British Airways - not impressed
Discussion
Sam All said:
djc206 said:
Also a slight case of apples and oranges. None of the ME3 flights are direct. Your BA flight gets you to Changi in 13 hours, your Emirates flights get you there in 16hrs with a hefty trek through terminal 3 at DXB, a disturbed sleep and the risk of a connection. At a similar price point BA are competitive for the reason of convenience alone.
This ^ Non stop= as it says on the tin.
schmalex said:
But from a price perspective, the Western airlines are competing directly with the ME3.
For you they are but, for the reasons I wrote they can't, so I'd still reason that it isn't competition from a level playing field.schmalex said:
For example, I'm travelling to Singapore on 14th Aug and am yet to book my ticket. It'll either be a J or F seat. Currently:
Emirates is £1,950 for J / £4,737 for F
BA is £5,305 for J (WTF!!!) / £7,244 for F
Looking at the same route, say, 3 months out to remove last minute price discrepancies gives:
Emirates is £2,049 for J / £4,455 for F
BA is £4,878 for J (WTF!!!) / £4,878 for F
It's already written, but those aren't like for like comparisons. You have to compare total travel time and convenience. What time does the Emirates flight arrive in Changi? Do you gain an extra working day as a result of the direct and probably shorter overall flying time with BA? What are the results of your company security advisors risk-assessments for each carrier? There's a reason why J & F are similar prices in your 2nd example and it's because some companies are filling the aircraft in J, possibly with flexible tickets.Emirates is £1,950 for J / £4,737 for F
BA is £5,305 for J (WTF!!!) / £7,244 for F
Looking at the same route, say, 3 months out to remove last minute price discrepancies gives:
Emirates is £2,049 for J / £4,455 for F
BA is £4,878 for J (WTF!!!) / £4,878 for F
Companies like BA make available all of their internal safety data to allow large multi-nationals to assess the safest carriers on which to place their staff. This data is a result of a just reporting culture and flight data monitoring equipment which is shared in full. It may surprise you to know that this isn't always the case. This all has a cost attached, but certainly has a perceived value to large companies when deciding which airline to use.
schmalex said:
Either way you look at it, BA offers an inferior product to that offered by the ME3 at a price that is, at best, equivalent and at worst significantly more expensive.I understand the arguments regarding a reduced operating cost burden enjoyed by the ME3, but at the end of the day, they are in competition for customers so either need to offer a product that is higher quality, better value or lower price. Sadly, BA appear to struggle to compete on any of these terms...
I agree if your judgement of the product relies solely on seat design, space and food and drink offerings. But, I believe that are other things which BA's customers value just as much and they don't come cheap. You can certainly argue the £value, but from a different perspective to the one you hold; the price and quality of the cabin product are unachievable via direct competition for BA, given the UK's and EU's irksome working, living and pension protections in addition to government taxation and regulation.schmalex said:
I travel a lot and, so far this year, have traveled 42 sectors over 6 hours in either J or F seats, meaning we've spent a lot on flights. I'd love to travel BA and support my "national" airline but simply can't justify either the price or the value offered for the price paid.
Of course I respect your choices and your reasons for making them. I'm not trying to convince you or anybody else to change your mind. I never fully believe the statement "I'd love to support my national airline." It's not a case of supporting your national airline IMO: it's a case of accepting that the level of regulation, taxation and employee protections we have in this country cost money. People will naturally try to avoid these things when there are direct, measurable, short term gains. I think it's worth remembering where the money savings are coming from and how they're achieved: they're definitely out of sight, but they shouldn't be out of mind.Edited by pushthebutton on Friday 29th July 13:08
el stovey said:
Wow loads of BA employees on this thread.
No wonder their costs are so high with such a big workforce.
When are they going to fix this - been out of service since April.No wonder their costs are so high with such a big workforce.
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schmalex said:
^^^ All good, fair points
If BA cost in, I'll use them for the following trip to S.E Asia in mid September to give them a go.
The reality is you'll most likely be disappointed.If BA cost in, I'll use them for the following trip to S.E Asia in mid September to give them a go.
If Emirates works for you and you like it then there's probably no reason to change. I just wanted to point out that it's not that BA are unwilling to compete, it's that they're unable to compete with the ME3's hard product due to an unmatchable cost base. The only added value they can offer is in the soft product, the direct routings out of London and the favourable flight timings and connections. If customers don't place a perceived value on these things then BA have little extra to give.
el stovey said:
Wow loads of BA employees on this thread.
No wonder their costs are so high with such a big workforce.
It could be just me posting a lot!No wonder their costs are so high with such a big workforce.
No charge.
pushthebutton said:
schmalex said:
But from a price perspective, the Western airlines are competing directly with the ME3.
For you they are but, for the reasons I wrote they can't, so I'd still reason that it isn't competition from a level playing field.schmalex said:
For example, I'm travelling to Singapore on 14th Aug and am yet to book my ticket. It'll either be a J or F seat. Currently:
Emirates is £1,950 for J / £4,737 for F
BA is £5,305 for J (WTF!!!) / £7,244 for F
Looking at the same route, say, 3 months out to remove last minute price discrepancies gives:
Emirates is £2,049 for J / £4,455 for F
BA is £4,878 for J (WTF!!!) / £4,878 for F
It's already written, but those aren't like for like comparisons. You have to compare total travel time and convenience. What time does the Emirates flight arrive in Changi? Do you gain an extra working day as a result of the direct and probably shorter overall flying time with BA? What are the results of your company security advisors risk-assessments for each carrier? There's a reason why J & F are similar prices in your 2nd example and it's because some companies are filling the aircraft in J, possibly with flexible tickets.Emirates is £1,950 for J / £4,737 for F
BA is £5,305 for J (WTF!!!) / £7,244 for F
Looking at the same route, say, 3 months out to remove last minute price discrepancies gives:
Emirates is £2,049 for J / £4,455 for F
BA is £4,878 for J (WTF!!!) / £4,878 for F
Companies like BA make available all of their internal safety data to allow large multi-nationals to assess the safest carriers on which to place their staff. This data is a result of a just reporting culture and flight data monitoring equipment which is shared in full. It may surprise you to know that this isn't always the case. This all has a cost attached, but certainly has a perceived value to large companies when deciding which airline to use.
schmalex said:
Either way you look at it, BA offers an inferior product to that offered by the ME3 at a price that is, at best, equivalent and at worst significantly more expensive.I understand the arguments regarding a reduced operating cost burden enjoyed by the ME3, but at the end of the day, they are in competition for customers so either need to offer a product that is higher quality, better value or lower price. Sadly, BA appear to struggle to compete on any of these terms...
I agree if your judgement of the product relies solely on seat design, space and food and drink offerings. But, I believe that are other things which BA's customers value just as much and they don't come cheap. You can certainly argue the £value, but from a different perspective to the one you hold; the price and quality of the cabin product are unachievable via direct competition for BA, given the UK's and EU's irksome working, living and pension protections in addition to government taxation and regulation.schmalex said:
I travel a lot and, so far this year, have traveled 42 sectors over 6 hours in either J or F seats, meaning we've spent a lot on flights. I'd love to travel BA and support my "national" airline but simply can't justify either the price or the value offered for the price paid.
Of course I respect your choices and your reasons for making them. I'm not trying to convince you or anybody else to change your mind. I never fully believe the statement "I'd love to support my national airline." It's not a case of supporting your national airline IMO: it's a case of accepting that the level of regulation, taxation and employee protections we have in this country cost money. People will naturally try to avoid these things when there are direct, measurable, short term gains. I think it's worth remembering where the money savings are coming from and how they're achieved: they're definitely out of sight, but they shouldn't be out of mind.Edited by pushthebutton on Friday 29th July 13:08
I'm not sure what the 'different product' it is that they are offering, but it's not a good product. It is at best, a below average product.
shopper150 said:
Wow. If they do all this why don't they provide consistently clean planes? Surely companies would be interested in that for their staff. How about the miserable cabin crew who allegedly 'fly to serve'. And a few pence on some decent food wouldn't go a miss. I'm sure companies and private travellers are interested in basic hygiene etc and some decent food. BA hygiene and good are amongst the worst I experience anywhere (and by that I don't just mean on airline travel. I mean anywhere).
I'm not sure what the 'different product' it is that they are offering, but it's not a good product. It is at best, a below average product.
Sounds like it's not the airline for you then. It's probably best to avoid which I'm sure you already do. I'm not sure what the 'different product' it is that they are offering, but it's not a good product. It is at best, a below average product.
shopper150 said:
Wow. If they do all this why don't they provide consistently clean planes? Surely companies would be interested in that for their staff. How about the miserable cabin crew who allegedly 'fly to serve'. And a few pence on some decent food wouldn't go a miss. I'm sure companies and private travellers are interested in basic hygiene etc and some decent food. BA hygiene and good are amongst the worst I experience anywhere (and by that I don't just mean on airline travel. I mean anywhere).
I'm not sure what the 'different product' it is that they are offering, but it's not a good product. It is at best, a below average product.
There's no excuse for aircraft being dirtyI'm not sure what the 'different product' it is that they are offering, but it's not a good product. It is at best, a below average product.
My sister is BA cabin crew, from talking to her I kind of understand why they can be miserable, the old ones are on gold plated contracts so are waiting out their pensions having fallen out of love with the job years ago, the young ones are paid pennies and they're consistently understaffed. Having flown to Vegas with BA before I think the crew did well not to kill anyone, grumpy was reasonable on that flight.
You've also not experienced miserable until you've flown Emirates with a majority eastern european crew. Christ I think if any of those girls had tried to smile their faces would have cracked.
I used BA to go to New York in March, had a nice new plane on the way out, decent sized TV ect.
On the way back it looked to be a plane heading for the scrapyard, TV screens were intermittent, some seats torn just in a terrible state.
Flight was delayed due to a technical issue on the way home also. Just wasn't over impressed with BA.
Flew Emirates to Dubai last year and it was perfect, but i see what you mean about the staff, smiling is not their strong point.
Used Emirates for Maldives also for my honeymoon last year and again perfect even after the flight change to a smaller plane for the Dubai to Male trip.
Doing it again in 4 weeks with Emirates to Maldives and look forward to it.
On the way back it looked to be a plane heading for the scrapyard, TV screens were intermittent, some seats torn just in a terrible state.
Flight was delayed due to a technical issue on the way home also. Just wasn't over impressed with BA.
Flew Emirates to Dubai last year and it was perfect, but i see what you mean about the staff, smiling is not their strong point.
Used Emirates for Maldives also for my honeymoon last year and again perfect even after the flight change to a smaller plane for the Dubai to Male trip.
Doing it again in 4 weeks with Emirates to Maldives and look forward to it.
swerni said:
I've heard the weather aint great this time of year, other than that....
Not quite. Have been to the keys a few times in August, so know from experience...Few hot showers a day, nothing to be worried about. The odd spectacular storm to boot too. Quite looking forward to it. Currently 32 degrees out there..2.5 hours late coming back from Madeira last night (apparently the loaded the plane at Gatwick, found the toilets weren't working, and had to transfer everyone and all the luggage to a new plane), and then they managed to break the handle off my suitcase and it seems dump it in a puddle somewhere between the aircraft and the baggage carousel. And the Mrs wasn't happy as they'd run out of tonic by the time the trolley got to us so she couldn't have a G&T
Flight to Schiphol this morning was about half an hour late. Back to Easyjet next week.
Flight to Schiphol this morning was about half an hour late. Back to Easyjet next week.
RizzoTheRat said:
2.5 hours late coming back from Madeira last night (apparently the loaded the plane at Gatwick, found the toilets weren't working, and had to transfer everyone and all the luggage to a new plane), and then they managed to break the handle off my suitcase and it seems dump it in a puddle somewhere between the aircraft and the baggage carousel. And the Mrs wasn't happy as they'd run out of tonic by the time the trolley got to us so she couldn't have a G&T
Flight to Schiphol this morning was about half an hour late. Back to Easyjet next week.
By contrast my friends were flying to Mumbai yesterday with etihad from Edinburgh supposedly at 0830 ish. The plane went tech and they were told the flight would leave at 2300, in the end Etihad rebooked them onto BA insisting they had to fly to Mumbai rather than Delhi where they needed to be thanks to a missed connection. My friend phoned BA who switched them onto the Delhi flight, when they subsequently checked in BA had also put them in Club the whole way. BA 3 Etihad 0 in this instance.Flight to Schiphol this morning was about half an hour late. Back to Easyjet next week.
djc206 said:
By contrast my friends were flying to Mumbai yesterday with etihad from Edinburgh supposedly at 0830 ish. The plane went tech and they were told the flight would leave at 2300, in the end Etihad rebooked them onto BA insisting they had to fly to Mumbai rather than Delhi where they needed to be thanks to a missed connection. My friend phoned BA who switched them onto the Delhi flight, when they subsequently checked in BA had also put them in Club the whole way. BA 3 Etihad 0 in this instance.
I had an issue with Etihad a few months ago following having to cancel a flight due to being taken into hospital. In the end Etihad did an aweseom job sorting the issue out. However on most recent trip the chauffeur didnt turn up and I almost missed my flight. I mentioned it at check in and i had a customer service person at every step of journey making sure I was ok with compensation and loads of bonus miles.However I tried Emirates in first on way back from one of my trips and thought they had improved loads from previous trips.
And nervously now got a flight to Phoenix on BA from London at end of month in First and am now dreading it. Always managed to avoid BA in the past.
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