Advice re a dog that bolts when on walks :(
Discussion
Hello all, some of you may remeber/recognise that I have an 11 month old Cockapoo called Freddie and recently we have been having problems with bolting/legging it when we are on walks! There seems to be a number of owners hree who are very profficient with training so thought i would ask here for some advice, rather than just rely on those we know.
Since we got him at 10 weeks and even more so in the last 12 weeks we have used the help of a trainer, not because I want a performing dog, but because I want a dog that I can trust to do things when asked of him. Dont get me wrong, I am not expecting miracles, we were just hoping for an obedient dog! All had been going pretty well - there is no question he is an energetic and inquisitive little thing who has a lovely nature. I think that is half his problem, he thinks every person and animal is his best friend so when on walks if he sees anyone or anything he bounds up to them and wants to play (particularly women in white jeans!). When we walking, if we ever see anyone/thing before he does, we pop him back on the lead and either wait for them to pass or clarify their dog is good with energetic youngsters before allowing him off again.
All had been fine, we have always worked on his recall and when not distracted he comes back first time, 90% of the time - when distracted it can take a few extra calls or trying to make my space more fun but he has always come back - when I say not come back, he isn't out of sight, just standing his distance.
Now to the problem - last week my wife and I took him out as normal - during the walk he was getting a bit skittish (he sometimes does), darting off into the undergrowth of the woods (where we normally walk) and not coming back straight away when called. Called him to heel and he walked next to me quite happilly for a few minutes and then just bolted. We tried calling him back but nothing and after about 5 minutes we heard a yelping - cue me crashing through the bushes trying to find him. Long story short, ten mins later I found, happy as Larry but jumping high into the air as if he was searching for something, it then took another 10 minutes for me to actually get hold of him as he was so distracted. Obviously this concerned us as it was not his normal behaviour, no idea what the yelping was - no injuries and can only assume excitement. So we decided we would give the woods a miss for a week and took him to a few different fields near where we live and practiced the hell out of his recall - he was perfect everytime.
Today, we took him to the woods again - he was fine for first 10 minutes, met some other dogs, played for a bit then we continued as normal. Then again, he just bolted off into the woods and just wouldn't come back. This time we were in an area where the woods were thinner so for the most part we could see him, albiet at a distance and looked like he was properly on one. Bouncing up in to the air to try and see further, nose up sniffing but not turning at looking towards us when we called at all - not even once. Eventually my wife screamed (like she was hurt) which got his attention and he came bounding over. Unfortunatley that was the end of the free walk for him and he spent the rest of his time on a lead.
Sorry for the long explanation, but brings me to my question - what can be done to get over or stop this behavior? Just feel it's a real shame, he loves his walks and we enjoy them too but I just can't trust him off the lead. The woods are pretty big and if he did get himself lost we would be reliant on someone else finding him. They are far too big for us to be able to cover trying to find him. I have thought of a GPS tracker but they look like a minefield of cr*p that doesn't really work. Just don't know what we should do to work through this - not sure a long line would work as its not his recall that appears to be the problem per se, he is getting distracted by something. I tend to be quite vigilant when walking him, keeping my eye out for anything and have spotted deer etc before and got him on the lead before he has seen them - I don't think it was a deer he saw, most likely a squirrel and can't really defend against those! My current plan is not to go back to the woods for a few weeks, but don't really believe that will be long enough for him to forget or the solution.
Sorry this has turned out to be a pretty long explanation, hopefully it makes sense but sure I have missed a few bits out so please feel free to ask for more (!) information that I might not realise is relevant.
Thanks in advance
Since we got him at 10 weeks and even more so in the last 12 weeks we have used the help of a trainer, not because I want a performing dog, but because I want a dog that I can trust to do things when asked of him. Dont get me wrong, I am not expecting miracles, we were just hoping for an obedient dog! All had been going pretty well - there is no question he is an energetic and inquisitive little thing who has a lovely nature. I think that is half his problem, he thinks every person and animal is his best friend so when on walks if he sees anyone or anything he bounds up to them and wants to play (particularly women in white jeans!). When we walking, if we ever see anyone/thing before he does, we pop him back on the lead and either wait for them to pass or clarify their dog is good with energetic youngsters before allowing him off again.
All had been fine, we have always worked on his recall and when not distracted he comes back first time, 90% of the time - when distracted it can take a few extra calls or trying to make my space more fun but he has always come back - when I say not come back, he isn't out of sight, just standing his distance.
Now to the problem - last week my wife and I took him out as normal - during the walk he was getting a bit skittish (he sometimes does), darting off into the undergrowth of the woods (where we normally walk) and not coming back straight away when called. Called him to heel and he walked next to me quite happilly for a few minutes and then just bolted. We tried calling him back but nothing and after about 5 minutes we heard a yelping - cue me crashing through the bushes trying to find him. Long story short, ten mins later I found, happy as Larry but jumping high into the air as if he was searching for something, it then took another 10 minutes for me to actually get hold of him as he was so distracted. Obviously this concerned us as it was not his normal behaviour, no idea what the yelping was - no injuries and can only assume excitement. So we decided we would give the woods a miss for a week and took him to a few different fields near where we live and practiced the hell out of his recall - he was perfect everytime.
Today, we took him to the woods again - he was fine for first 10 minutes, met some other dogs, played for a bit then we continued as normal. Then again, he just bolted off into the woods and just wouldn't come back. This time we were in an area where the woods were thinner so for the most part we could see him, albiet at a distance and looked like he was properly on one. Bouncing up in to the air to try and see further, nose up sniffing but not turning at looking towards us when we called at all - not even once. Eventually my wife screamed (like she was hurt) which got his attention and he came bounding over. Unfortunatley that was the end of the free walk for him and he spent the rest of his time on a lead.
Sorry for the long explanation, but brings me to my question - what can be done to get over or stop this behavior? Just feel it's a real shame, he loves his walks and we enjoy them too but I just can't trust him off the lead. The woods are pretty big and if he did get himself lost we would be reliant on someone else finding him. They are far too big for us to be able to cover trying to find him. I have thought of a GPS tracker but they look like a minefield of cr*p that doesn't really work. Just don't know what we should do to work through this - not sure a long line would work as its not his recall that appears to be the problem per se, he is getting distracted by something. I tend to be quite vigilant when walking him, keeping my eye out for anything and have spotted deer etc before and got him on the lead before he has seen them - I don't think it was a deer he saw, most likely a squirrel and can't really defend against those! My current plan is not to go back to the woods for a few weeks, but don't really believe that will be long enough for him to forget or the solution.
Sorry this has turned out to be a pretty long explanation, hopefully it makes sense but sure I have missed a few bits out so please feel free to ask for more (!) information that I might not realise is relevant.
Thanks in advance
I'm having very similar problems with a 10 month old Collie.
From speaking to fellow owners, she's just going through a adolesent stage which may last until she is 18-24 months. For the first few months you are really interesting, but now she has learned that there are lots of other exciting things out there.
We need to keep on with the training make coming back to us the most exciting thing in the world for her and in the meantime we have her running around with a 5 meter line attached to her that we can grab when she doesn't want to come to us.
When calling her back she likes to just sit/lie down and stare at us but won't come any closer, like this:
From speaking to fellow owners, she's just going through a adolesent stage which may last until she is 18-24 months. For the first few months you are really interesting, but now she has learned that there are lots of other exciting things out there.
We need to keep on with the training make coming back to us the most exciting thing in the world for her and in the meantime we have her running around with a 5 meter line attached to her that we can grab when she doesn't want to come to us.
When calling her back she likes to just sit/lie down and stare at us but won't come any closer, like this:
Yes it does sound similar, 18-24 months feels like a long way away 😔.
I am not sure the long line would work for us for two reasons, firstly he just bolts off into the distance with no warning, I wouldn't be able to grab the line quick enough! Secondly, we tried him on one when he was younger, worked ok in the fields but we took him into some woodland and the line got all caught up around branches/scrub and he was stuck there - my fear is if he bolted with a long line and got stuck, he wouldn't be able to come back even if he wanted !!
Was joking with wife today- if we could just have a 10 minute conversation with him we could explain he would have so much more fun if he wasn't such a pain in the butt!! There, that's what I want, a ten minute conversation with him
I am not sure the long line would work for us for two reasons, firstly he just bolts off into the distance with no warning, I wouldn't be able to grab the line quick enough! Secondly, we tried him on one when he was younger, worked ok in the fields but we took him into some woodland and the line got all caught up around branches/scrub and he was stuck there - my fear is if he bolted with a long line and got stuck, he wouldn't be able to come back even if he wanted !!
Was joking with wife today- if we could just have a 10 minute conversation with him we could explain he would have so much more fun if he wasn't such a pain in the butt!! There, that's what I want, a ten minute conversation with him
That's the way it seems, it doesn't 'feel' like he is running from us, more that there is simply something more interesting. This time of year the pigeons seem to settle on the ground and he enjoys running over to them and watching them fly off (guess he would like to catch one but he can't fly yet!). So yes Squirells or Pigeons - not much I can do to avoid them though. Interestingly and probably related, our garden has lots of squirrels and every time he goes out his routine is to chase them all out/up trees - but he has done this since day 1 and this 'issue' has only started in the last week....
Hi,you seem to be starting in roughly the right direction by seeking the help of a trainer.
I would say a few things need to happen though. Everytime he practices this behaviour it is becoming more ingrained. It is self rewarding so will be repeated. So to start with as you suggested give the woods a miss for a while. If you go there keep him on lead, even a flexi (although I dont like them). You need to prevent the running off. At this age every recall must be heavily rewarded with whatever the dog finds is the best thing in the world, cheese, sausage squeeky ball whatever he thinks is the single best reward. Every single recall. Practice recalls on every walk, even when you don't want him for anything other than to touch his collar, give him a treat and let him go again. If you put the lead on everytime he recalls he will come to think of it as meaning the end of fun time. Also, rewarding frequently can be thought of as putting money in the bank. Everytime you reward a recall you are putting money in so you have some credit. If you never put money in you'll become overdrawn and eventually have nothing to draw on.
Then you need to up the ante everywhere else. Never allow it to be ignored. If he doesn't come go and fetch him, but in a nice way, not angrily. Never ever reprimand a recall. Even if he has run off and you are angry do not shout at him. You wouldn't respond if someone said come here I want to shout at you.
Then separately, at home to start with, get him used to chasing. A fleece, bit of fluff, anything. Then attach to string so you can get more excitement. Then attach said scrap to a lunge whip and encourage to chase on that. Google "the whip it game" but basically you control the toy and can ask the dog to stop chasing. The reward for stopping chasing is getting what they want, i.e. the thing on the end of the whip line. He only gets it when he has left it alone so when he stops chasing he gets rewarded with the thing he most wanted. If he keeps chasing when asked not to you flick it out of the way so he can't get it. You are building up your stop chasing command.
Coupled with the reward being the best thing in the world, building up a play relationship, so you are his best mate to play with but have a stop chasing command you can start to introduce in a low distraction environment using the whip in the fields you mentioned in your post. Gradually building up. Its a long road not be rushed but if you put the work in now you will have a fab dog for the rest of their life but if you don't you will have a dog that is hard to live with, constantly monitoring situations on walks and being on edge, not to mention the risks of him chasing say a cat across a busy road when you can't recall him off it.
Don't be tempted by a quick fix. Quick fixes like bullying the dog and telling off might appear to get results in the short term but won't help long term as you will damage the relationship and end up with a dog that works for you but only out of fear.
I'm not a dog trainer but we have 4 dogs, 2 working springers, a working cocker and a collie. All do agility and spaniels do gundog work, which obviously involves a lot of temptation around nice smelly small furries and will call off. They've all got KC good citizen awards.
If you are still struggling seek out a registered behaviourist who uses positive only methods.
Good luck! Do remember you have two hunting breeds crossed.
I would say a few things need to happen though. Everytime he practices this behaviour it is becoming more ingrained. It is self rewarding so will be repeated. So to start with as you suggested give the woods a miss for a while. If you go there keep him on lead, even a flexi (although I dont like them). You need to prevent the running off. At this age every recall must be heavily rewarded with whatever the dog finds is the best thing in the world, cheese, sausage squeeky ball whatever he thinks is the single best reward. Every single recall. Practice recalls on every walk, even when you don't want him for anything other than to touch his collar, give him a treat and let him go again. If you put the lead on everytime he recalls he will come to think of it as meaning the end of fun time. Also, rewarding frequently can be thought of as putting money in the bank. Everytime you reward a recall you are putting money in so you have some credit. If you never put money in you'll become overdrawn and eventually have nothing to draw on.
Then you need to up the ante everywhere else. Never allow it to be ignored. If he doesn't come go and fetch him, but in a nice way, not angrily. Never ever reprimand a recall. Even if he has run off and you are angry do not shout at him. You wouldn't respond if someone said come here I want to shout at you.
Then separately, at home to start with, get him used to chasing. A fleece, bit of fluff, anything. Then attach to string so you can get more excitement. Then attach said scrap to a lunge whip and encourage to chase on that. Google "the whip it game" but basically you control the toy and can ask the dog to stop chasing. The reward for stopping chasing is getting what they want, i.e. the thing on the end of the whip line. He only gets it when he has left it alone so when he stops chasing he gets rewarded with the thing he most wanted. If he keeps chasing when asked not to you flick it out of the way so he can't get it. You are building up your stop chasing command.
Coupled with the reward being the best thing in the world, building up a play relationship, so you are his best mate to play with but have a stop chasing command you can start to introduce in a low distraction environment using the whip in the fields you mentioned in your post. Gradually building up. Its a long road not be rushed but if you put the work in now you will have a fab dog for the rest of their life but if you don't you will have a dog that is hard to live with, constantly monitoring situations on walks and being on edge, not to mention the risks of him chasing say a cat across a busy road when you can't recall him off it.
Don't be tempted by a quick fix. Quick fixes like bullying the dog and telling off might appear to get results in the short term but won't help long term as you will damage the relationship and end up with a dog that works for you but only out of fear.
I'm not a dog trainer but we have 4 dogs, 2 working springers, a working cocker and a collie. All do agility and spaniels do gundog work, which obviously involves a lot of temptation around nice smelly small furries and will call off. They've all got KC good citizen awards.
If you are still struggling seek out a registered behaviourist who uses positive only methods.
Good luck! Do remember you have two hunting breeds crossed.
Wow, that is excellent, thank you Chris. As you importantly say, we need to get on top of this as really want the walks to be an enjoyable experience for us both and not me on tenter hooks the whole time, which I am sure he picks up on. It is trying to control his chase instinct which seems to override everything else.
The other thing which makes things hard is that he is not food motivated at all so there isn't a special treat that he is attracted to. Quite often when I call him back, he comes I make a big fuss but he won't take the treat ! We have tried everything, cheese, frankfurters, roast chicken, etc even left over roast rib of beef!! He is just not that interested in the food!
The other thing which makes things hard is that he is not food motivated at all so there isn't a special treat that he is attracted to. Quite often when I call him back, he comes I make a big fuss but he won't take the treat ! We have tried everything, cheese, frankfurters, roast chicken, etc even left over roast rib of beef!! He is just not that interested in the food!
It doesn't have to be a food treat. Is he interested in squeaky toys, or just normal even, frisbee maybe. Our springers will sell their soul for a common plain older the better tennis ball.
Does he take food treats anywhere else, in the house or garden? He could be over stimulated out on a walk. Do you engage with him on a walk. It sounds like you do but you'd be surprised with the number of people that seem to leave their dogs to find their own entertainment but then get upset when guess what they find their own ermm entertainment and won't call off it.
Does he take food treats anywhere else, in the house or garden? He could be over stimulated out on a walk. Do you engage with him on a walk. It sounds like you do but you'd be surprised with the number of people that seem to leave their dogs to find their own entertainment but then get upset when guess what they find their own ermm entertainment and won't call off it.
From what you've said, I wouldnt term that as 'bolting' - to me that's when a dog is gone, blindly chasing or running away from something for miles/hours.
Sounds like he's gone after a squirrel, then found another, then maybe a rabbit/pigeon etc.. its all fuelling his spaniel side to flush out game.
Its a big ask when we want dogs to forget their working dog traits especially at a juvenile age. Must be very exciting for him!
I've not had to deal with this particular issue but could he be desensitised by taking him to these woods a lot, so its not such a new 'game' each time.
Sounds like he's gone after a squirrel, then found another, then maybe a rabbit/pigeon etc.. its all fuelling his spaniel side to flush out game.
Its a big ask when we want dogs to forget their working dog traits especially at a juvenile age. Must be very exciting for him!
I've not had to deal with this particular issue but could he be desensitised by taking him to these woods a lot, so its not such a new 'game' each time.
Flushing dogs are trained to "chase" but very much not to catch whatever it is they flush. A great gun dog should know not to catch the bird but a good one should pull off whatever it is they are chasing on command. The idea of a gundog is to flush out the game not catch it beforehand it's shot.
Taking him to the woods often will make it not a "new" game but it could quickly become the best game.
Taking him to the woods often will make it not a "new" game but it could quickly become the best game.
chrisga said:
It doesn't have to be a food treat. Is he interested in squeaky toys, or just normal even, frisbee maybe. Our springers will sell their soul for a common plain older the better tennis ball.
Does he take food treats anywhere else, in the house or garden? He could be over stimulated out on a walk. Do you engage with him on a walk. It sounds like you do but you'd be surprised with the number of people that seem to leave their dogs to find their own entertainment but then get upset when guess what they find their own ermm entertainment and won't call off it.
I think you could be right on the over stimulation, when out on a walk he is so pumped, alert and darting all around. I think the term is 'quartering' - head down, bum up like a hoover, frantically sniffing everywhere. Is there an approach to an over stimulated dog to reduce their excitement, or is it simply down to control/training for when they are in that frame of mind. But you are right, he does seem more inclined to take treats at home, than when we are out.Does he take food treats anywhere else, in the house or garden? He could be over stimulated out on a walk. Do you engage with him on a walk. It sounds like you do but you'd be surprised with the number of people that seem to leave their dogs to find their own entertainment but then get upset when guess what they find their own ermm entertainment and won't call off it.
Up until last week, even when he was behaving like this we could get his attention and he would return, but it may have taken a few attempts. I do try and recall him regularly (when I don't need him back) and mess around with him, trying to make it fun and I make sure he is always within sight, letting him get further away before recall, to make the run back to me fun. Re the toys, his favourite things is chasing anything thrown and I use a tennis ball. He is not great at bringing it back to me, but have been working on this and it is improving. The last two walks, when he has
Sorry, I feel like I am being negative to everything you say, which is not my intention - I aim obviously either doing something wrong or simply not doing something, just trying to figure out what - but your comments are very useful. Thank you .
In answer to last post, based in South Bucks.
Edited by peekay74 on Wednesday 11th January 21:34
I don't think you are doing anything wrong necessarily. People over the centuries have worked to instill what you are seeing in your dog,i.e. selective breeding to exhibit the traits you are seeing, both cockers and poodles were working dogs.
It is too big a thing to try to just give an answer to but with everything its about building the relationship, with positive reward and building up to using the quartering as the ultimate reward itself so eventually you can say yes go and do that but only for as long as you want and he is happy to stop as he knows there might be another go just around the corner.
You sound like you have the basics but it is a massive amount of work and can be underestimated. As I said earlier you can take shortcuts which might give seemingly quick fixes but do it properly and do it now and you'll have a fantastic dog for the rest of time.
Sorry I don't know any trainers in your area but there is a fantastic group on facebook I could point you in the direction of if you use it. It is basically full of behaviourists and they won't allow a response to a question until it has been vetted by a professional so it doesn't get bunged up with hearsay. It's called Modern Dog Training and Behaviour. It's a public group with 38000 members. They would be able to recommend someone ethical if they cant help as well.
Stick with your training too though. Does your trainer have any ideas?
It is too big a thing to try to just give an answer to but with everything its about building the relationship, with positive reward and building up to using the quartering as the ultimate reward itself so eventually you can say yes go and do that but only for as long as you want and he is happy to stop as he knows there might be another go just around the corner.
You sound like you have the basics but it is a massive amount of work and can be underestimated. As I said earlier you can take shortcuts which might give seemingly quick fixes but do it properly and do it now and you'll have a fantastic dog for the rest of time.
Sorry I don't know any trainers in your area but there is a fantastic group on facebook I could point you in the direction of if you use it. It is basically full of behaviourists and they won't allow a response to a question until it has been vetted by a professional so it doesn't get bunged up with hearsay. It's called Modern Dog Training and Behaviour. It's a public group with 38000 members. They would be able to recommend someone ethical if they cant help as well.
Stick with your training too though. Does your trainer have any ideas?
Edited by chrisga on Wednesday 11th January 22:24
Oh and just to add, out of anything we train, recall is the top most important thing. It means we have trust in our dogs out and about when we can let them off lead when appropriate knowing they will come back when called if needed whether that's for an approaching person/dog or even for their own safety. If our dog pulls a bit on the lead well, meh, if it doesn't sit on command, meh but 100% we want them to come back. So you are doing the right thing to try to fix it now.
Thanks, I will take a look at the Facebook page.
Trainer is on holiday, so of course it happens when she is away! Wife texted her this evening and her response was very similar to yours, avoid the woods, it will become far too rewarding for him - get back to the fields and build up positive work. When I see her next week I will discuss the idea of the lunge line.
Again thanks for your input and time taken to respond, very much appreciated.
Trainer is on holiday, so of course it happens when she is away! Wife texted her this evening and her response was very similar to yours, avoid the woods, it will become far too rewarding for him - get back to the fields and build up positive work. When I see her next week I will discuss the idea of the lunge line.
Again thanks for your input and time taken to respond, very much appreciated.
No problem. Just thinking I sound like ours are all perfect. They aren't, so don't worry! You'll get there in the end and it will be worth it.
It wasn't a lunge line, it was a lunge whip (a long whip used in horse training) but could be made with a length of pipe and string. Just so you can keep the toy moving but keep control.
For recall if you are interested, a good book might be this one: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Total-Recall-Pippa-Mattin...
Pippa Mattinsons website is also very good. Here are some pages that might be interesting to you (or you may have already read):
http://thehappypuppysite.com/dog-training-when-tre...
http://thehappypuppysite.com/11-top-tips-for-a-gre...
http://totallydogtraining.com/training-a-pet-gundo...
It wasn't a lunge line, it was a lunge whip (a long whip used in horse training) but could be made with a length of pipe and string. Just so you can keep the toy moving but keep control.
For recall if you are interested, a good book might be this one: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Total-Recall-Pippa-Mattin...
Pippa Mattinsons website is also very good. Here are some pages that might be interesting to you (or you may have already read):
http://thehappypuppysite.com/dog-training-when-tre...
http://thehappypuppysite.com/11-top-tips-for-a-gre...
http://totallydogtraining.com/training-a-pet-gundo...
Edited by chrisga on Wednesday 11th January 23:21
garythesign said:
One thought which I am not sure if mentioned is using a whistle
this has two benefits. 1) Your dog only has to listen for one sound. 2) Any frustration you are feeling is removed from your voice.
You will get there. - said as the owner of a 9 year old working cocker - good luck
Thank you for this - it does make sensethis has two benefits. 1) Your dog only has to listen for one sound. 2) Any frustration you are feeling is removed from your voice.
You will get there. - said as the owner of a 9 year old working cocker - good luck
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