Lameness - with a twist
Discussion
Otis, our 2.5 year old male GSD, is usually a happy healthy fit active dog.
Yesterday, afternoon he kept vomiting white foam (about 12 times in an hour or so) and the last two vomits contained reddish-brown streaks, so I took him to the emergency vet. Long story short, they gave him an anti-emetic, kept him in overnight on fluids, ran bloods, and found nothing wrong. This morning he was bright and fit so they sent him home. They're a very good, thorough vet practice and I have every faith in them.
When I collected him, he happily jumped up into the back of my Defender, which is quite high, with no hesitation at all - almost before I could stop him.
He's been very quiet all day, which we can accept, although he's been eating chicken/fish/rice (little & often) and has always wanted it, and more. He's been for a few short walks, which he was fine with. He's a little subdued, but alert and attentive.
Earlier this evening, we noticed that he was having trouble getting up. Seems OK once he's up although he's a little lame on his rear left leg. He's not complaining or showing any sign of pain. He does seem a little weak, probably from whatever gastric issue has caused this (he's topped being sick but he's loose at the other end).
Now strangely enough, about a year ago, he also spent a night in the vets, for a different reason (we suspected he might have ingested antifreeze, the vet took it very seriously and treated him in case he had, he's been fine ever since). But here's the thing; last time he came out of a night in the vets, he was also lame, so much so that we took him back in. They examined him carefully and couldn't find anything wrong, and he recovered after another day or so and has been fine ever since, until tonight. He's usually very active indeed, he spends a lot of time with other dogs and they run & run for ages, so his usual fitness is good.
We could take him back in, and will if it doesn't pass soon, but I just wanted to ask what anyone thinks here. It's really odd that it's happened twice, both times after a night in the vet, and never before or at any other time. Could it be that because he spent the night in one position, in the cage, that's what has caused it? We've not had him hip scored, because we don't plan to breed from him, but his parents' scores were something like 6 and 9, so, very low, so we've never been overly concerned about hips/dysplasia etc, and he's quite young for any arthritic issues.
I guess I'm just looking for a bit of reassurance without putting him through another vet visit!
Yesterday, afternoon he kept vomiting white foam (about 12 times in an hour or so) and the last two vomits contained reddish-brown streaks, so I took him to the emergency vet. Long story short, they gave him an anti-emetic, kept him in overnight on fluids, ran bloods, and found nothing wrong. This morning he was bright and fit so they sent him home. They're a very good, thorough vet practice and I have every faith in them.
When I collected him, he happily jumped up into the back of my Defender, which is quite high, with no hesitation at all - almost before I could stop him.
He's been very quiet all day, which we can accept, although he's been eating chicken/fish/rice (little & often) and has always wanted it, and more. He's been for a few short walks, which he was fine with. He's a little subdued, but alert and attentive.
Earlier this evening, we noticed that he was having trouble getting up. Seems OK once he's up although he's a little lame on his rear left leg. He's not complaining or showing any sign of pain. He does seem a little weak, probably from whatever gastric issue has caused this (he's topped being sick but he's loose at the other end).
Now strangely enough, about a year ago, he also spent a night in the vets, for a different reason (we suspected he might have ingested antifreeze, the vet took it very seriously and treated him in case he had, he's been fine ever since). But here's the thing; last time he came out of a night in the vets, he was also lame, so much so that we took him back in. They examined him carefully and couldn't find anything wrong, and he recovered after another day or so and has been fine ever since, until tonight. He's usually very active indeed, he spends a lot of time with other dogs and they run & run for ages, so his usual fitness is good.
We could take him back in, and will if it doesn't pass soon, but I just wanted to ask what anyone thinks here. It's really odd that it's happened twice, both times after a night in the vet, and never before or at any other time. Could it be that because he spent the night in one position, in the cage, that's what has caused it? We've not had him hip scored, because we don't plan to breed from him, but his parents' scores were something like 6 and 9, so, very low, so we've never been overly concerned about hips/dysplasia etc, and he's quite young for any arthritic issues.
I guess I'm just looking for a bit of reassurance without putting him through another vet visit!
Unless his kennel was too small or not enough bedding used, it would seem odd to happen twice.
However if he had had minimum movement for a while then stretched out to jump in a car he could have pulled a muscle but again both times odd.
Some drugs are given I/m and they can be in a back leg muscle. Maybe this made him a bit sore? Still odd though!!
Hope he is 100% soon.
However if he had had minimum movement for a while then stretched out to jump in a car he could have pulled a muscle but again both times odd.
Some drugs are given I/m and they can be in a back leg muscle. Maybe this made him a bit sore? Still odd though!!
Hope he is 100% soon.
bexVN said:
Unless his kennel was too small or not enough bedding used, it would seem odd to happen twice.
However if he had had minimum movement for a while then stretched out to jump in a car he could have pulled a muscle but again both times odd.
Some drugs are given I/m and they can be in a back leg muscle. Maybe this made him a bit sore? Still odd though!!
Hope he is 100% soon.
Thanks Bex. Yes, we've wondered about kennel conditions. The only jab which I definitely know he had was sub-cutaneous (plus the bloods/drip on a front leg). Hadn't thought about the possibility of a muscle pull.However if he had had minimum movement for a while then stretched out to jump in a car he could have pulled a muscle but again both times odd.
Some drugs are given I/m and they can be in a back leg muscle. Maybe this made him a bit sore? Still odd though!!
Hope he is 100% soon.
Middle of the night there was a horrendous howl which had us both running down the stairs. He had tried to stand up and something obviously hurt badly. I've never heard him howl before. However, this morning, he was standing at the bottom of the stairs to greet us, tail wagging like mad, he went outside and had his usual big morning stretch. He's still a bit stiff but definitely better. Really very odd. We'll speak to the vet later.
Thanks for your input Bex, much appreciated, as always!
If it becomes ongoing he could benefit from a canine physiotherapist assessing him. I think they can be really useful for this type of thing. The trigger is a bit of a mystery I realise and it would be good to know why but just worth bearing a physio for him in mind (they are great at being able to assess overall 'balance' of a dog, eg using one muscle over another etc)
Edited by bexVN on Tuesday 22 November 20:48
Not much more I can add to Bex's observations, I can't quite see any connection apart from IM injections or sleeping to scrunched up in a kennel.....just doesn't seem to add up. Interesting to hear if physio gives any obs, please let us know. Hope pooch doesn't have any more issues like this.
Hi, I was just about to post an update.
MrsC works p/t with someone who does doggy day care, where they have all the dogs loose in a field. Our two normally go with her and play with the other dogs. This morning she was 50/50 on whether to take Otis or not, but decided that he'd be better with her where, even if he stayed in the car (Landie, plenty of room to spread out), at least she could keep an eye on him.
So, this morning, she opened the front door, opened the Landie, which has a fairly high lip on the rear compartment……and Otis promptly leapt in as he usually does, as if nothing was wrong. She kept him close in the field and didn't let him pelt round like he normally does, but he was fine. When I got home this evening he was waiting for me at the door, waggy and happy. And then, the acid test - I went down the garden to the shed, and when I do this, it's compulsory (for him!) that he comes with me, has a look at what I'm doing, then brings me a ball to throw. So I did, and he charge off across the garden just like usual.
So, he's right as rain again and neither we, nor our vet, nor you chaps, have any real idea why. In terms of meds, he had Cerenia solution in the scruff of his neck on Sunday, and whilst in the vets he had:
Aqupharm - IV
Ranitidine - IV
"Additional IV Fluids" (whatever those were)
Bloods taken, front leg
additional Aqupharm
and then Ranitidine tablets, which he's still on.
Something clearly hurt him significantly during last night, I've never heard him (or any of my other dogs for that matter) let out such a hideous howl of pain. I know GSDs can be utter wimps when it comes to pain, but still!
So he seems fine again now. It's just really odd, and doubly so that both times he's had a night in hospital, he's come out like this. Hopefully he'll not end up there again but if he does we'll need to explain all of this to them beforehand.
Thanks for the input, advice, and support, I do really think this sub-board is one of the best on PH for this type of thing.
MrsC works p/t with someone who does doggy day care, where they have all the dogs loose in a field. Our two normally go with her and play with the other dogs. This morning she was 50/50 on whether to take Otis or not, but decided that he'd be better with her where, even if he stayed in the car (Landie, plenty of room to spread out), at least she could keep an eye on him.
So, this morning, she opened the front door, opened the Landie, which has a fairly high lip on the rear compartment……and Otis promptly leapt in as he usually does, as if nothing was wrong. She kept him close in the field and didn't let him pelt round like he normally does, but he was fine. When I got home this evening he was waiting for me at the door, waggy and happy. And then, the acid test - I went down the garden to the shed, and when I do this, it's compulsory (for him!) that he comes with me, has a look at what I'm doing, then brings me a ball to throw. So I did, and he charge off across the garden just like usual.
So, he's right as rain again and neither we, nor our vet, nor you chaps, have any real idea why. In terms of meds, he had Cerenia solution in the scruff of his neck on Sunday, and whilst in the vets he had:
Aqupharm - IV
Ranitidine - IV
"Additional IV Fluids" (whatever those were)
Bloods taken, front leg
additional Aqupharm
and then Ranitidine tablets, which he's still on.
Something clearly hurt him significantly during last night, I've never heard him (or any of my other dogs for that matter) let out such a hideous howl of pain. I know GSDs can be utter wimps when it comes to pain, but still!
So he seems fine again now. It's just really odd, and doubly so that both times he's had a night in hospital, he's come out like this. Hopefully he'll not end up there again but if he does we'll need to explain all of this to them beforehand.
Thanks for the input, advice, and support, I do really think this sub-board is one of the best on PH for this type of thing.
It could be that he has tweaked something that takes a while to cause soreness.....bit like a lot of sporting injuries. My rott has had a lot of elbow arthritis probs and 4 weeks post surgery was approx 1/10th lamer than before surgery, but on the day of orthopod reexamination went from 4/10 lame walking into waiting room to 10/10 lame on seeing orthopod. I could not believe it nor could surgeon, was an awful day, took 2-3 weeks to resolve. Still don't know what caused it but had to be a silly twinge just getting out of car to go into see nasty surgeon person. Life is strange sometimes
Well, he seems right as rain now, if a little loose still, but that's not entirely unusual for him anyway. Tried to get a "look, my legs are OK!" picture but he wouldn't hold the pose, so here's one from earlier in the year. The vet on Sunday was very taken with him, he said, in his finest Italian accent, "what a beautiful GSD, I don't often see beautiful GSDs" 
Just on your first post, and it's probably unrelated but it seems appropriate to share.
Our GSD/Rottie cross had troubles getting up from long lie down, we tried bedding, but it got rapidly worse and he was lame on one leg, then increasingly the other. It would recover slightly but then at it's worst you would hear an audible "clicking" on walks.
Obviously we went to the vets from the offset, paid for X-rays and tests, but the vet suspected hip dysplasia combined with knee arthritis, they said we should wait and see. Unconvinced we went to a specialist who later confirmed it was in fact a cruiciate tear, the audible clicking was actually his sheared cartilage being crushed in the joint (our dog is unusually resilient). I struggle with how two such contrasting conclusions were reached.
As I say it's probably not, but I know now from the specialists cruciate failure it is very common, especially in larger dogs, and it started the same way but experience tells me not all vets will spot it. It's also profoundly repairable if you have the coin, and the results are nothing short of incredible.
(Incidentally our dog is recovering well after both legs being repaired with TPLO surgery. He also doesn't have significant hip dysplasia despite the apparent misdiagnosis, so worth bearing in mind a second opinion is often required).
Anyway more just something to be mindful of if you're not aware.
Our GSD/Rottie cross had troubles getting up from long lie down, we tried bedding, but it got rapidly worse and he was lame on one leg, then increasingly the other. It would recover slightly but then at it's worst you would hear an audible "clicking" on walks.
Obviously we went to the vets from the offset, paid for X-rays and tests, but the vet suspected hip dysplasia combined with knee arthritis, they said we should wait and see. Unconvinced we went to a specialist who later confirmed it was in fact a cruiciate tear, the audible clicking was actually his sheared cartilage being crushed in the joint (our dog is unusually resilient). I struggle with how two such contrasting conclusions were reached.
As I say it's probably not, but I know now from the specialists cruciate failure it is very common, especially in larger dogs, and it started the same way but experience tells me not all vets will spot it. It's also profoundly repairable if you have the coin, and the results are nothing short of incredible.
(Incidentally our dog is recovering well after both legs being repaired with TPLO surgery. He also doesn't have significant hip dysplasia despite the apparent misdiagnosis, so worth bearing in mind a second opinion is often required).
Anyway more just something to be mindful of if you're not aware.
Prof Prolapse said:
Just on your first post, and it's probably unrelated but it seems appropriate to share.
Our GSD/Rottie cross had troubles getting up from long lie down, we tried bedding, but it got rapidly worse and he was lame on one leg, then increasingly the other. It would recover slightly but then at it's worst you would hear an audible "clicking" on walks.
Obviously we went to the vets from the offset, paid for X-rays and tests, but the vet suspected hip dysplasia combined with knee arthritis, they said we should wait and see. Unconvinced we went to a specialist who later confirmed it was in fact a cruiciate tear, the audible clicking was actually his sheared cartilage being crushed in the joint (our dog is unusually resilient). I struggle with how two such contrasting conclusions were reached.
As I say it's probably not, but I know now from the specialists cruciate failure it is very common, especially in larger dogs, and it started the same way but experience tells me not all vets will spot it. It's also profoundly repairable if you have the coin, and the results are nothing short of incredible.
(Incidentally our dog is recovering well after both legs being repaired with TPLO surgery. He also doesn't have significant hip dysplasia despite the apparent misdiagnosis, so worth bearing in mind a second opinion is often required).
Anyway more just something to be mindful of if you're not aware.
Wow, thanks v much, that hadn't crossed my mind. He's fit and active again now and running flat out when he feels like it (usually for a ball or a squirrel!). Would he be able to do that if he had cruciate issues?Our GSD/Rottie cross had troubles getting up from long lie down, we tried bedding, but it got rapidly worse and he was lame on one leg, then increasingly the other. It would recover slightly but then at it's worst you would hear an audible "clicking" on walks.
Obviously we went to the vets from the offset, paid for X-rays and tests, but the vet suspected hip dysplasia combined with knee arthritis, they said we should wait and see. Unconvinced we went to a specialist who later confirmed it was in fact a cruiciate tear, the audible clicking was actually his sheared cartilage being crushed in the joint (our dog is unusually resilient). I struggle with how two such contrasting conclusions were reached.
As I say it's probably not, but I know now from the specialists cruciate failure it is very common, especially in larger dogs, and it started the same way but experience tells me not all vets will spot it. It's also profoundly repairable if you have the coin, and the results are nothing short of incredible.
(Incidentally our dog is recovering well after both legs being repaired with TPLO surgery. He also doesn't have significant hip dysplasia despite the apparent misdiagnosis, so worth bearing in mind a second opinion is often required).
Anyway more just something to be mindful of if you're not aware.
No very unlikely or if he did he'd be lame afterwards.
You can reduce the risk of cruciate injury by keeping his weight in check, keeping his muscles strong and avoiding him jumping in the air for a ball or skidding and sudden turning for a ball.
You can reduce the risk of cruciate injury by keeping his weight in check, keeping his muscles strong and avoiding him jumping in the air for a ball or skidding and sudden turning for a ball.
Edited by bexVN on Monday 28th November 13:29
bexVN said:
No very unlikely or if he did he'd be lame afterwards.
You can reduce the risk of cruciate injury by keeping his weight in check, keeping his muscles strong and avoiding him jumping in the air for a ball or skidding and sudden turning for a ball.
I can only speak for our dog but lameness was intermittent until the cruciate had ruptured entirely, for one leg this was traumatic, the other gradual. We saw this happen in real time on the other leg post surgery.You can reduce the risk of cruciate injury by keeping his weight in check, keeping his muscles strong and avoiding him jumping in the air for a ball or skidding and sudden turning for a ball.
Edited by bexVN on Monday 28th November 13:29
I'm not sure I can agree with all of your advice you're saying either based on multiple conversations with the specialist and the papers he cited. The injuries aren't always caused by traumatic incidents, in our case it's extremely likely the cruciate itself is defective. There's already genetic components identified in some breeds, it's speculated similar exist in other breeds. But obviously a damaged joint is often "finished off" with some trauma.
Your advice may work for a avoiding an acute injury (although I've no idea how to train a dog not to jump, skid or turn suddenly!) but it will only delay the inevitable for a genetically predisposed dog, of which there are reportedly many.
Dogs obviously can't compensate for cruciate injuries by using surrounding muscles like humans can, but obviously I agree with keeping your dog fit and at the appropriate weight, which mine was before his decline. Frankly it's been a nightmare keeping the weight off and his training in check during his recovery and now rehabilitation.
Thanks for the info. His weight is good, in fact if anything he's a little under but he always has been no matter how much or how little he eats, and we had him as a pup. Appetite is usually good, and he'll happily nick the other dog's food if he gets a chance, but he's around 34kg which is fairly light for the breed. Vet has previously commented on how it's good to keep him like that.
He doesn't twist & turn much for balls as he usually catches them while they're still running in a straight line, but he does like to jump and catch high ones, will have to watch that.
He doesn't twist & turn much for balls as he usually catches them while they're still running in a straight line, but he does like to jump and catch high ones, will have to watch that.
I'm not sure it's small based on breed guidelines but 34kg is still enormous compared to most dogs!
I try and keep my dog lean as I can, but it's struggle and sadly he tends to yo-yo. He's about 40kg, he should be about 38kg reportedly so I'm feeling guilty at the moment but I can't beast him up and down the hills until the vet gives me the all clear (one week to go!).
I wouldn't worry too much about the cruciate thing though, it really is just for your information, there's not a great deal of evidence to show it's applicable to you. I'm not
I try and keep my dog lean as I can, but it's struggle and sadly he tends to yo-yo. He's about 40kg, he should be about 38kg reportedly so I'm feeling guilty at the moment but I can't beast him up and down the hills until the vet gives me the all clear (one week to go!).
I wouldn't worry too much about the cruciate thing though, it really is just for your information, there's not a great deal of evidence to show it's applicable to you. I'm not
Prof Prolapse said:
bexVN said:
No very unlikely or if he did he'd be lame afterwards.
You can reduce the risk of cruciate injury by keeping his weight in check, keeping his muscles strong and avoiding him jumping in the air for a ball or skidding and sudden turning for a ball.
I can only speak for our dog but lameness was intermittent until the cruciate had ruptured entirely, for one leg this was traumatic, the other gradual. We saw this happen in real time on the other leg post surgery.You can reduce the risk of cruciate injury by keeping his weight in check, keeping his muscles strong and avoiding him jumping in the air for a ball or skidding and sudden turning for a ball.
Edited by bexVN on Monday 28th November 13:29
I'm not sure I can agree with all of your advice you're saying either based on multiple conversations with the specialist and the papers he cited. The injuries aren't always caused by traumatic incidents, in our case it's extremely likely the cruciate itself is defective. There's already genetic components identified in some breeds, it's speculated similar exist in other breeds. But obviously a damaged joint is often "finished off" with some trauma.
Your advice may work for a avoiding an acute injury (although I've no idea how to train a dog not to jump, skid or turn suddenly!) but it will only delay the inevitable for a genetically predisposed dog, of which there are reportedly many.
Dogs obviously can't compensate for cruciate injuries by using surrounding muscles like humans can, but obviously I agree with keeping your dog fit and at the appropriate weight, which mine was before his decline. Frankly it's been a nightmare keeping the weight off and his training in check during his recovery and now rehabilitation.
So yes you are right in elaborating on my suggestions because I was offering a fairly basic (but relatively common) scenario, I have seen an awful lot of cruciate injuries in 26yrs!
It's not easy to predict a cruciate problem when there are no signs (breed disposition may make dx easier) but if lameness starts occurring after exercise then it is time to start investigating.
This was another reason I suggested a good canine physio as they can see/ feel/ detect very subtle changes in the dogs physiology.
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