20% weekly water changes unless some indicator climbs horribly, and if so, I would go with a bigger water change to address that anomaly.

At no point in this process touch the filter media unless it clogs. Keep feeding minimal. Clear any melting plants frequently. These are your sources of pollutants (and fish poo of course, which you will need to provide ammonia for the stage 1 bacteria to feed off and survive). Don't use medications.

So, what happens in the cycle? Fish waste pollutes but also creates ammonia which feeds stage 1 bacteria. If no stage 1 guys are present (which in a new tank / filter there will not be), ammonia will rise.

When stage 1 bacteria are present, they feed off ammonia and turn it into nitrite. Is is less dangerous than ammonia, which will reduce as the nitrite rises if all is good.

Nitrite is consumed by the stage 2 bacteria which turns that into nitrate, which is even less toxic to fish than nitrite. Obviously without a stage 2 colony (which there won't be in anew tank), nitrite will rise as the ammonia is processed and not eaten and not turned into nitrate.

Once your stage 2 guys are there in numbers, the nitrite will fall and nitrate will rise. Ammonia should still stay low. This is when water changes complete the process of keeping nitrate in check, the rest is kept in check by the bacteria.

But there is still a place for water changes when either ammonia or nitrite rise to dangerous levels during a cycle IMO. You need to keep the fish alive to feed the stage 1 bacteria - without an ammonia source, it will die and you will be back to the start again. So if ammonia or nitrite is high, I would get the buckets and tubes out to try to dilute it and keep my fish going.

But, for sure someone will be along later with a different process that also works and may also help. Just pick one and stick to it. You will get there.

What would I do now? At this stage, with what I assume to be happening to you, The radical me would go for an 80%+ water change to get as much of the pollutants out as possible and add a suitable sized bottle of safe start, with a few fish and no plants to melt. Then just sit back for a week. But that would be very contentious... Almost starting again when you have clearly a stage 1 colony in place. And it probably won't save your platy.

But the reality is you can add safe start at any time - it is just good bacteria. But you just buy the right sized bottle and add the complete bottle, even if it is a bit too big for the tank. You can't overdose.

Bloody hell, that is a lot of words.. Sorry.

Edited by SeeFive on Thursday 18th February 18:34

[13m]

SeeFive said:

Your aquarist is probably right. Sadly, the platy may be permanently damaged by the nitrite. Choices are to see what happens or euthanise. Personally, if the fish is not in obvious difficulty, I would hang in there. A mate of mine had a goldfish sick in his pond. He transferred it to a tank in the garage to treat it, and when he went to take a look later, it had gone. He looked down and it was in a bag of cement which was starting to set on its fins! After a wash out including gills with the hose pipe, it was out back in the tank with a cover this time, and it got healthy again. Absolutely unreal as concrete is really toxic to fish.

Unfortunately, I haven't any cement to dip the platy in. Would Pollyfilla be okay?

You suggest the option of euthanasia, how do I tell if the fish is in need of it? It's hanging around the bottom of the tank most of the time, but it still feeds. Perhaps basic thinking, but I tend to assume if an animal is feeding it isn't totally finished.

[SeeFive]

13m said:

Unfortunately, I haven't any cement to dip the platy in. Would Pollyfilla be okay?

You suggest the option of euthanasia, how do I tell if the fish is in need of it? It's hanging around the bottom of the tank most of the time, but it still feeds. Perhaps basic thinking, but I tend to assume if an animal is feeding it isn't totally finished.

Difficult to tell. There are other signs. Body Colour change, unusual gill movement / gill colours, curling spine etc. At the moment, this guy sounds quite sad, but still eating so I would stick with him. Avoid polyfilla

We have talked a lot about pollutants, but do you have an air stone or does the filter output go across the surface of the water to oxygenate it? Oxygen can only enter water by touching its surface, so if you have no bubbles in your tank, then it is good to have something - like the filter output to move the surface and change the water that is in contact with the air.

Bigger fish will show more signs of oxygen depletion, which can result in a fish going quiet, or hanging at the surface depending on other factors. But again it is more likely to be nitrite poisoning - given PaH provided you with a good fish to start with of course.

Basically, from here, I don't have a clue how bad he is, but he just sounds slow at the moment.

[13m]

Thank you.

[13m]

Okay, so filter washed out in bucket of tank water. Filter repositioned to disturb the surface / cause bubbles.

How often for the water changes? I've had that many answers my head is spinning.