Dog attacked for fourth time

[krusty]

Oddly enough I have the same issue with my Chocolate Lab and Springers. They just seem to pick on her yet never go anywhere near by black Lab. I'm wary this now and keep her close if I spot any but it's still a pain.

[moorx]

bigbob77 said:

Thanks for that, yes I would be interested in the details

No problem. This is the Training and Behaviour section, where it would probably be best to ask:

http://www.dogpages.org.uk/forums/index.php?showfo...

[BigLion]

bigbob77 said:

moorx said:

I'm glad that you seem to have CM sussed

I'm definitely not suitably qualified to advise, but I do know of a very good dog forum where I am happy to ask for recommendations of behaviourists (if that is something you want to explore again)? I would need to know what area you're in if so.

Alternatively, if you would like to post yourself, I can give you the details.

Thanks for that, yes I would be interested in the details

He stopped getting worse about a year ago. He's still a PITA but slowly getting better so I'm sticking to our current routine. If things take a turn for the worse again I'll definitely explore new behaviourists, especially since I've found out our pet insurance will cover the cost!

BigLion - You're getting confused. I didn't say anything about keeping him on the lead? The opposite - he's a lot better behaved off the lead and both him and his "brother" are very obedient so no issues there.

I was referencing the fact you want others to keep their dogs on leads to stop them attacking your lab.

However its seems the issue is on your side and hence I was suggesting why don't you keep your lab on the lead for saftey at least.

Re the other poster saying CM operates on fear - he doesn't, he works of respect and love. However sometimes you need to put down your alpha position down on a dog that may constantly challenge you for the top spot, otherwise with a strong dog breed (Pitbull, German Shepherd, Rotty, Dobi) you will be screwed. For little dogs you can get away with it, but also explains why most dog bites come from those little yappers.

Each to their own, but I'm out of this thread and wish everyone all the best.

[bexVN]

He really doesn't I've worked with dogs for 26years usually when they are at their most stressed. I have very good dog trainer/ behaviourist (and successful) friends who will never condone his methods. It most definitely isn't out of love or respect!! He is just a clever manipulater of the TV etc.

[bigbob77]

BigLion said:

I was referencing the fact you want others to keep their dogs on leads to stop them attacking your lab.

Err... no, I didn't say that and never would. I do think some dog owners should teach their dogs to behave before letting them off in a public area. At the very least they should have reliable recall. Not like the Collie owner above who had to chase it around the park (screaming his head off) for 10 minutes to get its lead back on so they could go home.

BigLion said:

Each to their own, but I'm out of this thread and wish everyone all the best.

That's OK I'm surprised there's anyone left on this thread after my earlier rant

I find Cesar Milan entertaining. He's probably less bad than many dog trainers although that's really not saying much. But his programmes are just the highlights, they don't show his many failed attempts or the actual processes used, only the "fun" bits. The worst thing about him is that he has spawned millions of armchair behaviourists with just enough knowledge to get themselves into trouble.

Edited by bigbob77 on Thursday 28th April 17:06

[TheLordJohn]

I've not said much (since the first page...) but anyone condoning CM's techniques are fking goons, as far as I'm concerned.

[bexVN]

TheLordJohn said:

I've not said much (since the first page...) but anyone condoning CM's techniques are fking goons, as far as I'm concerned.

no holding back there

[BigLion]

TheLordJohn said:

I've not said much (since the first page...) but anyone condoning CM's techniques are fking goons, as far as I'm concerned.

No you're obviously right - out of interest how many dogs have you rehabilitated and more so how many were large powerful breeds whose very DNA is about being the alpha?

Can you post a link of a CM episode that you particularly dislike and explain which techniques you find unacceptable and the alternatives? Obviously to make such a sweeping statement you're an expert so I'm ready to be taught

[bexVN]

BigLion said:

TheLordJohn said:

I've not said much (since the first page...) but anyone condoning CM's techniques are fking goons, as far as I'm concerned.

No you're obviously right - out of interest how many dogs have you rehabilitated and more so how many were large powerful breeds whose very DNA is about being the alpha?

Can you post a link of a CM episode that you particularly dislike and explain which techniques you find unacceptable and the alternatives? Obviously to make such a sweeping statement you're an expert so I'm ready to be taught

The problem I have is you mentioned dobermann in your large powerful breed etc etc.

Honestly these vast majority of them are full on wussbags, males aswell.

Why do you find him so brilliant? From what you have seen on TV or have you properly researched him. If you have I would find it hard to believe that anyone with any credible knowledge of dogs, that you are suggesting you have, would still adhere to his methods.

Just the fact that he loves prong collars should be enough to turn you off him!

[bexVN]

https://youtu.be/RO1LoZTmLOY

This is a classic case of not recognising the dogs stresses and pre warnings.

[BigLion]

bexVN said:

BigLion said:

TheLordJohn said:

I've not said much (since the first page...) but anyone condoning CM's techniques are fking goons, as far as I'm concerned.

No you're obviously right - out of interest how many dogs have you rehabilitated and more so how many were large powerful breeds whose very DNA is about being the alpha?

Can you post a link of a CM episode that you particularly dislike and explain which techniques you find unacceptable and the alternatives? Obviously to make such a sweeping statement you're an expert so I'm ready to be taught

The problem I have is you mentioned dobermann in your large powerful breed etc etc.

Honestly these vast majority of them are full on wussbags, males aswell.

Why do you find him so brilliant? From what you have seen on TV or have you properly researched him. If you have I would find it hard to believe that anyone with any credible knowledge of dogs, that you are suggesting you have, would still adhere to his methods.

Just the fact that he loves prong collars should be enough to turn you off him!

Depends what line of dobermans you get - believe me a working line is a very good protection dog.

He has never used prong collars from what I have seen, if anything he tells owners off for having it as an intense dog would get more intense as the choke occurs.

[BigLion]

bexVN said:

https://youtu.be/RO1LoZTmLOY

This is a classic case of not recognising the dogs stresses and pre warnings.

He did 6 seasons from memory - so apart from that one infamous bite anything else?

Oh by the way why not have a look at how Holly is now?

http://youtu.be/wlN6NsbWAQg



Or even look at the same episode with a bit more detail beyond the bandwagon
http://youtu.be/qpNCcgjaV20

Edited by BigLion on Thursday 28th April 18:49

[bexVN]

BigLion said:

bexVN said:

https://youtu.be/RO1LoZTmLOY

This is a classic case of not recognising the dogs stresses and pre warnings.

He did 6 seasons from memory - so apart from that one infamous bite anything else?

I don't have all evening to pander to you. Look it up, it is not difficult. If you are too obstinate to at least try and see the other perspective then that is not my problem. I don't have the inclination to debate it further. I was fooled by him until I found out more about him.

As I said working with all breeds day in and day out for a lot more than half my life when they are in their most stressed state I am very comfortable in my knowledge of reading a dogs body language and 99% of 'problematic' dogs will be fear based responses, not dominance.

[BigLion]

bexVN said:

BigLion said:

bexVN said:

https://youtu.be/RO1LoZTmLOY

This is a classic case of not recognising the dogs stresses and pre warnings.

He did 6 seasons from memory - so apart from that one infamous bite anything else?

I don't have all evening to pander to you. Look it up, it is not difficult. If you are too obstinate to at least try and see the other perspective then that is not my problem. I don't have the inclination to debate it further. I was fooled by him until I found out more about him.

As I said working with all breeds day in and day out for a lot more than half my life when they are in their most stressed state I am very comfortable in my knowledge of reading a dogs body language and 99% of 'problematic' dogs will be fear based responses, not dominance.

See my edits added, watch they videos then think about what you have written.

Fact is people like to jump on the bandwagon.

Anyhow if you look at the videos you can see how much time, energy and effort he put into holly and how much progress she made - and all this stuff about using fear the other link shows holly coming upto him and licking his face / playing.

I'm out.

[bigbob77]

BigLion said:

large powerful breeds whose very DNA is about being the alpha?

That doesn't make sense. Are you saying these breeds of dogs cannot co-exist - they must live as a single dog only? Dogs don't care what size they are. Some big powerful dogs are spoiled princesses, some tiny dogs are fearless killers, and vice-versa.
I can't remember what your hero's take on that is... But I'd be really surprised if he ever said that big powerful dogs are wired differently to small dogs somehow?

BigLion said:

Oh by the way why not have a look at how Holly is now?
http://youtu.be/wlN6NsbWAQg

... Have you actually seen the full episode? That is how she was before. She was a submissive, playful, gentle dog... with fear issues while eating.


I'm really sorry this thread seems to have turned me into this:

[BigLion]

^ I cannot be asked to argue with quotes and multi quotes - it's hard enough on an ipad as it is etc.

That holly episode I watched the whole programme (I've watched all season including the 911 episodes) when the owners were TERRIFIED of the lab and very distressed - and they were terrified that holly might attack their child. However if you think holly was playful and resource guarding is a flight response then so be it.

I believe I'm right, you believe you're right and tom, dick and Harry think they are right etc. etc.

Sod it, each to their own - shrug!

Enjoy

[bexVN]

Sorry Bigbob77, never meant to derail your thread.

Being told to 'have a think' by BigLion makes me laugh though. Not sure who they think they are but as they have said for a 2nd time "I'm out" I guess we will never find out!!

Anyway general consensus of those who have experience in the animal profession is that CM is not someone to look up to.

I really hope you can find a trigger for the attacks at least you could then work on sorting it (unless it is because of his black face, that would be tough!)

And resource guarding IS a recognised fear behaviour not dominance.

Edited by bexVN on Thursday 28th April 21:15

[AdiT]

Not sure I believe the "black face" theory given the number of black Labs out there not getting constantly attacked.

[bexVN]

AdiT said:

Not sure I believe the "black face" theory given the number of black Labs out there not getting constantly attacked.

I think there is a bit more to it aswell. Eg if the dog is not clear in the rest of its body language and then they can't read the face aswell as in other colours.

My last dog was playful and joined in playing with dogs of all shapes and sizes but he was submissive aswell, however he was always more likely to back off playing with black dogs that were lively aswell. Anecdotal obviously but it was very noticeable. He played with rottie's but they have the brown patches above their eyes

[bigbob77]

Yeah I don't think the black face thing is to blame, although it makes sense that it would be a small factor especially to more visual dogs like Collies.

The Collie's owner had no control at all over his dog and it should never have been loose in that state. He had three dogs and the other two were fine. I remember he was also holding a tennis ball launcher... I know my Collie gets jealous if I pay attention to other dogs while I should be throwing the ball. Maybe this other Collie got confused and saw my Lab as "competition" between him and the ball. Who knows.

Anyway, thanks for all the helpful opinions/advice on this thread. However I am going to ignore them all and instead follow BL's advice and show my Lab who's alpha! How dare he be scared!?? If I see even one little hint of fear in his eyes HE IS GOING DOWN