The importance of knowing when your dog isn't right
Discussion
We have two Dobermann's, a UK male and an Imported female. They are very different creatures. He's alert the whole time, very intelligent and extremely active and loves to work (Shutzhund / IPO). He's now 4 years old. She is VERY chilled, loves to lay in the sun and doesn't care what's going on around her as long as she can lay in the middle of it. She is 2 years old.
Of late, she's been wetting her bed and seems oblivious to it. We did wonder if it was incontinence brought on by being speyed at 11 months old due to an aggressive case of pyometra. Other than us getting a whole load of bedding and a constant stream of washing, she was pretty much herself. She became a little constipated and we also noticed that she seemed to be panting quite a bit. She loves to sit in the sun or in front of the fire, so only really pants after she's been running, just heat doesn't seem to bother her too much.
This was all relayed to the vet who then prescribed a drug which my partner (who is a nurse) disagreed with. The vet said the panting was probably due to the heat as was her elevated body temperature. Again, my partner disagreed and suggested this symptoms were consistent of an infection. The vet didn't investigate further.
She became lethargic, the peeing more frequent and we noticed her head bobbing slightly (small seizures) so took her straight back. Our regular vet was there. He didn't like what he saw so did bloods immediately. 'ALP' is a protein found in body tissue, but the liver, Bile Ducts and bone have higher amounts, so if high levels of ALP are found then you're starting to gather useful information. A 'normal' range is 12.00 to 83.00. Our pup's was 1200. ALT, an enzyme created in the liver had a reading of 992 but should be in a similar range to that of ALP. Her blood platelets were VERY low also. This was on a Friday and was referred to a specialist the following week. We complained and said it wouldn't wait, the head bobbing was getting worse, she hadn't eaten anything in days and her legs gave way when she did try and move.
We went to the consultation on the Wednesday and she had a seizure in the room and pee'd everywhere, dark brown and again, unaware she had done it. The vet took her away immediately for ultrasounds, a CT scan and then on for Liver Biopsy.
The issue we had is due to her failing liver, any anaesthetic would kill her as he liver was already very bad and would be put under more stress. If the liver issue was due to an infection, the biopsy could allow it to spread and would then kill her. As her platelets were so low, she could bleed to death. Literally everything was against her.
The scan showed no signs of tumours, everything 'looked' normal so we were asked if we wanted to continue as her chances of survival were very low. As she had no chance of survival without treatment, we carried on.
We were allowed to see her on the Friday evening. She was still out cold from the anaesthetic but were told if she can make it through the night then she has a slightly better chance. Against the odds, she was awake in the morning. As she was so weak due to not eating for the best part of a week, they fitter a PEG (percutaneous endoscopic gastrostomy) tube going straight in to her stomach. On Saturday evening she ate some food (the normal way). On Sunday she ate her whole inner, was seemingly hungry and we were allowed to take her for a walk around the ground. Despite everything being against her, she seemed to be on the mend and was allowed to come home on the Tuesday night.
We had to clean the peg three times a day and administer a whole load of drugs including lactulose and Keppra to help with the seizures, antibiotics and all sorts. The biopsy results showed it was a bacterial infection which was good because the antibiotics were working so kept at it. Being a Dobermann our initial thoughts were Hepatitis or Copper-associated chronic hepatitis so weren't too far off. ALL of this was mentioned in our initial consultation with the first vet who claimed the increased body temp was because of it being a hot day!
A peg has to stay in for 10 days for it to be able to heal properly so this Friday gone, Friday 19th August, she went in to the regular vet to have the peg removed. It was confirmed the last bloods done did infact show she was on the mend. When the vet took the peg out, some grey water escaped. My partner was concern as she has regularly fit and removed these from humans so knows what the risks are.
The dog was taken home and within 20 minutes, her eyes rolled back, she collapsed and was then rushed back to the specialists who had been dealing with her. As suspected, it was septic peritonitis due to stomach bacteria getting in to the abdomen wall. Yet again she had emergency surgery and was doing ok until at around 4am on the Saturday morning she had a cardiac arrest and could not be resuscitated.
We are of course devastated by her loss. She was a beautiful dog without an ounce of aggression in her. What makes this particularly painful is that she has been through much, we already thought we had lost her and were literally euphoric when she made a recovery. We won't know what caused the cardiac arrest or whether this wouldn't have happened if she hadn't had the last operation for septic peritonitis. For her to go through all this, pull through and die due to a complication with a peg feeding tube is a huge slap in the face and it's just not fair.
We are also very angry with our first vet. While my partner is a human nurse and not a vet, we're not that different, she suggested numerous times this was symptomatic with a liver issue, mentioned hepatitis etc, said the raised temperature could be due to an infection but it all fell on deaf ears.
If you know your dog well, you don't need to be a vet to figure out it isn't itself. Don't be afraid to ask to get blood work done especially on a dog that doesn't typically show signs of pain as poking it in the side won't tell you if the dog is in discomfort or not.
Of late, she's been wetting her bed and seems oblivious to it. We did wonder if it was incontinence brought on by being speyed at 11 months old due to an aggressive case of pyometra. Other than us getting a whole load of bedding and a constant stream of washing, she was pretty much herself. She became a little constipated and we also noticed that she seemed to be panting quite a bit. She loves to sit in the sun or in front of the fire, so only really pants after she's been running, just heat doesn't seem to bother her too much.
This was all relayed to the vet who then prescribed a drug which my partner (who is a nurse) disagreed with. The vet said the panting was probably due to the heat as was her elevated body temperature. Again, my partner disagreed and suggested this symptoms were consistent of an infection. The vet didn't investigate further.
She became lethargic, the peeing more frequent and we noticed her head bobbing slightly (small seizures) so took her straight back. Our regular vet was there. He didn't like what he saw so did bloods immediately. 'ALP' is a protein found in body tissue, but the liver, Bile Ducts and bone have higher amounts, so if high levels of ALP are found then you're starting to gather useful information. A 'normal' range is 12.00 to 83.00. Our pup's was 1200. ALT, an enzyme created in the liver had a reading of 992 but should be in a similar range to that of ALP. Her blood platelets were VERY low also. This was on a Friday and was referred to a specialist the following week. We complained and said it wouldn't wait, the head bobbing was getting worse, she hadn't eaten anything in days and her legs gave way when she did try and move.
We went to the consultation on the Wednesday and she had a seizure in the room and pee'd everywhere, dark brown and again, unaware she had done it. The vet took her away immediately for ultrasounds, a CT scan and then on for Liver Biopsy.
The issue we had is due to her failing liver, any anaesthetic would kill her as he liver was already very bad and would be put under more stress. If the liver issue was due to an infection, the biopsy could allow it to spread and would then kill her. As her platelets were so low, she could bleed to death. Literally everything was against her.
The scan showed no signs of tumours, everything 'looked' normal so we were asked if we wanted to continue as her chances of survival were very low. As she had no chance of survival without treatment, we carried on.
We were allowed to see her on the Friday evening. She was still out cold from the anaesthetic but were told if she can make it through the night then she has a slightly better chance. Against the odds, she was awake in the morning. As she was so weak due to not eating for the best part of a week, they fitter a PEG (percutaneous endoscopic gastrostomy) tube going straight in to her stomach. On Saturday evening she ate some food (the normal way). On Sunday she ate her whole inner, was seemingly hungry and we were allowed to take her for a walk around the ground. Despite everything being against her, she seemed to be on the mend and was allowed to come home on the Tuesday night.
We had to clean the peg three times a day and administer a whole load of drugs including lactulose and Keppra to help with the seizures, antibiotics and all sorts. The biopsy results showed it was a bacterial infection which was good because the antibiotics were working so kept at it. Being a Dobermann our initial thoughts were Hepatitis or Copper-associated chronic hepatitis so weren't too far off. ALL of this was mentioned in our initial consultation with the first vet who claimed the increased body temp was because of it being a hot day!
A peg has to stay in for 10 days for it to be able to heal properly so this Friday gone, Friday 19th August, she went in to the regular vet to have the peg removed. It was confirmed the last bloods done did infact show she was on the mend. When the vet took the peg out, some grey water escaped. My partner was concern as she has regularly fit and removed these from humans so knows what the risks are.
The dog was taken home and within 20 minutes, her eyes rolled back, she collapsed and was then rushed back to the specialists who had been dealing with her. As suspected, it was septic peritonitis due to stomach bacteria getting in to the abdomen wall. Yet again she had emergency surgery and was doing ok until at around 4am on the Saturday morning she had a cardiac arrest and could not be resuscitated.
We are of course devastated by her loss. She was a beautiful dog without an ounce of aggression in her. What makes this particularly painful is that she has been through much, we already thought we had lost her and were literally euphoric when she made a recovery. We won't know what caused the cardiac arrest or whether this wouldn't have happened if she hadn't had the last operation for septic peritonitis. For her to go through all this, pull through and die due to a complication with a peg feeding tube is a huge slap in the face and it's just not fair.
We are also very angry with our first vet. While my partner is a human nurse and not a vet, we're not that different, she suggested numerous times this was symptomatic with a liver issue, mentioned hepatitis etc, said the raised temperature could be due to an infection but it all fell on deaf ears.
If you know your dog well, you don't need to be a vet to figure out it isn't itself. Don't be afraid to ask to get blood work done especially on a dog that doesn't typically show signs of pain as poking it in the side won't tell you if the dog is in discomfort or not.
Devastating, all I can say is septic peritonitis is so very serious that survival from it no matter what you do is extremely low.
Sadly the first vet wasn't particularly pro active but this is not a condition we come across very often at all, very rare so the Vet went for the more likely scenarios sadly. Listening to an owner, especially an informed one is vital though and should never be pushed aside.
I doubt this is of any comfort but I can't help think that even if the first vet had been more pro active it would still have been a battle to save her
I am so very very sorry for your loss
Sadly the first vet wasn't particularly pro active but this is not a condition we come across very often at all, very rare so the Vet went for the more likely scenarios sadly. Listening to an owner, especially an informed one is vital though and should never be pushed aside.
I doubt this is of any comfort but I can't help think that even if the first vet had been more pro active it would still have been a battle to save her
I am so very very sorry for your loss
Edited by bexVN on Monday 22 August 22:07
Genuinely gutted by your post.
Such a true point that you need to be prepared to disagree with your vet. You know your dog, they don't. That comes from my sister who runs a large group of practices. I have 2 bull terriers and neither are dogs that will show any kind of pain or discomfort.
I've lost count of the amount of blood work that Lou has had based on her not being "right" for a couple of days. It gives me peace of mind and makes my life happier if I know my dogs are ok and not suffering inside. This all stems from when I was young and we had a b
h English bull terrier who was pretty much bullet proof - she had an underlying intestinal problem and the first thing we knew about it was when she collapsed. Bets opened her up and found that she'd basically rotted from the inside out. No outward signs - running round the park the day before.
That stayed with me and I know my dogs and keep a close eye on both. That's why your post gutted me. No one wants to lose a pet, especially when the one person who is meant to help doesn't know what they're doing.
Such a true point that you need to be prepared to disagree with your vet. You know your dog, they don't. That comes from my sister who runs a large group of practices. I have 2 bull terriers and neither are dogs that will show any kind of pain or discomfort.
I've lost count of the amount of blood work that Lou has had based on her not being "right" for a couple of days. It gives me peace of mind and makes my life happier if I know my dogs are ok and not suffering inside. This all stems from when I was young and we had a b
h English bull terrier who was pretty much bullet proof - she had an underlying intestinal problem and the first thing we knew about it was when she collapsed. Bets opened her up and found that she'd basically rotted from the inside out. No outward signs - running round the park the day before. That stayed with me and I know my dogs and keep a close eye on both. That's why your post gutted me. No one wants to lose a pet, especially when the one person who is meant to help doesn't know what they're doing.
moorx said:
I'm really sorry to hear this, it does sound as though the vet should have listened to your partner.
As you say, very often our own 'gut instincts' (even when not medically qualified) are right.
Thank you. It really hurts like hell right now but things will get easier. You're right, certainly for me, gut instinct is all I have and am usually right. On this occasion there were enough signs to show there were deeper issues with her so do feel a bit let down by the (new) vet at our regular place.As you say, very often our own 'gut instincts' (even when not medically qualified) are right.
It took balls (with some anger) to write it. Terribly sad. Very sorry to hear this.
We lost a fairly young (8 year old) Rottie/Staffie cross earlier this year. Not as a result of poor veterinary care, or really even an easily perceptible change - he'd got lung cancer and gradually slowed. Probably very little could have been done, even if diagnosed early. In your case though, some of the veterinary care seemed lax at best.
We lost a fairly young (8 year old) Rottie/Staffie cross earlier this year. Not as a result of poor veterinary care, or really even an easily perceptible change - he'd got lung cancer and gradually slowed. Probably very little could have been done, even if diagnosed early. In your case though, some of the veterinary care seemed lax at best.
bexVN said:
Devastating, all I can say is septic peritonitis is so very serious that survival from it no matter what you do is extremely low.
Sadly the first vet wasn't particularly pro active but this is not a condition we come across very often at all, very rare so the Vet went for the more likely scenarios sadly. Listening to an owner, especially an informed one is vital though and should never be pushed aside.
I doubt this is of any comfort but I can't help think that even if the first vet had been more pro active it would still have been a battle to save her
I am so very very sorry for your loss
Thank you Bex. Sadly the first vet wasn't particularly pro active but this is not a condition we come across very often at all, very rare so the Vet went for the more likely scenarios sadly. Listening to an owner, especially an informed one is vital though and should never be pushed aside.
I doubt this is of any comfort but I can't help think that even if the first vet had been more pro active it would still have been a battle to save her
I am so very very sorry for your loss
Edited by bexVN on Monday 22 August 22:07
I think our biggest grievance with this is that when the specialists (Anderson Moores) took her in, they were honest about her condition and were clear with us that her chances were not brilliant. To seemingly have won her battle against impossible odds only to essentially be taken out by a device that was there to aid her recovery feels really bad.
You are of course right, we don't know what the outcome would have been if she'd been seen to earlier. The bacterial infection in her liver was from bacteria from her own body, not introduced externally. She had a very aggressive case of pyometra when she was under a year old, so did feel a little bit like her own body was out to get her! If it wasn't this, would it be something else.
We've stopped looking for answers, we just won't know and it won't help anybody. Anderson Moores were unable to say if the cardiac arrest she suffered after the surgery would have happened or not had she not had the anaesthetic and surgery, this may have happened anyway.
We aren't blaming the first vet as such, we just feel let down that we (my partner) guided her through the issues, had a comprehensive diary of all the times she'd been fed, when she'd wee'd etc and took samples of everything with her to the appointment and was kind of dismissed. When we returned a couple of days later, the normal vet we see did bloods straight away and set up the referral.
Autopilot said:
Don't be afraid to ask to get blood work done especially on a dog that doesn't typically show signs of pain as poking it in the side won't tell you if the dog is in discomfort or not.
Agreed.I discovered a skin lesion on my cat. Took to vets and vet said due so size, shape and colour it's nothing to worry about. Suggested bloods and biopsy but not really essential.
Came back as cancer, vet was stunned and ever so surprised. Caught early enough prognosis is good but I shudder when I think I could have taken advice and left it.
Cat gets a regular rough petting now to check for further growths!
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