Any fish experts in the house?
Discussion
13m said:
Okay, so filter washed out in bucket of tank water. Filter repositioned to disturb the surface / cause bubbles.
How often for the water changes? I've had that many answers my head is spinning.
You will get loads more answers the more people you ask unfortunately. Fishkeeping opinions are like assholes, everyone has one. Everyone who has had success with fish has a different "secret" they want to share. I will have a go, but try to keep it simple.How often for the water changes? I've had that many answers my head is spinning.
What are your ammonia, nitrite and nitrate readings at the moment? That will define the size of first water change to protect your fish. The objective here is to dilute nitrite while the stage 2 bacteria colonises. If you have a 20 gallon tank and your nitrite reads 5ppm, then a 10 gallon change should drop it to 2.5 immediately. It is almost that simple, but of course it will rise again in line with the waste (ammonia) entering the tank in the form of fish waste and excess food etc to be processed by your stage 1 bacteria.
If I remember correctly you are lightly stocked, so apart from over feeding or substrate full of excess food etc, you should have low ammonia entering the tank. This means that with low ammonia, nitrite should not climb massively and remain for too long before being dealt with as the stage 2 guys grow into the filter.
My guess is that if nitrite is really high, do a 50% water change each day until it isn't too high. The first time do a gravel vac if you can. Given your advanced nitrites, over a few days, I would expect nitrates to start to show. At that point, nitrite increases could slow, level out or drop and you should go to smaller water changes to control nitrate. This may be high initially as nitrates sky rocked dealing with nitrite! falling to 10-20% a week depending on how your tank reacts.
During cycling, test all three critical levels frequently and record them - I use a spreadsheet with a column for dates and all 3 readings, the history is useful. Also have a column for comments - like 50% water change, new plant/fish added, algae growing etc. E.g.,
Date......... Ammonia...... Nitrite....... Nitrate........ Comment
18/2/16---------- 0.25. ---------- 5. ------------ 0. ------- Readings before 50% water change and gravel vac.
...And so on recording each test / change on a new line
It really is a case of diluting pollutants in the water at the moment to get to an acceptable level for the fish, then doing the minimum possible to maintain it as you watch the cycle complete. The history helps you understand what may be happening.
Feed minimally. Don't wash the filter media any more unless it really slows down badly, which of course you will see now in the surface disruption changes. The filter media is where your bacteria live in the main, and you want to keep them intact.
So that is about it. Your first water change will be defined by how much you need to reduce pollutants by dilution. You may need to do more than one large change over coming days to get to a safe nitrite level for the fish. Let's get that done first and then move on with the cycle.
Folks, feel free to add advice where your secrets help. It saves on using lager to make our heads spin
My feeling is that the tank is all over the place as its so new. Constant water changes are not helping in the assumed way as the tank is uncycled.
My harsh verdict would be to return the livestock if posible and cycle the filter properly.
Failing that - add safestart and follow the instructions on the bottle - ie, no water changes for at least a week I think it says ?
As I ve said before, small volumes of water can be very unstable regards to parameters, and in this case, it appears to very obvious that the water changes are swinging it willy nilly.
Id stop feeding for a couple of days at least.
My harsh verdict would be to return the livestock if posible and cycle the filter properly.
Failing that - add safestart and follow the instructions on the bottle - ie, no water changes for at least a week I think it says ?
As I ve said before, small volumes of water can be very unstable regards to parameters, and in this case, it appears to very obvious that the water changes are swinging it willy nilly.
Id stop feeding for a couple of days at least.
Turn7 said:
My feeling is that the tank is all over the place as its so new. Constant water changes are not helping in the assumed way as the tank is uncycled.
My harsh verdict would be to return the livestock if posible and cycle the filter properly.
Failing that - add safestart and follow the instructions on the bottle - ie, no water changes for at least a week I think it says ?
As I ve said before, small volumes of water can be very unstable regards to parameters, and in this case, it appears to very obvious that the water changes are swinging it willy nilly.
Id stop feeding for a couple of days at least.
From what I see, he OPs parameters are consistently high nitrite, indicating a partly cycled tank. I have asked for the ammonia and nitrate parameters to be recorded to get a better feel for where it is going forward.My harsh verdict would be to return the livestock if posible and cycle the filter properly.
Failing that - add safestart and follow the instructions on the bottle - ie, no water changes for at least a week I think it says ?
As I ve said before, small volumes of water can be very unstable regards to parameters, and in this case, it appears to very obvious that the water changes are swinging it willy nilly.
Id stop feeding for a couple of days at least.
Not sure about going fishless at this stage. If you return the livestock, then you have to go through the difficult method of adding ammonia in tiny but correct amounts to kick start and maintain the cycle, which is so much more difficult than correcting the current half cycled fish in (thus, fish providing ammonia) position.
Safe start is a fish in process. It will not work without fish. If safe start is not used, then the only way to quickly get to safer nitrite levels for the fish is via water changes. The water column only holds pollutants, not bacteria so the cycle should continue with lower levels.
I agree with stopped or very minimal feeding.
I was half tempted to suggest a large water change and adding safe start now, followed by leaving it alone for at least a week. This is the process I used from scratch on my last two 46ltr and 15ltr nano tanks which cycled in just over a week.
Fish for cycling were 2 sterbaii and 3 guppies in the bigger tank, and some guppy fry and 2 juliis in the smaller one. I still have them all alive after cycling so fast (well, I have passed the fry on and have hundreds of others now... Grrr) plus over time, added some cardinals, shrimps and substrate snails which piggy backed in on plants.
Dear god! Another person who thinks fish keeping is just a case of buying a tank, filling it with water and chucking some fish in. No wonder you're suffering dead fish!
Your 21 litre tank is far too small for a beginner. Small tanks are much more difficult to maintain than larger tanks, because the small body of water is much more prone to rapid changes in water chemistry. I am keeping a 25 litre tropical tank, but I'm an experienced aquarist with many years experience.
Also, regardless of your level of experience, your 21 litre tank is far, far, far too small for keeping platies. It is no surprise to me that you're losing them. Do NOT buy any more platies; do some research on what types of fish you can keep in such a small tank (hint: there aren't many species that are suitable).
The fish you're keeping are NOT cold water species. Danios will tolerate cooler water but platies won't. You need a heater. In fact, danios are well-known for being tough and having good tolerance for ammonia and nitrite, which is why they're surviving. But they're still having a miserable time in your tank's toxic water.
If you've got high nitrites, you urgently need to reduce the toxicity of the water in your tank. One product you could use is Seachem Prime, which does precisely that: it will convert ammonia, nitrites and nitrates into less toxic forms. It also neutralises chlorine and chloramine in your tapwater - you haven't mentioned whether you're doing that. If your local fish shop doesn't sell it then order it from Amazon and pay extra for next-day delivery - you need it urgently. For your tank you need only a tiny dose (about 0.5 ml), so buy a plastic syringe from a chemist to help you measure out the dose.
I am really rather angry that you have subjected fish to such misery, when it is so easy these days to research how to set up a fish tank. Did you not do any reading before you did it?! Did you take any advice, and if so from whom? If your only source of information has been a teenager working at Pets at Home, then I despair - go to a proper aquatic shop such as a branch of Maidenhead Aquatics, which are much better and can be found in lots of garden centres.
You should seriously consider buying a much larger tank, of at least 70-80 litres and preferably 100 litres or more. Get a heater, and a filter that's large enough for the bigger tank. The danios will continue to survive while the new tank cycles, but do not add any more fish until the tank has ZERO ammonia and nitrites. Then very gradually increase the number of fish. By the way, danios are a schooling species and should be kept in groups of at least 5 or 6, and preferably at least 10 - but your 21 litre tank is far too small for that many. Two danios on their own will be suffering stress due to being separated from the rest of their shoal.
Your 21 litre tank is far too small for a beginner. Small tanks are much more difficult to maintain than larger tanks, because the small body of water is much more prone to rapid changes in water chemistry. I am keeping a 25 litre tropical tank, but I'm an experienced aquarist with many years experience.
Also, regardless of your level of experience, your 21 litre tank is far, far, far too small for keeping platies. It is no surprise to me that you're losing them. Do NOT buy any more platies; do some research on what types of fish you can keep in such a small tank (hint: there aren't many species that are suitable).
The fish you're keeping are NOT cold water species. Danios will tolerate cooler water but platies won't. You need a heater. In fact, danios are well-known for being tough and having good tolerance for ammonia and nitrite, which is why they're surviving. But they're still having a miserable time in your tank's toxic water.
If you've got high nitrites, you urgently need to reduce the toxicity of the water in your tank. One product you could use is Seachem Prime, which does precisely that: it will convert ammonia, nitrites and nitrates into less toxic forms. It also neutralises chlorine and chloramine in your tapwater - you haven't mentioned whether you're doing that. If your local fish shop doesn't sell it then order it from Amazon and pay extra for next-day delivery - you need it urgently. For your tank you need only a tiny dose (about 0.5 ml), so buy a plastic syringe from a chemist to help you measure out the dose.
I am really rather angry that you have subjected fish to such misery, when it is so easy these days to research how to set up a fish tank. Did you not do any reading before you did it?! Did you take any advice, and if so from whom? If your only source of information has been a teenager working at Pets at Home, then I despair - go to a proper aquatic shop such as a branch of Maidenhead Aquatics, which are much better and can be found in lots of garden centres.
You should seriously consider buying a much larger tank, of at least 70-80 litres and preferably 100 litres or more. Get a heater, and a filter that's large enough for the bigger tank. The danios will continue to survive while the new tank cycles, but do not add any more fish until the tank has ZERO ammonia and nitrites. Then very gradually increase the number of fish. By the way, danios are a schooling species and should be kept in groups of at least 5 or 6, and preferably at least 10 - but your 21 litre tank is far too small for that many. Two danios on their own will be suffering stress due to being separated from the rest of their shoal.
Edited by Dr Mike Oxgreen on Friday 19th February 08:16
Dr Mike Oxgreen said:
Dear god! Another person who thinks fish keeping is just a case of buying a tank, filling it with water and chucking some fish in. No wonder you're suffering dead fish!
Your 21 litre tank is far too small for a beginner. Small tanks are much more difficult to maintain than larger tanks, because the small body of water is much more prone to rapid changes in water chemistry. I am keeping a 25 litre tropical tank, but I'm an experienced aquarist with many years experience.
Also, regardless of your level of experience, your 21 litre tank is far, far, far too small for keeping platies. It is no surprise to me that you're losing them. Do NOT buy any more platies; do some research on what types of fish you can keep in such a small tank (hint: there aren't many species that are suitable).
The fish you're keeping are NOT cold water species. Danios will tolerate cooler water but platies won't. You need a heater. In fact, danios are well-known for being tough and having good tolerance for ammonia and nitrite, which is why they're surviving. But they're still having a miserable time in your tank's toxic water.
If you've got high nitrites, you urgently need to reduce the toxicity of the water in your tank. One product you could use is Seachem Prime, which does precisely that: it will convert ammonia, nitrites and nitrates into less toxic forms. It also neutralises chlorine and chloramine in your tapwater - you haven't mentioned whether you're doing that. If your local fish shop doesn't sell it then order it from Amazon and pay extra for next-day delivery - you need it urgently. For your tank you need only a tiny dose (about 0.5 ml), so buy a plastic syringe from a chemist to help you measure out the dose.
I am really rather angry that you have subjected fish to such misery, when it is so easy these days to research how to set up a fish tank. Did you not do any reading before you did it?! Did you take any advice, and if so from whom? If your only source of information has been a teenager working at Pets at Home, then I despair - go to a proper aquatic shop such as a branch of Maidenhead Aquatics, which are much better and can be found in lots of garden centres.
You should seriously consider buying a much larger tank, of at least 70-80 litres and preferably 100 litres or more. Get a heater, and a filter that's large enough for the bigger tank. The danios will continue to survive while the new tank cycles, but do not add any more fish until the tank has ZERO ammonia and nitrites. Then very gradually increase the number of fish. By the way, danios are a schooling species and should be kept in groups of at least 5 or 6, and preferably at least 10 - but your 21 litre tank is far too small for that many. Two danios on their own will be suffering stress due to being separated from the rest of their shoal.
No, someone who went to the trouble of seeking the advice of a pet shop, then following that advice to the letter. I don't think my son could have been any more diligent.Your 21 litre tank is far too small for a beginner. Small tanks are much more difficult to maintain than larger tanks, because the small body of water is much more prone to rapid changes in water chemistry. I am keeping a 25 litre tropical tank, but I'm an experienced aquarist with many years experience.
Also, regardless of your level of experience, your 21 litre tank is far, far, far too small for keeping platies. It is no surprise to me that you're losing them. Do NOT buy any more platies; do some research on what types of fish you can keep in such a small tank (hint: there aren't many species that are suitable).
The fish you're keeping are NOT cold water species. Danios will tolerate cooler water but platies won't. You need a heater. In fact, danios are well-known for being tough and having good tolerance for ammonia and nitrite, which is why they're surviving. But they're still having a miserable time in your tank's toxic water.
If you've got high nitrites, you urgently need to reduce the toxicity of the water in your tank. One product you could use is Seachem Prime, which does precisely that: it will convert ammonia, nitrites and nitrates into less toxic forms. It also neutralises chlorine and chloramine in your tapwater - you haven't mentioned whether you're doing that. If your local fish shop doesn't sell it then order it from Amazon and pay extra for next-day delivery - you need it urgently. For your tank you need only a tiny dose (about 0.5 ml), so buy a plastic syringe from a chemist to help you measure out the dose.
I am really rather angry that you have subjected fish to such misery, when it is so easy these days to research how to set up a fish tank. Did you not do any reading before you did it?! Did you take any advice, and if so from whom? If your only source of information has been a teenager working at Pets at Home, then I despair - go to a proper aquatic shop such as a branch of Maidenhead Aquatics, which are much better and can be found in lots of garden centres.
You should seriously consider buying a much larger tank, of at least 70-80 litres and preferably 100 litres or more. Get a heater, and a filter that's large enough for the bigger tank. The danios will continue to survive while the new tank cycles, but do not add any more fish until the tank has ZERO ammonia and nitrites. Then very gradually increase the number of fish. By the way, danios are a schooling species and should be kept in groups of at least 5 or 6, and preferably at least 10 - but your 21 litre tank is far too small for that many. Two danios on their own will be suffering stress due to being separated from the rest of their shoal.
Edited by Dr Mike Oxgreen on Friday 19th February 08:16
But outside of your somewhat obnoxious start, thanks for the advice.
So what you're saying is that Pets at Home told you that a 21 litre tank was a suitable size for a beginner, and that danios and platies are cold water species, and it was they who told you you could simply fill with water and chuck the fish straight in immediately with no attempt to establish the tank first?
So the sum total of your research was turning up at a pet shop and having one conversation with a part-time shop assistant? And you think that's sufficient? The internet is awash with great information to help a beginner set up a tank successfully; did you not consider doing some wider research to check the quality of the advice you received at Pets at Home? If you had done five minutes' worth of Googling you'd have quickly discovered that the fish you were considering are tropical, not cold water, and you'd have read the fact that such a small tank is a potential disaster in inexperienced hands. It is laughable to suggest that you or your son were diligent.
The tone of my posts is not obnoxiousness; it is anger. I am very angry that your ignorance has subjected live fish to utter misery. I am also extremely angry at Pets at Home for giving you such truly terrible 'advice', and allowing you to buy totally the wrong fish for your tank when you simply weren't ready for them.
Out of interest, what age is your son, and to what extent did you supervise his purchases? Did Pets at Home sell a fish tank and fish to a child?
So the sum total of your research was turning up at a pet shop and having one conversation with a part-time shop assistant? And you think that's sufficient? The internet is awash with great information to help a beginner set up a tank successfully; did you not consider doing some wider research to check the quality of the advice you received at Pets at Home? If you had done five minutes' worth of Googling you'd have quickly discovered that the fish you were considering are tropical, not cold water, and you'd have read the fact that such a small tank is a potential disaster in inexperienced hands. It is laughable to suggest that you or your son were diligent.
The tone of my posts is not obnoxiousness; it is anger. I am very angry that your ignorance has subjected live fish to utter misery. I am also extremely angry at Pets at Home for giving you such truly terrible 'advice', and allowing you to buy totally the wrong fish for your tank when you simply weren't ready for them.
Out of interest, what age is your son, and to what extent did you supervise his purchases? Did Pets at Home sell a fish tank and fish to a child?
Edited by Dr Mike Oxgreen on Friday 19th February 09:07
Whilst I'm not a fan of PAH for fish purchases I do go in from time to time (Leicester, Fosse Park and St George's retail park) for cat stuff & usually have a wander round the fish section while I'm there. This means I've heard a few conversations between staff & customers - I've got big ears & I'm nosy Some of it very good & some of it very basic & from a crib sheet but factually correct.
The advice for purchasing a new tank is a correct setup but on each occasion the customer has been told they won't sell them any fish until the tank is set up & a sample of water has been brought in for testing.
There is a lot of good advice both here and on the internet on setting up a new tank ( and an interesting source of ammonia
) but you need to pick one and stick to it. Chopping & changing is not going to help.
If you are now speaking to a specialist fish shop then I'd suggest you do exactly what they tell you.
Possibly the quickest way to cycle is with water from an established tank or a piece of filter media from an established tank. When my last tank sprang a leak I removed much of the water into other containers & that formed the bulk of the water into the new tank and the new external filter.
IMO the fish you have are tropical. They need temps in the low 70s. You need a heater. I'm surprised that you were sold them for a coldwater tank. Whilst a fish may tolerate lower temperatures it isn't sensible to keep them in them. IIRC PAH do label each tank with instructions for the various fish on display & again IIRC the only coldwater fish other than goldfish (which aren't suitable for small tanks anyway) I've seen on a regular basis are white cloud mountain minnows.
You might find these worth a read:
http://www.fishkeeping.co.uk/articles_51/fishless-...
and
http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f12/fish-in-c...
Some of it very good & some of it very basic & from a crib sheet but factually correct. The advice for purchasing a new tank is a correct setup but on each occasion the customer has been told they won't sell them any fish until the tank is set up & a sample of water has been brought in for testing.
There is a lot of good advice both here and on the internet on setting up a new tank ( and an interesting source of ammonia
) but you need to pick one and stick to it. Chopping & changing is not going to help. If you are now speaking to a specialist fish shop then I'd suggest you do exactly what they tell you.
Possibly the quickest way to cycle is with water from an established tank or a piece of filter media from an established tank. When my last tank sprang a leak I removed much of the water into other containers & that formed the bulk of the water into the new tank and the new external filter.
IMO the fish you have are tropical. They need temps in the low 70s. You need a heater. I'm surprised that you were sold them for a coldwater tank. Whilst a fish may tolerate lower temperatures it isn't sensible to keep them in them. IIRC PAH do label each tank with instructions for the various fish on display & again IIRC the only coldwater fish other than goldfish (which aren't suitable for small tanks anyway) I've seen on a regular basis are white cloud mountain minnows.
You might find these worth a read:
http://www.fishkeeping.co.uk/articles_51/fishless-...
and
http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f12/fish-in-c...
Edited by paintman on Friday 19th February 09:49
Dr. Oxgreen, I'm with you, but actually variatus platies are a temperate species and will survive at room temperature no problem.
https://fishkeeper.co.uk/databank/plant/livebearer...
https://fishkeeper.co.uk/databank/plant/livebearer...
budgie smuggler said:
Dr. Oxgreen, I'm with you, but actually variatus platies are a temperate species and will survive at room temperature no problem.
https://fishkeeper.co.uk/databank/plant/livebearer...
That species is different from the typical run-of-the-mill platies that are usually offered for sale. I'm willing to bet those aren't the ones that P@H were selling. The usual platies require tropical temperatures, and unless the OP keeps his house at a generous and consistent temperature, they need a heater. That tiny tank will cool quickly overnight and suffer rapid temperature swings.https://fishkeeper.co.uk/databank/plant/livebearer...
I'm fascinated to know the circumstances of the OP's purchase. Did he buy the tank and fish at the same time, and hence he really did go home, fill the tank (with tapwater presumably, with a dechlorinator??) and chuck the fish straight in. Having been told these were cold water fish, were the poor things plunged straight into water from the cold tap - i.e. at a temperature of no more than about 10°C?
Dr Mike Oxgreen said:
That species is different from the typical run-of-the-mill platies that are usually offered for sale. I'm willing to bet those aren't the ones that P@H were selling.
Yes I know that they are a separate species. I have had a variatus from P@H myself having been unable to source them anywhere else locally. They are in a separate tank to the tropical ones with other temperate fish. Hopefully that's the case in all stores.
Dr Mike Oxgreen said:
So what you're saying is that Pets at Home told you that a 21 litre tank was a suitable size for a beginner, and that danios and platies are cold water species, and it was they who told you you could simply fill with water and chuck the fish straight in immediately with no attempt to establish the tank first?
So the sum total of your research was turning up at a pet shop and having one conversation with a part-time shop assistant? And you think that's sufficient? The internet is awash with great information to help a beginner set up a tank successfully; did you not consider doing some wider research to check the quality of the advice you received at Pets at Home? If you had done five minutes' worth of Googling you'd have quickly discovered that the fish you were considering are tropical, not cold water, and you'd have read the fact that such a small tank is a potential disaster in inexperienced hands. It is laughable to suggest that you or your son were diligent.
The tone of my posts is not obnoxiousness; it is anger. I am very angry that your ignorance has subjected live fish to utter misery. I am also extremely angry at Pets at Home for giving you such truly terrible 'advice', and allowing you to buy totally the wrong fish for your tank when you simply weren't ready for them.
Out of interest, what age is your son, and to what extent did you supervise his purchases? Did Pets at Home sell a fish tank and fish to a child?
Initially we relied upon the advice of PAH, who seemed to be diligent in vetting us for suitability. We had no reason to doubt their advice. When things did not improve, we spoke to another branch of PAH, who echoed the advice of the first. When things still were not right I posted here and have had some very helpful responses. I also spoke to our nearest aquatic centre who broadly confirmed what PAH said to us in the first place.So the sum total of your research was turning up at a pet shop and having one conversation with a part-time shop assistant? And you think that's sufficient? The internet is awash with great information to help a beginner set up a tank successfully; did you not consider doing some wider research to check the quality of the advice you received at Pets at Home? If you had done five minutes' worth of Googling you'd have quickly discovered that the fish you were considering are tropical, not cold water, and you'd have read the fact that such a small tank is a potential disaster in inexperienced hands. It is laughable to suggest that you or your son were diligent.
The tone of my posts is not obnoxiousness; it is anger. I am very angry that your ignorance has subjected live fish to utter misery. I am also extremely angry at Pets at Home for giving you such truly terrible 'advice', and allowing you to buy totally the wrong fish for your tank when you simply weren't ready for them.
Out of interest, what age is your son, and to what extent did you supervise his purchases? Did Pets at Home sell a fish tank and fish to a child?
Edited by Dr Mike Oxgreen on Friday 19th February 09:07
Out of everyone who has offered advice, you are the only one who is angry. Everyone else has been sympathetic and helpful. That should probably tell you something.
The lad has been supervised throughout by my wife and we have done everything in our power to ensure that the problem is rectified as soon as possible.
If you want to offer advice, it will be gratefully received. If on the other hand you just want to be angry at someone, reserve your attention for someone that deserves it.
13m said:
We had no reason to doubt their advice.
If you had done your own research then you would have had plenty of reason to doubt the awful advice they were giving you. Despite presumably knowing that you only had a 21 litre tank, they let you buy danios (we don't know which - most likely zebra danios?), all of which are quite fast-swimming fish that need a reasonable amount of tank space, and platies, which are much too big. And they sold you just two danios - without telling you that they're schooling fish that should really be kept in larger groups. Kept alone or in just a pair, danios can become stressed and slightly aggressive, nipping at the fins of other fish.I really have no idea why everyone else is being so sympathetic, but that's up to them - I don't have to follow the herd. The fact is that you have brought all these problems on yourself by buying animals without doing any research about how to care for them, and relying on the non-specialist 'advice' of whoever served you at a non-specialist pet shop. Whenever I've been in P@H, there is never a member of staff dedicated to the aquatic section, so you would get served by whichever member of staff happened to be wandering by - and they're not all going to have in-depth knowledge of fishkeeping.
I wouldn't dream of walking into any pet shop and buying an animal with specialist requirements like, for example, a reptile - without spending considerable time researching the subject myself. You'll note that despite being a fairly experienced fishkeeper, I posted my plans and invited criticism before I went ahead and set up my nano tank. Perhaps I take the keeping of animals more seriously than you do.
You want advice? Here you go...
- Please, buy a bigger tank. You are always going to struggle with such a small tank until you're much more experienced. You will also have a much wider choice of fish species in a larger tank.
- Buy a heater, unless you choose fish that are genuinely non-tropical (someone mentioned White Cloud Mountain Minnows, which can be kept in a centrally-heated room without a heater in the tank). But to be honest, there are not many temperate fish species commonly available - you'd be much better off buying a heater and keeping your tank somewhere between about 22 to 25 degrees (or possibly a touch higher depending on exactly which fish you choose), which will give you a much wider choice of fish species.
- Whatever you do, don't try to keep genuine cold-water fish in a tank that small - especially not goldfish. Biological filtration proceeds more slowly at lower temperatures, and goldfish are heavy polluters and grow far too big for that tank. You could keep a small population of smaller coldwater species if you went for a larger tank, but really goldfish are unsuitable for all but the largest tanks IMHO.
- Only start increasing the population of fish in your larger tank once you've achieved zero ammonia and nitrite, and then increase the population slowly to give your bacterial colony a chance to increase and adapt. Recent research shows that bacterial populations are much more complex than the simple Nitrobacter/Nitrosomonas model traditionally described, and you actually need different bacteria at different concentrations of ammonia and nitrite - so you need to give the little fellas plenty of time to adapt.
- Whilst you've still got any measurable quantity of ammonia or nitrite in your tank, you really must continue with 50% water changes every other day to reduce the toxicity to your fish. Provided you replace the water with properly dechlorinated and reasonably temperature-matched water, this will not inhibit the development of a bacterial colony, because the bacteria do not exist in the water in any significant numbers - they exist on the surface of substrate, plants, decorations and filter media. As I previously recommended, Seachem Prime will also reduce that toxicity, leaving the ammonia/nitrite still accessible to the bacterial colony.
Edited by Dr Mike Oxgreen on Friday 19th February 16:13
Dr Mike Oxgreen said:
You want advice? Here you go...
Thank you for that.- Please, buy a bigger tank. You are always going to struggle with such a small tank until you're much more experienced. You will also have a much wider choice of fish species in a larger tank.
- Buy a heater, unless you choose fish that are genuinely non-tropical (someone mentioned White Cloud Mountain Minnows, which can be kept in a centrally-heated room without a heater in the tank). But to be honest, there are not many temperate fish species commonly available - you'd be much better off buying a heater and keeping your tank somewhere between about 22 to 25 degrees (or possibly a touch higher depending on exactly which fish you choose), which will give you a much wider choice of fish species.
- Whatever you do, don't try to keep genuine cold-water fish in a tank that small - especially not goldfish. Biological filtration proceeds more slowly at lower temperatures, and goldfish are heavy polluters and grow far too big for that tank. You could keep a small population of smaller coldwater species if you went for a larger tank, but really goldfish are unsuitable for all but the largest tanks IMHO.
- Only start increasing the population of fish in your larger tank once you've achieved zero ammonia and nitrite, and then increase the population slowly to give your bacterial colony a chance to increase and adapt. Recent research shows that bacterial populations are much more complex than the simple Nitrobacter/Nitrosomonas model traditionally described, and you actually need different bacteria at different concentrations of ammonia and nitrite - so you need to give the little fellas plenty of time to adapt.
- Whilst you've still got any measurable quantity of ammonia or nitrite in your tank, you really must continue with 50% water changes every other day to reduce the toxicity to your fish. Provided you replace the water with properly dechlorinated and reasonably temperature-matched water, this will not inhibit the development of a bacterial colony, because the bacteria do not exist in the water in any significant numbers - they exist on the surface of substrate, plants, decorations and filter media. As I previously recommended, Seachem Prime will also reduce that toxicity, leaving the ammonia/nitrite still accessible to the bacterial colony.
Edited by Dr Mike Oxgreen on Friday 19th February 16:13
13m, chances are you've now seen it, but this thread is Dr M setting up his tank. An interesting read.
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Poisson96 said:
Just also a heads up, I left my tanks when setup etc for 6 weeks before I even thought of adding fish, with the usual water changes and using other tankwater to start the filtration...
Ours would have been 10 days.I must say that this has been an education. The key learning point I think is that fish are not a good pet for children. Firstly it would seem that the actual equipment required is outside pocket money budget, secondly it's quite an ordeal getting the conditions right and also the mortality is upsetting.
On that last point, even our local aquatic centre says they lose lots of platies.
13m said:
Ours would have been 10 days.
I must say that this has been an education. The key learning point I think is that fish are not a good pet for children. Firstly it would seem that the actual equipment required is outside pocket money budget, secondly it's quite an ordeal getting the conditions right and also the mortality is upsetting.
On that last point, even our local aquatic centre says they lose lots of platies.
Wow! That escalated quickly as they say I must say that this has been an education. The key learning point I think is that fish are not a good pet for children. Firstly it would seem that the actual equipment required is outside pocket money budget, secondly it's quite an ordeal getting the conditions right and also the mortality is upsetting.
On that last point, even our local aquatic centre says they lose lots of platies.
We all have to start somewhere and seasoned fish keepers can help, although we will all have different opinions on what is the best way. One thing for sure, it seems like the agreement is to reduce the toxins on the water whilst letting bacteria stabilise to deal with it naturally going forward. So keep up the monitoring and water changes and good luck. Despite how it seems, my guess is that everyone is very supportive of you here as you try to correct the position.
With regard to fish not being a good hobby for kids, with a few exceptions - yes I would agree. Tanks, especially small tanks take a religiously applied routine to keep fish friendly, and as we know kids and continued routine tend not to go well together. My daughter saw my small tanks at the apartment and thought that would be good for her daughter, until I mentioned how much time I spend every week keeping them in order. There is little difference compared to the massive set ups I had when she was young, which kind of confused her.
SeeFive said:
With regard to fish not being a good hobby for kids, with a few exceptions - yes I would agree. Tanks, especially small tanks take a religiously applied routine to keep fish friendly, and as we know kids and continued routine tend not to go well together.
It's not so much the adherence to routine, it's the complexity and anxiety attached to it all. There are better first time pets.One of our children has a hamster, which seems altogether more suitable and again it was bought from PAH. He seems to be settling in well, though sometimes he becomes exhausted and we find him floating on the surface of the tank.
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