Are you concerned about flying?

[ETOPS]

You'll have to ask retrobob.

I always assumed you scanned your boarding pass under a little machine, like when you're at the gate.

[ETOPS]

Yep, all well and good on the GA side of things. I'm curious about pressurized jet aircraft; airbus/Boeing. In particular, the number of 737s you've seen with missing 'fuel filler caps'.

Just give up. Stop lying, and accept the fact that you haven't the faintest idea what you're talking about.

[Ginetta G15 Girl]

So,

When did Boeing, Airbus, et al, have over-wing refueling capability and not Pressure refueling?

[Ray Luxury-Yacht]

Here's a bit of fun to add to the conversation.

I've posted before about being lucky enough to have flown around a fair bit of the UK, at low level in a Jet Ranger Heli. Spent about 6 or 7 days in total in the air, loved every second.

One morning, we came out to the Heli which was parked in a large garden of the B&B we were staying in overnight.

The pilot did his usual checks, and as he had one of the top inspection hatches open, he grabbed the rotor assembly shafts and gave them a good shake. They're mounted with moveable bushes, but there was quite a bit of play there as it seemed to move an awful lot.

He just snorted, and said to me 'heh, they're all knackered, these old Helis I have to fly'

I THINK he was joking anyway...

[robmlufc]

Some jets have caps over the pressure fittings that fit flush with the airframe, I guess these could drop off if not refitted correctly.

[anonymous-user]

robmlufc said:

Some jets have caps over the pressure fittings that fit flush with the airframe, I guess these could drop off if not refitted correctly.

Only very very small jets.

On a 737.



The refuelling panel is under the wing and an access panel covers the whole shebang.

similar on 757/767/777 etc.

Here's a 777. As you can see the panel has a cover door which has four clips, it's unlikely to open by itself. There's no removable fuel caps.



There might be caps on the fuel nozzle but not the aircraft.

[StevieBee]

TangerinePool said:

What absolute fg bs!

If that was the case we'd have more planes falling out the sky than the current ZERO that do. 1989 was the last time we had a fatal crash with one of our aircraft and that was due to pilot error and poor procedures for dealing with a blind engine failure, not 'errant use of gaffer tape'.

Was thinking the very same thing!

It has become common on PH and other places for baggage handlers, airport cleaning staff and the ilk to pass on stories about how they've seen planes leave with wings hanging off and other scary stuff but - and I may be wrong here - I do kind of think that there's a reason that such people remain baggage handlers and not pilots/ engineers, etc, who are actually better placed to judge such matters.

[anonymous-user]

The A320 has a cover over the pressure refuelling receptor but it's unlikely to come off as it's attached to the wing by a lanyard, you wouldn't see it from the cabin as it's under the wing.



I'm not sure what all this is about anymore. Did someone say they'd seen a boeing with a fuel cap missing or an airbus or something else?

[robmlufc]

el stovey said:

Only very very small jets.

On a 737.



The refuelling panel is under the wing and an access panel covers the whole shebang.

similar on 757/767/777 etc.

Here's a 777. As you can see the panel has a cover door which has four clips, it's unlikely to open by itself. There's no removable fuel caps.



There might be caps on the fuel nozzle but not the aircraft.

Yup, fully aware of the 777 fuel system ;-) Just pointing out that fuel caps do exist, not just a myth.
Get enough airflow and a lanyard wont do a whole lot to help :-)

Edited by robmlufc on Thursday 11th October 08:55

[ETOPS]

el stovey said:

On a more pertinent note, this looks to be The jazzy architecture of Bangkok Suvarnamawamabuniwuni, peering over in the distance.

The finest juxtaposition of modern exterior, with some form of time-warp interior. It's like it was designed to give just th faintest hint of the level of carnage to be expected, once popping out of the other side of the building.

Incidentally, I swallowed some form of Teradactyl on climb out from there not too long ago.

Edited by ETOPS on Thursday 11th October 09:09

[Edinburger]

ETOPS said:

Edinburger said:

Rawwr said:

The great thing about plane crashes is that they tend to be a fairly black and white issue when it comes to survival.

A friend of a friend is a pilot with Cathay Pacific. He once told me that if he flies twice a day for five days a week, then statistically he wouldn't crash for 27,000 Years and even then statistically he'd survive.

retrobob said:

My boss knows someone in catering and every so often they pull up side by side on one of the roads that go around the perimeter and we get given delicious Carrot Cake.

Jesus, if your boss knows someone who can deliver cake, then you must be in a position to question aerospace engineering techniques.

Piss take, I assume?

[ETOPS]

Edinburger said:

Piss take, I assume?

It's possible

[Super Slo Mo]

tvrolet said:

Do this? - yes.
Got past it? - not really.

plus a load of other stuff, snipped to make the quote smaller

I don't fly as much as you, but still manage around 30 flights a year normally, although I've not done as many this year, what with the Olympics being in the UK, as were a number of other high profile events.

However, my take on it is fairly simple: There's absolutely nothing at all I can do about it, once I'm inside the aircraft, so there's absolutely no point in worrying as it won't change anything, and only ends up making me feel ill.

I know it's easy to say, and fear is irrational and difficult to deal with, but you're going to die sooner or later, worrying about the where and how are pointless, so you might as well just get on and try and enjoy life. Worry is stressful, and if you repeatedly get stressed, you're likely to shorten your life anyway.

[anonymous-user]

Super Slo Mo said:

However, my take on it is fairly simple: There's absolutely nothing at all I can do about it, once I'm inside the aircraft, so there's absolutely no point in worrying as it won't change anything, and only ends up making me feel ill.

.

There's actually plenty you can do about it.

You can sit near an exit, you can know exactly how to get to an exit. Most people die from burns or asphyxiation, your chance of survival can be improved hugely depending on how quickly you can get out off anything burning. If you see someone acting suspiciously you can report them, if someone tries to hijack or blow up the aircraft you can help stop them.

You're quite right to sit there worrying, there's loads that can go wrong and loads you can do to survive it.

[Super Slo Mo]

el stovey said:

Super Slo Mo said:

However, my take on it is fairly simple: There's absolutely nothing at all I can do about it, once I'm inside the aircraft, so there's absolutely no point in worrying as it won't change anything, and only ends up making me feel ill.

.

There's actually plenty you can do about it.

You can sit near an exit, you can know exactly how to get to an exit. Most people die from burns or asphyxiation, your chance of survival can be improved hugely depending on how quickly you can get out off anything burning. If you see someone acting suspiciously you can report them, if someone tries to hijack or blow up the aircraft you can help stop them.

You're quite right to sit there worrying, there's loads that can go wrong and loads you can do to survive it.

Well yes, of course, but most of those are blindingly obvious, aren't they? I always have a quick read of the safety sheet, and check to see the nearest exit.

None of those things particularly worry me, it's more the 'are we going to inadvertently hit the ground?' But as said, it's not something that bothers me anymore as I get older, something will get me eventually.

On a lighter note relating to your point about hijacking, I flew to the middle east shortly after September 11th 2001. While it wasn't tense particularly, I got a sense that all the white people were looking out of the corner of their eyes at all the brown people. Some not so subtly either . It's completely irrational of course, but I guess to some extent understandable.

[tvrolet]

Super Slo Mo said:

Well yes, of course, but most of those are blindingly obvious, aren't they? I always have a quick read of the safety sheet, and check to see the nearest exit.

None of those things particularly worry me, it's more the 'are we going to inadvertently hit the ground?' But as said, it's not something that bothers me anymore as I get older, something will get me eventually.

On a lighter note relating to your point about hijacking, I flew to the middle east shortly after September 11th 2001. While it wasn't tense particularly, I got a sense that all the white people were looking out of the corner of their eyes at all the brown people. Some not so subtly either . It's completely irrational of course, but I guess to some extent understandable.

I flew Edinburgh-Southampton on September 12, 2001 and the airport was deserted. This was when BMI flew the route on Embraers and we were bussed to the plane. Only 8 or so folks had turned up, one of whom was...shall we say, swarthy. Folks weren't just looking out the corner of their eyes, they were staring at this now rather uncomforatble looking bloke. Everyone continued to stare nervously even on the flight until they served breakfast. He accepted a breakfast tray and proceeded to eat - at that point there was an tangible sigh of relief from the remaining passengers. Everyone had, as one, decide that if he's just eaten a pork sausage for breakfast he's not a muslim about to top himself. On the return flight most folks were similarly unseasy but one young lady's legs just turned to jelly on the walk out to the plane. I've never seen anyone before or since just lose all muscle-power - she basically just collapsed in a heap. Rather than get first aid or whetever though, the gound staff bodily picked up this rag-doll stylee human and carried her on to the plane, dropped her on a seat and strapped her in!

But back to the original - there's a few folks giving it the 'I don't worry - what will be will be - I have no control so I don't care' etc. This shows a real misunderstanding of the deep and illogical fear some folks have. Given I fly a lot, and get stressed a lot I've done a fair bit of reading and also tried lots of solutions.

This isn't a logical fear like walking across a rotting bridge above a 2000' gorge, or being stuck in a cage with a hungry lion. Some folks indeed do have a fear of flying with things like the wings falling off, but at that 'logical' level they can be addressed with education. Folks can see pictures of a great big spar in there, and have a look at videos of wings bending etc... They car read stats of how many times wings actually break etc.

But with the deep and illogical fear of flying, the logical solutions such as understanding how things work, and sitting near an exit or reading the card do not work. It seems this illogical fear is down personality type - it's just how you're built. In particular its folks with higher than normal levels of dopamine and seratonin faced with a situation where they have no control. Folks with normal or low levels of dopamine are not so afflicted. There is a set of common characteristics that can go together which includes - mild 'thill seeker' so wanting to drive fast, enjoy roller coasters etc; the inability to comprehend why others might not enjoy fast driving and coasters; and a fear of being a passenger in an aircraft. These 3 things often go together as a set. In my case I love track days, always queue for the front row of a coaster, can't understand why anyone wouldn't enjoy these things, and get terrified in turbulence. In fairness what is presented as 'fear of flying' in this particular personality type is actually a fear of things outside their control when at raised stress/anxiety levels, so I'm also a rotten passenger in a car too...

The is sufficiently illogical that I once took a 1-hour trial 'flying lesson' in a wee plane. I was most uneasy with the instructor flying, but when I had a shot at the controls I was absolutely fine, including getting bumped about a little - but I'm not a pilot, so by any logical measure the risk had gone up significantly with me at the controls yet I was now relaxed as the brain felt I was somehow back 'in control'.

So for folks with this deep seated 'lack of control' fear it simply isn't possible to address it by thinking 'what will be will be'; something deep in the psyche kicks in and there's precious little you can do except live with it (and drink to excess).

[Super Slo Mo]

tvrolet said:

But back to the original - there's a few folks giving it the 'I don't worry - what will be will be - I have no control so I don't care' etc. This shows a real misunderstanding of the deep and illogical fear some folks have. Given I fly a lot, and get stressed a lot I've done a fair bit of reading and also tried lots of solutions.

This isn't a logical fear like walking across a rotting bridge above a 2000' gorge, or being stuck in a cage with a hungry lion. Some folks indeed do have a fear of flying with things like the wings falling off, but at that 'logical' level they can be addressed with education. Folks can see pictures of a great big spar in there, and have a look at videos of wings bending etc... They car read stats of how many times wings actually break etc.

But with the deep and illogical fear of flying, the logical solutions such as understanding how things work, and sitting near an exit or reading the card do not work. It seems this illogical fear is down personality type - it's just how you're built. In particular its folks with higher than normal levels of dopamine and seratonin faced with a situation where they have no control. Folks with normal or low levels of dopamine are not so afflicted. There is a set of common characteristics that can go together which includes - mild 'thill seeker' so wanting to drive fast, enjoy roller coasters etc; the inability to comprehend why others might not enjoy fast driving and coasters; and a fear of being a passenger in an aircraft. These 3 things often go together as a set. In my case I love track days, always queue for the front row of a coaster, can't understand why anyone wouldn't enjoy these things, and get terrified in turbulence. In fairness what is presented as 'fear of flying' in this particular personality type is actually a fear of things outside their control when at raised stress/anxiety levels, so I'm also a rotten passenger in a car too...

The is sufficiently illogical that I once took a 1-hour trial 'flying lesson' in a wee plane. I was most uneasy with the instructor flying, but when I had a shot at the controls I was absolutely fine, including getting bumped about a little - but I'm not a pilot, so by any logical measure the risk had gone up significantly with me at the controls yet I was now relaxed as the brain felt I was somehow back 'in control'.

So for folks with this deep seated 'lack of control' fear it simply isn't possible to address it by thinking 'what will be will be'; something deep in the psyche kicks in and there's precious little you can do except live with it (and drink to excess).

I hear what you're saying, and yes, I am probably guilty of being a little flippant.

As one who suffers to some extent from psychological illness (depression, on and off, mostly off these days thankfully), I understand what you mean, believe me, when you say it's out of your control. You didn't go into as much detail with your earlier post, else I probably wouldn't have responded.

To be fair, it's my way of dealing with flying, although it's never bothered me all that much anyway, apart from a handful of times when we've hit some pretty bad bumps. Mind you, I try and avoid helicopters regardless, I had my first flight in one a few weeks ago over Birmingham, and while it was an amazing experience, I harbour no desire to get back in.

In my case, as I age I find stress is now taking its toll and is something I actively try and avoid if possible, although being the kind of person that dwells on issues and situations, it's somewhat difficult.

[Pothole]

el stovey said:

Super Slo Mo said:

However, my take on it is fairly simple: There's absolutely nothing at all I can do about it, once I'm inside the aircraft, so there's absolutely no point in worrying as it won't change anything, and only ends up making me feel ill.

.

There's actually plenty you can do about it.

You can sit near an exit, you can know exactly how to get to an exit. Most people die from burns or asphyxiation, your chance of survival can be improved hugely depending on how quickly you can get out off anything burning. If you see someone acting suspiciously you can report them, if someone tries to hijack or blow up the aircraft you can help stop them.

You're quite right to sit there worrying, there's loads that can go wrong and loads you can do to survive it.

no you're not. Preparing, perhaps. Worrying is a complete waste of time and will not change anything.

[jackal]

Ari said:

Started a job that requires a bit of international flying about a year ago. Love the travelling, not sure I'd say I hate the flying, but distinctly uneasy about it.

I rationalise it all the time, realise probably more dangerous driving to the airport etc, but it's just being... up there. At least if you're in a car crash you're already on the ground.

I find myself analysing every noise, every change in engine note, every bump, even scrutinising every passenger in the boarding queue. Pointless.

Anyone else do this?

Anyone got past it?

I went in a cable car when I was about 26. Freaked out a bit. Didn't really have a panic attack as such but felt a sense of fear that I found profoundly unpleasant and upsetting, so unpleasant that it stopped me flying for 15 years or so.

This was a big mistake (not least because a fear of heights has nothing to do with flying) and although I always holidayed well in those years and was quite well travlled beforehand, I missed out destination wise in those years and still have much catching up to do.

When I had kids it made me sort the issue out. To help me I read these 2 books all about flying, pilots, planes, how crew are trained, safety statistics etc.. These books covered absoultely everything. Armed with the proper facts and knowing what every single noise was helped enormously. They also covered the claustrophobia side of things and how to dealw ith the onset of a panic attack. I didn't need this side of it myself but it's all there in the books. I took some diazepam with me as well on the first couple of flights. Even as a placebo, it made me feel more in control and as though I had some sort of escape route should I really start stting bricks 30,000 feet up. I think this is a big part of people's fear of flying ... the 'what do i do' if I start panicking up there. Your in a small tube many miles up and you cant just go an lie down, take a bath or run around a field screaming.

I fly quite a bit now. I'm still a bit nervous and I think I always will be... i'm a 'driver' after a all ! Even having a quite a few flights close together, you never really get used to it and those first 10 minutes at 20 degrees nose up always feel completely bizarre/unatural. Knowing the facts helps a lot though, and its information that will stay with you forever. I have recenty extended this idea by also playing around with MS FlightSim a bit but that's prolly taking it a bit too far.

Edited by jackal on Friday 12th October 01:21

[chilistrucker]

This thread made for great reading.
Just flown from back from Egypt, and after abit of turbulence thought I' d try and find out more.
So via the search bar, ended up here, and after 17 pages feel alot more enlightened
I take my hats off to all the flight crew, ground crew, engineers etc, and now have a slightly better understanding of whats, what. Flying doesn't bother me to much, apart from the odd butt clenching moment after the odd bit of turbulence. I now know, I'm probably more at risk behind the wheel of my wagon on the roads of Europe, than I am when flying to and from my holiday destinations