Who is going skiing and where in 2017

[Welshbeef]

Jarcy said:

Once you get to a certain standard, then the ecstasy of skiing in deep powder and the magic of the isolation of an alpine wilderness, is worth all the risks and too much of a draw for many people. Once pistes no longer challenge you, it's natural to start exploring off piste.

There are never any guarantees, but of course the advice is to use a guide, unless you are skilled not only in detailed mountain-craft, but also have extensive local knowledge. One of my annual holidays that I take is a specific off-piste adventure, where we are looked after by a guide for the duration. Sometimes on a 'family' or 'mates' holiday I'll take a day out and hire a guide for some off piste adventures.

Myself and my kids (young adults) often explore lift-served off piste without a guide. But all precautions are taken, including ensuring that we're fully kitted with avalanche gear. Avalanches can always occur (even on piste) but one hopes that straying off the sides of the piste is not too dangerous so long as kept 'in bounds'.

Understand.
I guess for me I doubt I'd ever be at that standard with only 6 days a year and with so many resorts to try I'll never cover these in my skiable life.

Maybe I'm getting old! But the excitement and fear of a really narrow steep section of Iced red is really really pushing my limit. / I find that more of an achievement over yea done let's do it again

[Mothersruin]

Welshbeef said:

Jarcy said:

Once you get to a certain standard, then the ecstasy of skiing in deep powder and the magic of the isolation of an alpine wilderness, is worth all the risks and too much of a draw for many people. Once pistes no longer challenge you, it's natural to start exploring off piste.

There are never any guarantees, but of course the advice is to use a guide, unless you are skilled not only in detailed mountain-craft, but also have extensive local knowledge. One of my annual holidays that I take is a specific off-piste adventure, where we are looked after by a guide for the duration. Sometimes on a 'family' or 'mates' holiday I'll take a day out and hire a guide for some off piste adventures.

Myself and my kids (young adults) often explore lift-served off piste without a guide. But all precautions are taken, including ensuring that we're fully kitted with avalanche gear. Avalanches can always occur (even on piste) but one hopes that straying off the sides of the piste is not too dangerous so long as kept 'in bounds'.

Understand.
I guess for me I doubt I'd ever be at that standard with only 6 days a year and with so many resorts to try I'll never cover these in my skiable life.

Maybe I'm getting old! But the excitement and fear of a really narrow steep section of Iced red is really really pushing my limit. / I find that more of an achievement over yea done let's do it again

How many lessons do you have now when you go?

[Welshbeef]

Mothersruin said:

How many lessons do you have now when you go?

I haven't for a few seasons now - been trying to get our 4year old up to level 4 as quickly as possible then our 2year old I want him to get on skis or snowboard /knowing him he'll be a boarder and she's definitely a skier.


I think I should get some more lessons in this season.

[Leithen]

Welshbeef said:

I haven't for a few seasons now - been trying to get our 4year old up to level 4 as quickly as possible then our 2year old I want him to get on skis or snowboard /knowing him he'll be a boarder and she's definitely a skier.


I think I should get some more lessons in this season.

Don't push the young ones too hard!

[NRS]

Jarcy said:

Welshbeef said:

I'm a strict Piste skier so no worries there.

A few years ago we were in Bansko (2015) when we arrived the snow in the village was crazy meters deep wading through the stuff. Usually none in the town or just a tiny bit. Anyway there were strict instructions on all the information boards and speaker system (continiously) high avalanche risk off piste do not go off piste. Pretty clear and in countless languages.

Anyway sadly I think 3 - 5 individuals climbed to the peak and went off piste, they followed each other but the last person triggered an avalanche over them all. All were killed.

A few years before that friends of friends went and one liked off piste he got lost took 5 hours of wading through deep snow to get back to normality (no one knew where he was). As it turned out a local was walking and saw him then was waving frantically at him - he managed to get over to him, turned out he was walking over a small lake without knowing so could easily of died and really it would be unlikely of finding him until the thaw.

It looks cool in the videos but not for me or our kids

Once you get to a certain standard, then the ecstasy of skiing in deep powder and the magic of the isolation of an alpine wilderness, is worth all the risks and too much of a draw for many people. Once pistes no longer challenge you, it's natural to start exploring off piste.

There are never any guarantees, but of course the advice is to use a guide, unless you are skilled not only in detailed mountain-craft, but also have extensive local knowledge. One of my annual holidays that I take is a specific off-piste adventure, where we are looked after by a guide for the duration. Sometimes on a 'family' or 'mates' holiday I'll take a day out and hire a guide for some off piste adventures.

Myself and my kids (young adults) often explore lift-served off piste without a guide. But all precautions are taken, including ensuring that we're fully kitted with avalanche gear. Avalanches can always occur (even on piste) but one hopes that straying off the sides of the piste is not too dangerous so long as kept 'in bounds'.

Here in Norway my impression of those who normally die in avalanches are:

1. Tourists used to ski touring but who have paid a lot of money for a week of skiing in a new place. If it's touchy conditions then the locals will just stay home because they can go whenever. However since the tourists have paid a lot of money and been really looking forward to skiing they can push things too far saying it will be ok anyway. Often it is, but not always. In addition you don't know the typical types of avalanches for the area (marine climate would be different from drier continental conditions) so are less clued up on what to pay attention to. They also haven't see how the snowpack has built up that season.
2. People who have grown up on-piste skiing and are very good skiers. The problem for them is they haven't built up the skills for snow reading etc, but "need" steep and exciting stuff to ski to make it fun, so end up going through avalanche terrain with very little clue on the danger they are putting themselves in. Often this can be an older guy on his own.
3. People just getting their reading of the conditions wrong despite having done courses etc. It's actually statistically safer not to do an avalanche course, I guess related to the risks you take or not based on what you think you know.

[Mothersruin]

Welshbeef said:

Mothersruin said:

How many lessons do you have now when you go?

I haven't for a few seasons now - been trying to get our 4year old up to level 4 as quickly as possible then our 2year old I want him to get on skis or snowboard /knowing him he'll be a boarder and she's definitely a skier.


I think I should get some more lessons in this season.

Yeah, do.

I'd rate myself as alright and still have at least one lesson per trip, often more if I click with the instructor.

Works on a number of levels.

Firstly, you can never have enough tuition (providing they're OK) and even if it's only to iron out a few bad habits - if not addressed, they can become far harder to look at later - also helps keep abreast of technology and how it shapes technique.

Secondly, instructors love skiing with other good skiers, they get to stretch their legs and they LOVE to show off the best places given half a chance, which is brilliant for the rest of your holiday.

I usually book for the second skiing day so I have a day to dial it in beforehand.

If the person is good, then I'll book another for the 4th or 5th day - maybe chuck in some off-piste stuff if the conditions are good.

Hard to find the good instructors though.

[feef]

NRS said:

feef said:

Huge dumps, mental low temps and no base means an unstable snow pack unfortunately, especially if it's not followed up with more snow or a quick thaw/freeze to consolidate the base.

The key temperature gradient is 10 degrees per meter. If there's more than 10deg per meter difference within the snow pack, then there's the likelihood that you'll see depth hoar develop, and the avalanche risk go up significantly

Would it not depend a lot on if the ground was frozen previously? We had no snow for ages through November, but it was around -5 for a month with no precipitation, which has meant the ground froze nicely to help not result in a trapped heat "source" under the snow, which should help later in the season

Not really, in temperate climates, the temperature where the snow meets the ground quickly equalises to about zero degrees, regardless of the temperature above the snow pack (areas of permafrost excluded). Snow is quite a good insulator, which is why this happens.

I can recommend Backcountry Avalanche Safety (3rd edition) by Tony Daffern and Avalanche! by Robert Bolognesi as good introductions to the science and evaluation of Avalanche risk.

[Cheib]

NRS said:

Here in Norway my impression of those who normally die in avalanches are:

1. Tourists used to ski touring but who have paid a lot of money for a week of skiing in a new place. If it's touchy conditions then the locals will just stay home because they can go whenever. However since the tourists have paid a lot of money and been really looking forward to skiing they can push things too far saying it will be ok anyway. Often it is, but not always. In addition you don't know the typical types of avalanches for the area (marine climate would be different from drier continental conditions) so are less clued up on what to pay attention to. They also haven't see how the snowpack has built up that season.
2. People who have grown up on-piste skiing and are very good skiers. The problem for them is they haven't built up the skills for snow reading etc, but "need" steep and exciting stuff to ski to make it fun, so end up going through avalanche terrain with very little clue on the danger they are putting themselves in. Often this can be an older guy on his own.
3. People just getting their reading of the conditions wrong despite having done courses etc. It's actually statistically safer not to do an avalanche course, I guess related to the risks you take or not based on what you think you know.

I'd add that another common one is tourists seeing groups off piste and then saying to themselves "we'll try that later in the week"...by the time they get to try it later in the week (or even later in the day) that pitch that was safe to ski when that group they saw went down it is anything but.

[Welshbeef]

So had confirmation 75cm of snow fell on Bansko pistes over he last few days.

As such they are opening up very early 3/12/16 for a mere £12.88 daily lift pass until season starts properly


Superb

[KTF]

Bulgaria is cheap but the resorts are tiny. We could easily ski the whole of Bankso in a day then what do you do for the remaining 5 days?

[NRS]

feef said:

NRS said:

feef said:

Huge dumps, mental low temps and no base means an unstable snow pack unfortunately, especially if it's not followed up with more snow or a quick thaw/freeze to consolidate the base.

The key temperature gradient is 10 degrees per meter. If there's more than 10deg per meter difference within the snow pack, then there's the likelihood that you'll see depth hoar develop, and the avalanche risk go up significantly

Would it not depend a lot on if the ground was frozen previously? We had no snow for ages through November, but it was around -5 for a month with no precipitation, which has meant the ground froze nicely to help not result in a trapped heat "source" under the snow, which should help later in the season

Not really, in temperate climates, the temperature where the snow meets the ground quickly equalises to about zero degrees, regardless of the temperature above the snow pack (areas of permafrost excluded). Snow is quite a good insulator, which is why this happens.

I can recommend Backcountry Avalanche Safety (3rd edition) by Tony Daffern and Avalanche! by Robert Bolognesi as good introductions to the science and evaluation of Avalanche risk.

I'm meaning if there is no snow on the ground and it is stable minus temperatures for a long time before any snow comes you are able to freeze the ground more deeply, and so reduce trapping a "warm layer" just under the snow, as there was no snow to act as an insulator on top. So the gradient is reduced as you're able to freeze the ground more deeply and spread the temperature gradient over a larger interval. That said, I am in the arctic and although no permafrost here we often will have around 6 months of snow so the ground doesn't warm up nearly as much. Combine that with a maritime climate and generally deep hoar is not such an issue here.

[feef]

NRS said:

I'm meaning if there is no snow on the ground and it is stable minus temperatures for a long time before any snow comes you are able to freeze the ground more deeply, and so reduce trapping a "warm layer" just under the snow, as there was no snow to act as an insulator on top. So the gradient is reduced as you're able to freeze the ground more deeply and spread the temperature gradient over a larger interval. That said, I am in the arctic and although no permafrost here we often will have around 6 months of snow so the ground doesn't warm up nearly as much. Combine that with a maritime climate and generally deep hoar is not such an issue here.

No, as I said, it refers to temperate climate areas, such as the Alps. Although not permafrost, I'd say you're far enough north not to be considered a temperate zone in this sense (although it's borderline).

Even then, in the Alps, were it to be -10 for weeks on end, but dry without snow, and then a dump of snow dropped on the frozen ground. The ground layer would soon end up at around zero degrees.

[Welshbeef]

KTF said:

Bulgaria is cheap but the resorts are tiny. We could easily ski the whole of Bankso in a day then what do you do for the remaining 5 days?

It's 75km in Bansko.
There are two small resorts very close by which have a few runs on it too.

They have been trying to expand the number of pistes for the last 6 years but the Govt controlled the area refused point blank. Govt has just changed and appears to be much more open to extending permissions. Ski area could then easily double.

Pomparovo isn't that far nor Borovets if your wanting to try different runs. But it's not supposed to be a direct competitor to the 3 Valleys it's a cheap and challenging set of pistes which has charm and enables beginners to get used to it and then once god enjoy the big resorts elsewhere.

[Cheburator mk2]

KTF said:

Bulgaria is cheap but the resorts are tiny. We could easily ski the whole of Bankso in a day then what do you do for the remaining 5 days?

Depends how good your skiing is? Anyone can snowplough down the reds and blacks... When you have done the pistes in Bansko, you go and hire a guide, as the off-piste is on par with the best Europe can offer... If you cannot go off-piste, then perhaps you can do more lessons in the resort?

[Jarcy]

Welshbeef said:

So had confirmation 75cm of snow fell on Bansko pistes over he last few days.

As such they are opening up very early 3/12/16 for a mere £12.88 daily lift pass until season starts properly


Superb

I see your £12.88 and I'll raise you (or rather lower) to €10.00 for one of the most fantastic days skiing I've every had.
Date was about 16th December 2011, and we had about a meter of fresh powder overnight. Decided to drive to Flaine, but on the way saw that the gondola at Les Carroz was running contrary to their scheduled opening. So only the one gondola was open, but it served the whole mountain. With the 4 of us, there were only approx 12 people on the mountain the whole day. 1 restaurant open for a delicious lunch. And fresh powder tracks wherever you decided to ski. Bliss.

[Welshbeef]

Cheburator mk2 said:

Depends how good your skiing is? Anyone can snowplough down the reds and blacks... When you have done the pistes in Bansko, you go and hire a guide, as the off-piste is on par with the best Europe can offer... If you cannot go off-piste, then perhaps you can do more lessons in the resort?

As you say off piste is apparently very good (not tried it personally)

I'd struggle to justify the big resort costs for a big family /. It would restrict my number of times I ski and imagine that's the same for many people.

[feef]

Welshbeef said:

Cheburator mk2 said:

Depends how good your skiing is? Anyone can snowplough down the reds and blacks... When you have done the pistes in Bansko, you go and hire a guide, as the off-piste is on par with the best Europe can offer... If you cannot go off-piste, then perhaps you can do more lessons in the resort?

As you say off piste is apparently very good (not tried it personally)

I'd struggle to justify the big resort costs for a big family /. It would restrict my number of times I ski and imagine that's the same for many people.

If you're willing to drive, it works out relatively cheap, even at half term. For me and my son, all in (but excluding food) is coming to £1500 for a week in avoriaz during Feb half term.
I was struggling to find a per-person price for that on the package deals.

[Cheburator mk2]

feef said:

If you're willing to drive, it works out relatively cheap, even at half term. For me and my son, all in (but excluding food) is coming to £1500 for a week in avoriaz during Feb half term.
I was struggling to find a per-person price for that on the package deals.

Totally - we are off to Samoens for X-mas/NYE and two more times in Feb/March. Even with a drive down in a X5 4.8i a holiday for a family of 4-skiers with everything is £2.5k with all in!

[Janosh]

NRS said:

Here in Norway my impression of those who normally die in avalanches are:

1. Tourists used to ski touring but who have paid a lot of money for a week of skiing in a new place. If it's touchy conditions then the locals will just stay home because they can go whenever. However since the tourists have paid a lot of money and been really looking forward to skiing they can push things too far saying it will be ok anyway. Often it is, but not always. In addition you don't know the typical types of avalanches for the area (marine climate would be different from drier continental conditions) so are less clued up on what to pay attention to. They also haven't see how the snowpack has built up that season.
2. People who have grown up on-piste skiing and are very good skiers. The problem for them is they haven't built up the skills for snow reading etc, but "need" steep and exciting stuff to ski to make it fun, so end up going through avalanche terrain with very little clue on the danger they are putting themselves in. Often this can be an older guy on his own.
3. People just getting their reading of the conditions wrong despite having done courses etc. It's actually statistically safer not to do an avalanche course, I guess related to the risks you take or not based on what you think you know.

As you might remember from earlier in this thread, we're heading to Lyngen in March. Is there any glacial terrain where you would take harnesses and ropes?

I'm used to skiing in Chamonix where the glacial terrain contains lots of well hidden crevasses, however I understand that the shape of the slopes (and relative lack of cliffs) in the Lyngen Alps means that most people don't bother with traditional glacier kit.

I'll be touring with axe and crampons (conditions permitting we'll aim to do some of the more interesting / steep stuff) but hoping to leave the heavier gear at home.

[NRS]

Janosh said:

As you might remember from earlier in this thread, we're heading to Lyngen in March. Is there any glacial terrain where you would take harnesses and ropes?

I'm used to skiing in Chamonix where the glacial terrain contains lots of well hidden crevasses, however I understand that the shape of the slopes (and relative lack of cliffs) in the Lyngen Alps means that most people don't bother with traditional glacier kit.

I'll be touring with axe and crampons (conditions permitting we'll aim to do some of the more interesting / steep stuff) but hoping to leave the heavier gear at home.

I haven't done any ski touring with harnesses and ropes myself, and don't really know anyone who does. As you mention there is the terrain here, but in addition I think one of the reasons is there is so much choice where you don't need to take them. For some of the trips it is recommended, but I've seen reports from people who have done some of them without and say it's fine (not sure if it is luck, reading things correctly or people being conservative describing routes as they never know the skill of the people doing it).

What routes are you doing and I can have a search on some of the Norwegian websites and see what people recommend?

Just as a heads up it looks like we might be getting set up for a persistent weak layer this season. Some friends were out today and there's a facet snow layer and the forecast looks like the snow is now properly arriving for winter so it could bury it more deeply and thus reducing the chance of it being able to heal quickly.