Dogs on leads

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Autopilot

1,298 posts

183 months

Monday 9th January 2017
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oddman said:
I've never seen big dog/guard dog that can be controlled off lead. They're lovely dogs and I know most of them don't mean harm but the are fking scary to other walkers and dogs

The 'He only wants to play' BS doesn't cut it.

Mine stops on whistle and will recall 100% - because he has been bred and trained to cooperate and work with me.

We have had centuries of breeding dogs that are biddable. Very few people need a guard/carriage/fighting/ratting dog

Why in c21 people continue to choose dogs with stone age function/temperament is beyond me.
I have a large male Dobermann. He walks to heel on or off lead and is exceptional even with distraction. You could probably have a squirrel riding a cat run past, but if he's told to stay with me, he stays with me even if he does really want to bugger off!

I don't allow him to approach people or other dogs. He's called in to heel and he remains with me even if the annoying hyper-spaniel under no control is jumping all over him. He gets a bit grumpy but that's to be expected, he's now in work mode and some annoying dog is pestering him while he's been told to focus on me.

Obedience is one thing, control is another. I have both because I want dog walks to be fun and stress free. Dog walks would not be fun in the slightest if you have no idea whether your dog is going to come back or not.

Incidentally, the reason I have Dobermanns is because they are high energy, fun, a bit goofy sometimes and love nothing more than snuggling up or sitting in front of the fire. I don't think many breeds are as affectionate as a Dobermann.

BigLion

1,497 posts

98 months

Monday 9th January 2017
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I bet all the moaners about big dogs are over the age of 55 !

oddman

2,277 posts

251 months

Monday 9th January 2017
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Autopilot said:
I have a large male Dobermann. He walks to heel on or off lead and is exceptional even with distraction. You could probably have a squirrel riding a cat run past, but if he's told to stay with me, he stays with me even if he does really want to bugger off!

I don't allow him to approach people or other dogs. He's called in to heel and he remains with me even if the annoying hyper-spaniel under no control is jumping all over him. He gets a bit grumpy but that's to be expected, he's now in work mode and some annoying dog is pestering him while he's been told to focus on me.

Obedience is one thing, control is another. I have both because I want dog walks to be fun and stress free. Dog walks would not be fun in the slightest if you have no idea whether your dog is going to come back or not.

Incidentally, the reason I have Dobermanns is because they are high energy, fun, a bit goofy sometimes and love nothing more than snuggling up or sitting in front of the fire. I don't think many breeds are as affectionate as a Dobermann.
Respect- you have obviously put a lot of time and effort in.

The paradox is that a well trained/controlled dog gets more freedom and fun and the time and effort put in is a time saver because you have a dog you can take anywhere

I'm the one with a hyper spaniel but he is under control. I have to mediate his contact with other dogs. If those of us who work our dogs didn't have that degree of control a shoot day would be a riot.

ben5575

6,221 posts

220 months

Monday 9th January 2017
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oddman said:
The paradox is that a well trained/controlled dog gets more freedom and fun and the time and effort put in is a time saver because you have a dog you can take anywhere
Absolutely this. But it's a complicated point that a lot of people don't see or understand.

Same with kids as well biggrin

Autopilot

1,298 posts

183 months

Tuesday 10th January 2017
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oddman said:
Autopilot said:
I have a large male Dobermann. He walks to heel on or off lead and is exceptional even with distraction. You could probably have a squirrel riding a cat run past, but if he's told to stay with me, he stays with me even if he does really want to bugger off!

I don't allow him to approach people or other dogs. He's called in to heel and he remains with me even if the annoying hyper-spaniel under no control is jumping all over him. He gets a bit grumpy but that's to be expected, he's now in work mode and some annoying dog is pestering him while he's been told to focus on me.

Obedience is one thing, control is another. I have both because I want dog walks to be fun and stress free. Dog walks would not be fun in the slightest if you have no idea whether your dog is going to come back or not.

Incidentally, the reason I have Dobermanns is because they are high energy, fun, a bit goofy sometimes and love nothing more than snuggling up or sitting in front of the fire. I don't think many breeds are as affectionate as a Dobermann.
Respect- you have obviously put a lot of time and effort in.

The paradox is that a well trained/controlled dog gets more freedom and fun and the time and effort put in is a time saver because you have a dog you can take anywhere

I'm the one with a hyper spaniel but he is under control. I have to mediate his contact with other dogs. If those of us who work our dogs didn't have that degree of control a shoot day would be a riot.
I won't bore anybody with every bit of detail, but I massively underestimated how hard getting a puppy would be! You know that person you see on a dog walk who is covered in mud because the dog keeps relentlessly hurling itself at the owner, deciding to play tug of war with the lead and the owner looking more and more frustrated at the fact they have absolutely zero control over the dog and getting dragged around? Well that was me!

He was amazing at puppy classes, he just understood everything that was asked of him, but the moment you stop, he'd start launching himself at you, like a dog nose shaped torpedo aimed right at your face! All the time you're engaged with him and training, he's great, as soon as you sit down, try to have a shower, cook dinner, make a cup of tea, literally anything that doesn't involve him and he kicks off.

At one point he was VERY close to being rehomed. We trained him a fair amount and he knows the rules, but consciously chooses to just mess about and not do what he's told, he knows the rules, he's just taking the piss. He's a VERY intelligent dog but requires a very dedicated handler. In the end we took him to a sports club (Schutzhund) and started training with a group who compete and train all over Europe. This was ballache to be honest, it's a 2 hour drive each way so we left home at 6am on a Sunday and got home at about 6pm in the evening.

Training with actual dog trainers who REALLY know their stuff made a huge difference and the results we achieved in such a short space of time made the 4 hour drive every Sunday well worth it. I ended up working as a helper (the guy in the bite sleeve).

We trained with some of the best trainers in the country and it's amazing how much control they have over their dogs and most importantly, how happy their dogs are to receive orders.

If people aren't prepared to put the time in training a dog, then they shouldn't get a dog it's a simple as that. As Oddman perfectly summarises, a well trained / controlled dog gets more freedom and you can take it anywhere, it's no effort, it's stress free for the human and exciting for the dog, it's better for everybody.

Going from puppy classes to training with international trainers was quite a jump and I got shouted at a lot. When I look back now I can see I did some stupid things. Why when I asked to dog to sit or lay down did I feel the need to tell to dog to 'Stay'? If he's sat or laying down then he's not moving so why tell him to stay? It was this basic stuff that helped the most as the dog quickly learned that he told to lay down he doesn't break command until I tell him to. Sit means sit until I say it's ok to move! This takes time and patience and ultimately does require you to take the dog back to where he was before he broke command and start again. After 6 or 7 attempts it gets very trying but the dog will eventually (after weeks of training) just do what it is told.

Puppy classes are great to get you started but there is nothing wrong with questioning the trainer or doing your own research as a lot of these places give some bad advice in my opinion. I appreciate 'proper' trainers of working dogs are probably seen as using harsh methods compared to the trainer at the local village hall, but some dogs require clear instruction and given more help to understand.

A friend has nearly given up on their dog as its recall isn't good. They asked on a Thursday afternoon if I could help train the dog on the Saturday morning with them. My only request was that the dog doesn't get given any food at all until I see them on Saturday morning. We used a whole meals worth of dry food to work on recall in the garden. It's amazing how hard a hungry dog will work for food! The dog is still recalling and heeling nicely under vocal command even after it's been fed.

I was 'that person' once, which is why I have strict rules for my dogs and I get mildly annoyed when other people can't control their dogs or approach mine. I have no problem with my dogs interacting with other dogs, but not being able to control your dog from approaching another dog/or people really is a mandatory requirement by my book. They don't care if your dog just wants to play, the dog on the lead is there for a reason, respect it!

Autopilot

1,298 posts

183 months

Tuesday 10th January 2017
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ben5575 said:
oddman said:
The paradox is that a well trained/controlled dog gets more freedom and fun and the time and effort put in is a time saver because you have a dog you can take anywhere
Absolutely this. But it's a complicated point that a lot of people don't see or understand.

Same with kids as well biggrin
To save anybody from from having to read my full post...THIS ^^^^^^

Ken Figenus

5,680 posts

116 months

Tuesday 10th January 2017
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Serious effort on the training Autopilot, I can see why you are proud of the dog and effort. Basic puppy classes really can teach those that may otherwise end up with unsociable dogs the key basics and they will definitely enjoy a walk in the park far more. I was taught once, many moons ago by a dog whisperer type, how to get a dog to walk to heel in 5 mins and have 'done' this on friends' dogs several times. Most recently a very tuggy adult Spaniel - they though it was a miracle! But it wasn't - it was just a few set procedures that didn't confuse the dog and demanded the owner always be clear and consistent.

I think dogs are pretty consistent, whatever the breed - its us humans that are the fly in the ointment!