Help need knowledgeable aquatics PH'ers!
Discussion
Posting on behalf of teenage Solo2!
I'm new to all this and have a 25l tank and I appear to have been misinformed and have some stressed and now injured fish.
Friday put first fish in tank when water was tested as ready. In go two Danio and all good. Saturday having had advice I added two Cherry Barbs and two speckled/spotted Barbs.
Now the speckled or spotted Barbs only have one eye each as the Danio appear to be attacking them and the cherry Barbs won't come out of hiding at the bottom on the tank.
Went to a well know at home pet shop tonight and was told to check for ammonia, PH, Nitrite, Nitrate, KH & GH.
Readings are:
Ammonia was 0.25mg/l so added aquarium salts under at recommended doseage
KH was at 120mg/l and should read 180mg/l
PH is within normal tolerance
Nitrite was 0.5mg/l and was told needs to be 0 mg/l
Nitrate 20mg/l and told I need 40mg/l
I realise now that I've added one or two too many fish and the advise I got was incorrect and I've mixed too many different types of fish but that does not help me in the short term. I want to do the best I can for them now.
What should I do to sort out the water and is there anything I can add that might calm them down and stop them fighting/hurting each other and is likely to continue and they will always fight?
I'm new to all this and have a 25l tank and I appear to have been misinformed and have some stressed and now injured fish.
Friday put first fish in tank when water was tested as ready. In go two Danio and all good. Saturday having had advice I added two Cherry Barbs and two speckled/spotted Barbs.
Now the speckled or spotted Barbs only have one eye each as the Danio appear to be attacking them and the cherry Barbs won't come out of hiding at the bottom on the tank.
Went to a well know at home pet shop tonight and was told to check for ammonia, PH, Nitrite, Nitrate, KH & GH.
Readings are:
Ammonia was 0.25mg/l so added aquarium salts under at recommended doseage
KH was at 120mg/l and should read 180mg/l
PH is within normal tolerance
Nitrite was 0.5mg/l and was told needs to be 0 mg/l
Nitrate 20mg/l and told I need 40mg/l
I realise now that I've added one or two too many fish and the advise I got was incorrect and I've mixed too many different types of fish but that does not help me in the short term. I want to do the best I can for them now.
What should I do to sort out the water and is there anything I can add that might calm them down and stop them fighting/hurting each other and is likely to continue and they will always fight?
I'd suggest you buy a tiny quarantine tank for the injured fish. As for the water, I've found over many years it's best to let it settle on it's own. Once you start interfering and adding chemicals you'll do more harm then good. Can you partition the tank tonight or provide a hiding place for the injured fish?
I doubt the fish have really polluted the water in such a short time. You could remove a quarter of the water and replace with water that's stood for a few hours. You could also add bacteria medium to your filtration to help kick start it into life.
I doubt the fish have really polluted the water in such a short time. You could remove a quarter of the water and replace with water that's stood for a few hours. You could also add bacteria medium to your filtration to help kick start it into life.
Edited by Boosted LS1 on Monday 25th July 22:18
solo2 said:
Readings are:
Ammonia was 0.25mg/l so added aquarium salts under at recommended doseage
KH was at 120mg/l and should read 180mg/l
PH is within normal tolerance
Nitrite was 0.5mg/l and was told needs to be 0 mg/l
Nitrate 20mg/l and told I need 40mg/l
Ammonia needs to be zero. Same for nitrite. Your tank is not yet mature, and I'm afraid you've added too many fish too quickly.Ammonia was 0.25mg/l so added aquarium salts under at recommended doseage
KH was at 120mg/l and should read 180mg/l
PH is within normal tolerance
Nitrite was 0.5mg/l and was told needs to be 0 mg/l
Nitrate 20mg/l and told I need 40mg/l
Forget KH. Don't bother testing it - the fish you're keeping don't care. Don't worry about pH either - it's very unlikely to be outside the range that these fish will tolerate.
Your nitrate reading is perfectly fine. Aim for a MAXIMUM of 50-60 mg/l - and for the health of the fish lower is better. Higher readings will not kill fish, but long term will affect their health.
25 litres is a very small tank, and this makes it very difficult for a novice. I have a 25 litre tank, but I am an experienced aquarist and the tank has lots of technology supporting it, plus LOTS of plant life. I also do very regular water changes (every week if possible). Small quantities of water are much less stable and are prone to changes in water quality and chemistry; a larger body of water will change much more slowly.
I strongly recommend you swap the tank for a bigger one - at least 60 litres. In the meantime, do a 50% water change every other day, and make sure you treat the new water with a water conditioner (most importantly they remove chlorine and chloramine from your tap water). This will help dilute any ammonia and nitrite. Don't use water straight from the tap without treating it to remove chlorine/chloramine, and try to match the water temperature by adding a small amount of boiling water.
Edited by Dr Mike Oxgreen on Thursday 28th July 18:03
Poisson96 said:
Also don't return to said chain for fish or advice. Not great with either. Use Facebook to link up with local owners as well. Where in the country are you?
Said chain actually have appeared to be far more helpful and knowledgeable than a small independent shop which didn't seem so knowledgeable.We're in Surrey.
Nimby said:
Danios are tropical.
Having gone back to where we purchased the Danio's we were told they had cold and tropical Danio and we had bought some from the cold water tank. Then added tropical fish in an unheated tank. I guess by telling another shop we had Danio's the assumption was made we had a tropical tank. We didn't at that point.The danio's have been rehomed to a cold water owner and the water for the barbs now heated.
Dr Mike Oxgreen said:
Ammonia needs to be zero. Same for nitrite. Your tank is not yet mature, and I'm afraid you've added too many fish too quickly.
Forget KH. Don't bother testing it - the fish you're keeping don't care. Don't worry about pH either - it's very unlikely to be outside the range that these fish will tolerate.
Your nitrate reading is perfectly fine. Aim for a MAXIMUM of 50-60 mg/l - and for the health of the fish lower is better. Higher readings will not kill fish, but long term will affect their health.
25 litres is a very small tank, and this makes it very difficult for a novice. I have a 25 litre tank, but I am an experienced aquarist and the tank has lots of technology supporting it, plus LOTS of plant life. I also do very regular water changes (every week if possible). Small quantities of water are much less stable and are prone to changes in water quality and chemistry; a larger body of water will change much more slowly.
I strongly recommend you swap the tank for a bigger one - at least 60 litres. In the meantime, do a 50% water change every other day, and make sure you treat the new water with a water conditioner (most importantly they remove chlorine and chloramine from your tap water). This will help dilute any ammonia and nitrite. Don't use water straight from the tap without treating it to remove chlorine/chloramine, and try to match the water temperature by adding a small amount of boiling water.
Cannot get a bigger tank as no room for anything bigger but unfortunately we lost both cherry barbs during the day yesterday. They had always been at the bottom of the tank and I guess going from a warmed tank in the shop to an unheated one for 4 days to a slowly increased heated tank was too much for them.Forget KH. Don't bother testing it - the fish you're keeping don't care. Don't worry about pH either - it's very unlikely to be outside the range that these fish will tolerate.
Your nitrate reading is perfectly fine. Aim for a MAXIMUM of 50-60 mg/l - and for the health of the fish lower is better. Higher readings will not kill fish, but long term will affect their health.
25 litres is a very small tank, and this makes it very difficult for a novice. I have a 25 litre tank, but I am an experienced aquarist and the tank has lots of technology supporting it, plus LOTS of plant life. I also do very regular water changes (every week if possible). Small quantities of water are much less stable and are prone to changes in water quality and chemistry; a larger body of water will change much more slowly.
I strongly recommend you swap the tank for a bigger one - at least 60 litres. In the meantime, do a 50% water change every other day, and make sure you treat the new water with a water conditioner (most importantly they remove chlorine and chloramine from your tap water). This will help dilute any ammonia and nitrite. Don't use water straight from the tap without treating it to remove chlorine/chloramine, and try to match the water temperature by adding a small amount of boiling water.
So currently I have a tank on 26 degrees with the two spotted/speckled barbs only left. They appear to have always and still are swimming around happily enough but I am concerned that they have not eaten the flaked food I put in there a day ago.
I'll do a water change tonight adding water conditioner but how do you allow it to stand to work and then have the water warm enough to put it in a tropical tank? I thought the water needed to stand for 4 odd hours but if I put part hot water in from the kettle in the beginning it would be largely cold after 4 hours.
This is beginning to get way too complicated for me and teen Solo2!
Water conditioners dechlorinate the water pretty much instantly. Fill bucket with tap water, add small amount of boiling water until the temperature is within a degree of the tank's temperature, add conditioner according to the instructions on the bottle, stir, then it's ready to use.
I'm confused about what species of danio you have/had. As far as I know, they're all tropical - although generally they will tolerate water at the cooler end of the tropical scale (low twenties). Did they have thin horizontal dark stripes (zebra danio) or small dark spots (leopard danio)? Those are the most commonly sold species, and both are tropical. But both are completely unsuitable for such a small tank - being highly active swimmers, they need a longer tank with plenty of space to move around.
To be honest there are very few species of fish that will be truly happy in such a small tank. In my tank I keep chili rasboras, which are about the smallest species of fish you can get - about 1.5 cm when fully grown. They are also not highly active swimmers. But they're not often seen in fish shops. An alternative is the very similar Phoenix rasbora. At a push you could keep half a dozen neon tetras, but even they're not really ideal for such a small tank.
The fish you have, spotted barbs, are a terrible choice for a small tank. They grow to 10cm or more, and require lots of swimming space. If you can't go for a bigger tank, then you really must swap them for something more suitable.
Also, most of the fish you've tried so far are shoaling fish, which will suffer stress if kept in ones or twos. It is probably the reason why your danios became aggressive. Stress is yet another thing that will weaken fish and leave them more open to disease. Most of these fish need to be kept in groups of at least half a dozen at a minimum.
Now that you have converted to a heated tank at 26°C, you could keep a male Siamese Fighter (Betta splendens), but only one (he will be quite happy on his own, and absolutely must not be kept with other male fighters), and don't keep him with the barbs or they'll rip his fins to pieces. You could possibly keep 2 females with him - you need more than one because the males tend to be quite aggressive towards the females, but your tank isn't big enough for any more than that. And with a male fighter and two females, that's about the maximum fish load I'd recommend for a novice in such a small tank.
But before doing anything else, you need to do 50% water changes every other day until your ammonia and nitrite readings stay nailed at zero. Get rid of the barbs because they're hopelessly unsuitable, and choose something more suitable. Then add the fish gradually.
I'm confused about what species of danio you have/had. As far as I know, they're all tropical - although generally they will tolerate water at the cooler end of the tropical scale (low twenties). Did they have thin horizontal dark stripes (zebra danio) or small dark spots (leopard danio)? Those are the most commonly sold species, and both are tropical. But both are completely unsuitable for such a small tank - being highly active swimmers, they need a longer tank with plenty of space to move around.
To be honest there are very few species of fish that will be truly happy in such a small tank. In my tank I keep chili rasboras, which are about the smallest species of fish you can get - about 1.5 cm when fully grown. They are also not highly active swimmers. But they're not often seen in fish shops. An alternative is the very similar Phoenix rasbora. At a push you could keep half a dozen neon tetras, but even they're not really ideal for such a small tank.
The fish you have, spotted barbs, are a terrible choice for a small tank. They grow to 10cm or more, and require lots of swimming space. If you can't go for a bigger tank, then you really must swap them for something more suitable.
Also, most of the fish you've tried so far are shoaling fish, which will suffer stress if kept in ones or twos. It is probably the reason why your danios became aggressive. Stress is yet another thing that will weaken fish and leave them more open to disease. Most of these fish need to be kept in groups of at least half a dozen at a minimum.
Now that you have converted to a heated tank at 26°C, you could keep a male Siamese Fighter (Betta splendens), but only one (he will be quite happy on his own, and absolutely must not be kept with other male fighters), and don't keep him with the barbs or they'll rip his fins to pieces. You could possibly keep 2 females with him - you need more than one because the males tend to be quite aggressive towards the females, but your tank isn't big enough for any more than that. And with a male fighter and two females, that's about the maximum fish load I'd recommend for a novice in such a small tank.
But before doing anything else, you need to do 50% water changes every other day until your ammonia and nitrite readings stay nailed at zero. Get rid of the barbs because they're hopelessly unsuitable, and choose something more suitable. Then add the fish gradually.
Edited by Dr Mike Oxgreen on Friday 29th July 17:46
solo2 said:
This is beginning to get way too complicated for me and teen Solo2!
[Sigh]I get depressed at how frequently I have to say this on this forum: keeping tropical fish is not simply a matter of filling a tank with water and throwing some fish in. You have to understand some of the biochemistry of what's going on, because you are effectively providing the fish with a life-support system.
Also, I despair at the terrible "advice" some aquatic shops provide customers with. They shouldn't have sold you such a small tank without warning you how difficult it is to keep such a tank biologically and chemically stable. They definitely shouldn't have sold you any of the fish you've mentioned for such a small tank.
You haven't mentioned filtration. What filter do you have? Please tell us you're not trying to run this tank without a filter?!
Another thing you could consider keeping, although I would wait until your tank is at least a couple of months old, is cherry shrimps. They're available in a number of colour morphs (I keep blue ones, and my population also has a large proportion that are clear with black markings). As the name suggests, they're commonly available as a bright red form.
You can only keep cherry shrimps with small fish whose mouths aren't big enough to eat them. Opinion is divided on whether Siamese Fighters will eat them; I don't know personally.
The bioload of these small shrimps is quite small, so even a small tank can happily support quite a large number. Christ only knows how many I've got in my 25 litre tank - possibly between 100 to 200, if you include the almost invisible babies. Yes, they breed. And breed. And breed. I frequently see yet more barely-visible babies, and yet another female carrying eggs between her legs. Depending on what fish you keep, they might eat some of the babies and keep their numbers in check, although my chili rasboras don't seem to eat even the babies. I reckon Siamese Fighters would eat baby shrimps, but some will make it to adulthood and then they'd probably be safe.
You can only keep cherry shrimps with small fish whose mouths aren't big enough to eat them. Opinion is divided on whether Siamese Fighters will eat them; I don't know personally.
The bioload of these small shrimps is quite small, so even a small tank can happily support quite a large number. Christ only knows how many I've got in my 25 litre tank - possibly between 100 to 200, if you include the almost invisible babies. Yes, they breed. And breed. And breed. I frequently see yet more barely-visible babies, and yet another female carrying eggs between her legs. Depending on what fish you keep, they might eat some of the babies and keep their numbers in check, although my chili rasboras don't seem to eat even the babies. I reckon Siamese Fighters would eat baby shrimps, but some will make it to adulthood and then they'd probably be safe.
solo2 said:
They appear to have always and still are swimming around happily enough but I am concerned that they have not eaten the flaked food I put in there a day ago.
Only just noticed this.If you put food into a tank and the fish don't eat it within a few minutes, then the food should be removed. Uneaten food will start to decompose, and will add to the ammonia in your water. Flake food floating on the surface can be removed with a net.
The fish will start to eat once they're feeling better, which should happen once your water quality is sorted out. Fish can survive for many days without food, so don't be tempted to keep adding food that goes uneaten - it will make your ammonia problem much worse.
Perhaps it's worth giving you a quick primer on all this ammonia/nitrite/nitrate stuff. Fish excrete ammonia as a bodily waste product through their gills. Ammonia is also produced when organic matter is broken down by naturally occurring bacteria in your tank. Ammonia (and its other form, Ammonium) is very highly toxic to fish, even in small quantities, so it needs to be zero. Once your tank starts to mature, bacteria start converting ammonia into nitrite, which is still very toxic to fish but not as bad as ammonia. Then, once your tank has matured further, different bacteria convert nitrite into nitrate, which is very much less toxic to fish. Fish can tolerate quite high levels of nitrate (even up to 100mg/litre if they're acclimatised to it) and there is probably 20-30mg/litre in your tap water. The lower the level of nitrate the better for the long-term health of your fish, although your plants will need some (but a level of 10mg/litre is plenty to keep your plants happy).
Once a tank is fully mature, the bacterial population should convert the ammonia and nitrite so quickly that you should always get zero on your tests. The fact that you've got some ammonia and some nitrite means your tank is not yet mature enough to quickly convert waste products into nitrate, but the presence of nitrite indicates that your tank has started the process of maturing - the first colony of bacteria are starting to convert ammonia to nitrite, but they need to build up their numbers and work faster. Your 20mg/litre reading of nitrate is almost certainly the background level from your tap water (did you say you're in Surrey? That's what I measure in my Woking water). So you don't yet have the second population of bacteria to convert nitrite to nitrate, but they'll get going shortly. Once that happens you'll start to see nitrate rise, which is quite normal.
Edited by Dr Mike Oxgreen on Saturday 30th July 12:09
We rehomes as I said the Danio's
Of the four remaining 3 unfortunately died and we cannot see a reason as when the water has been tested it's always been within the readings it needs to be. I've done frequent water changes always treating the water but I think at the end of the day the three that died probably did because they went from a warm tank in the shop to our colder one and then it was heated all within the space of a week.
The one remaining speckled one is ding very well and is swimming around a lot. he's not eating much but at last he is eating and one fish won't eat much anyway!
thank you for all your advice, all of it taken on board and teen solo2 has learnt a valuable lesson. A new considerably larger tank is being acquired and will be allowed to mature before the remaining fish is moved
Of the four remaining 3 unfortunately died and we cannot see a reason as when the water has been tested it's always been within the readings it needs to be. I've done frequent water changes always treating the water but I think at the end of the day the three that died probably did because they went from a warm tank in the shop to our colder one and then it was heated all within the space of a week.
The one remaining speckled one is ding very well and is swimming around a lot. he's not eating much but at last he is eating and one fish won't eat much anyway!
thank you for all your advice, all of it taken on board and teen solo2 has learnt a valuable lesson. A new considerably larger tank is being acquired and will be allowed to mature before the remaining fish is moved
Just restarting my community tank. Came back from a 16 day trip to find that my feeder had worked perfectly, but unfortunately the impeller in the filter had quit. The phrase fish soup was appropriate and the stench was unreal.
But, amazingly, I had one cory and a bunch of baby / juvenile guppies left barely alive. The cory was upside down in the plants but when I went to remove him, he wiggled off slowly. Even the snails had died it was that bad! All other fish and shrimps turned to powder as I tried to remove them. Never seen such a mess.
So. A massive clear out, all plants removed, rocks, decor and gravel cleaned and huge water changes for 2 days. Took a spare filter out of tank 2 (bought for the trip because I thought its main filter was iffy - ironic) to start the bio and tested the water on day 3. 1ppm ammonia... no nitrogen cycle anywhere to be seen. Out with the safe start and remaining fish back in.
All good now. Fish look surprisingly healthy (actually very normal) given the long term damage that such a protracted level of polluting could do to them. Readings are spot on so will gradually start on a replant and slow restock. I Lost:
5 cardinals
4 amano shrimps
2 mosaic cories
2 Parent guppies
A billion snails
All plants and moss balls
Really felt sorry for them. Must have been a horrible way to go.
But, amazingly, I had one cory and a bunch of baby / juvenile guppies left barely alive. The cory was upside down in the plants but when I went to remove him, he wiggled off slowly. Even the snails had died it was that bad! All other fish and shrimps turned to powder as I tried to remove them. Never seen such a mess.
So. A massive clear out, all plants removed, rocks, decor and gravel cleaned and huge water changes for 2 days. Took a spare filter out of tank 2 (bought for the trip because I thought its main filter was iffy - ironic) to start the bio and tested the water on day 3. 1ppm ammonia... no nitrogen cycle anywhere to be seen. Out with the safe start and remaining fish back in.
All good now. Fish look surprisingly healthy (actually very normal) given the long term damage that such a protracted level of polluting could do to them. Readings are spot on so will gradually start on a replant and slow restock. I Lost:
5 cardinals
4 amano shrimps
2 mosaic cories
2 Parent guppies
A billion snails
All plants and moss balls
Really felt sorry for them. Must have been a horrible way to go.
ked up the CO2 dosing on a planted tank and gassed everything. solo2 said:
A new considerably larger tank is being acquired and will be allowed to mature before the remaining fish is moved
You won't regret going for a larger tank - it'll be easier to keep balanced, and your speckled barb will be much happier with more room.I don't think you've mentioned what filtration you have, but you could speed up the maturing process of the new tank by transferring some of the filter media from your existing tank's filter into the filter of the new tank. This will 'seed' the new filter with a small bacterial colony, which will then take less time to reach the numbers required for the new tank. Even just transferring some of the gravel (without washing it) or some of the plants will be beneficial to the new tank (especially plastic plants which will have an invisible bacterial 'slime' on their surfaces).
Best of luck with the new set-up!
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