The death of the slow car
Discussion
Let me preface this post by saying that I am not at all claiming that my car is fast, sporting or in any way a performance car. It's a five door family car.
That said it has 138bhp and only weighs about 1300kg - so with me in it, it has roughly 100bhp/tonne. It has a 0-60 time of 8.6 seconds, according to Parkers.
When I were a wee lad, they were decent figures - I've always thought that a car gets 'fun' at around 100bhp/tonne, and a sub 9 second 0-60 used to be pretty rapid. On paper it's got similar performance to my Alfa, and I used to be able to leave most cars behind in that.
I've noticed now though that I can hardly leave anything behind. I got into a bit of a drag race out of a roundabout the other day, onto a NSL, straight dual carriageway, and could keep up with (but not get past) a Skoda Roomster - and this seems to be a common thing - if I thrash the thing I can keep up with very mundane cars when the other driver is pressing on, but it doesn't effortlessly overwhelm anything like the Alfa did.
So - has the diesel engine, with it's low down torque, made pretty much every car what once would have been considered 'quite quick' at normal road speeds? Or is my car (full service history, last serviced in November) shagged?
That said it has 138bhp and only weighs about 1300kg - so with me in it, it has roughly 100bhp/tonne. It has a 0-60 time of 8.6 seconds, according to Parkers.
When I were a wee lad, they were decent figures - I've always thought that a car gets 'fun' at around 100bhp/tonne, and a sub 9 second 0-60 used to be pretty rapid. On paper it's got similar performance to my Alfa, and I used to be able to leave most cars behind in that.
I've noticed now though that I can hardly leave anything behind. I got into a bit of a drag race out of a roundabout the other day, onto a NSL, straight dual carriageway, and could keep up with (but not get past) a Skoda Roomster - and this seems to be a common thing - if I thrash the thing I can keep up with very mundane cars when the other driver is pressing on, but it doesn't effortlessly overwhelm anything like the Alfa did.
So - has the diesel engine, with it's low down torque, made pretty much every car what once would have been considered 'quite quick' at normal road speeds? Or is my car (full service history, last serviced in November) shagged?
I agree, everything seems to be rapid. Those bloody vans drivers fly around all over the place in their large transit sized vans. I guess we've just got use to more and more performance so we expect a minimum of 0-60 of 7-8 seconds in a family wagon.
I reckon the modern diesel turbo has made everybody a traffic light racer - easily.
I reckon the modern diesel turbo has made everybody a traffic light racer - easily.
The goalposts have moved. There are still relatively quick cars and relatively slow ones.
2017 Tesla Model S P100D 'Ludicrous Plus' Upgrade. 0..60 time 2.3 seconds. Quarter mile 10.5 seconds.
That is fk me fast and no doubt about it.
Out of petrol cars you need a Bugatti Veyron to beat it. A Tesla (despite being expensive) is a good deal cheaper...
2017 Tesla Model S P100D 'Ludicrous Plus' Upgrade. 0..60 time 2.3 seconds. Quarter mile 10.5 seconds.
That is fk me fast and no doubt about it.
Out of petrol cars you need a Bugatti Veyron to beat it. A Tesla (despite being expensive) is a good deal cheaper...
Yes those are very average figures these days. My 2006 Jeep Grand Cherokee diesel has very similar figures, 0-60 in 8.7s and just under 100bhp/ton, it feels plenty quick enough.
IMO you really don't need very much power on the road, after about 100bhp/ton it gets ever more difficult to actually ever use it all. The PH pub stat heroes will tell you that my MR2 Roadster with 138bhp at 975kg is slow but it's a rare and fleeting moment when I can use even that and it certainly doesn't feel slow. I like monstrous petrol engines more than most but they don't actually gain you any real world advantage, just an irrational mechanical satisfaction.
IMO you really don't need very much power on the road, after about 100bhp/ton it gets ever more difficult to actually ever use it all. The PH pub stat heroes will tell you that my MR2 Roadster with 138bhp at 975kg is slow but it's a rare and fleeting moment when I can use even that and it certainly doesn't feel slow. I like monstrous petrol engines more than most but they don't actually gain you any real world advantage, just an irrational mechanical satisfaction.
I remember standing at the school bus stop, watching cars going past, and slowing down for a bend, thinking "you know, when I'm grown up and driving, and all that, cars will be coming along here at about 200MPH, and prob'ly slowing down a bit for that bend".
My younger self would probably have been slightly disappointed in the progress made in that regard.
My younger self would probably have been slightly disappointed in the progress made in that regard.
gert biggens said:
I remember standing at the school bus stop, watching cars going past, and slowing down for a bend, thinking "you know, when I'm grown up and driving, and all that, cars will be coming along here at about 200MPH, and prob'ly slowing down a bit for that bend".
My younger self would probably have been slightly disappointed in the progress made in that regard.
These days, kids stand at the school bus stop, watching cars going past, thinking "when I'm grown up I"m going to do all I can to stop people from driving because it destroys the planet". My younger self would probably have been slightly disappointed in the progress made in that regard.
Bah!
There always will be desperately slow cars : there will always be a place for city cars for folks who don't want performance.
But in general I agree, bhp figures keep going up. The average car now has bhp figures of a '70s supercar, and powerfully-built company directors have their pick of 500/600bhp monsters.
Older cars felt faster. Modern cars despite the power figures have become a transport device laden down with so much soud-deadening and connectivity. Instead of feeling like a mechanical device connected to the road, the sales-pitch might as well be for your living-room sofa combined with your home entertainment package.
But in general I agree, bhp figures keep going up. The average car now has bhp figures of a '70s supercar, and powerfully-built company directors have their pick of 500/600bhp monsters.
Older cars felt faster. Modern cars despite the power figures have become a transport device laden down with so much soud-deadening and connectivity. Instead of feeling like a mechanical device connected to the road, the sales-pitch might as well be for your living-room sofa combined with your home entertainment package.
As average 0-60 times fall, it gets more and more difficult to "leave someone for dust".
Back in the day, when a quick-ish hatch say hit 60 in ten or 11 secs (and took something like 30 sec to get to 100) if you had something fast, say a 5 sec car, then your car was fast enough to pull out a decent gap on the road, in the short time you have.
In 2017, when boggo family cars are in the 7's and often 6s now, even your 4sec car is not that much quicker. ime, you need twice and preferrerably 3 or 4 times more power to really leave another car behind, and the more power you have, the harder it is to deploy it legally / safely.
it also makes the driver much more important. Delay by a sec off the lights, which, lets face it is no time at all on a human scale, and you're going to have a much much faster car to keep up, let alone pass the slower, but quicker starting car.
Back in the day, when a quick-ish hatch say hit 60 in ten or 11 secs (and took something like 30 sec to get to 100) if you had something fast, say a 5 sec car, then your car was fast enough to pull out a decent gap on the road, in the short time you have.
In 2017, when boggo family cars are in the 7's and often 6s now, even your 4sec car is not that much quicker. ime, you need twice and preferrerably 3 or 4 times more power to really leave another car behind, and the more power you have, the harder it is to deploy it legally / safely.
it also makes the driver much more important. Delay by a sec off the lights, which, lets face it is no time at all on a human scale, and you're going to have a much much faster car to keep up, let alone pass the slower, but quicker starting car.
I think everyone speccing tip/auto boxes on their cars has made a huge difference too.
the great unwashed would never downshift in a manual, just press the loud pedal in 5th and hope for the best.
Now when you try to pass them with only 100bhp/tonne, you're fked as the tip/autobox with drop them down 3-4 gears and give them the maximum get up and go to spoil your day.
never mind that your common garden bmw 320d is the best part of 200bhp too
I am a 100bhp/tonne guy, and Its starting to get pretty old pretty darn quick
the great unwashed would never downshift in a manual, just press the loud pedal in 5th and hope for the best.
Now when you try to pass them with only 100bhp/tonne, you're fked as the tip/autobox with drop them down 3-4 gears and give them the maximum get up and go to spoil your day.
never mind that your common garden bmw 320d is the best part of 200bhp too
I am a 100bhp/tonne guy, and Its starting to get pretty old pretty darn quick
It's nice to see a bit of reality now an again when it comes to discussing what constitutes fast.
There are still plenty of brand new cars on sale that take around 10 seconds , a fair number that take closer to 15 seconds to get to 60mph. These cars still have more than enough poke to get around without issue even when the car is fully loaded with extra weight, mostly due to modern engine power bands, better gearboxes and clever ECUs to ensure an engine is optimised far better than a 80s 1.0l carb fed motor ever was.
When you accept the majority of people are perfectly happy with a car that has around 100hp per tonne you start to realise why it is there are so many people who drive cars with nearer 200hp that can do 60 in 6-7seconds claim their car is significantly quicker than average.
However, on PH it seems that in less you can challenge super bikes you don't have a fast car
There are still plenty of brand new cars on sale that take around 10 seconds , a fair number that take closer to 15 seconds to get to 60mph. These cars still have more than enough poke to get around without issue even when the car is fully loaded with extra weight, mostly due to modern engine power bands, better gearboxes and clever ECUs to ensure an engine is optimised far better than a 80s 1.0l carb fed motor ever was.
When you accept the majority of people are perfectly happy with a car that has around 100hp per tonne you start to realise why it is there are so many people who drive cars with nearer 200hp that can do 60 in 6-7seconds claim their car is significantly quicker than average.
However, on PH it seems that in less you can challenge super bikes you don't have a fast car
Even a slow car can be driven in anger and seem fast in inappropriate settings such as a suburban street. I look at all the company directors driving their RRS in anger and think how pathetic they are when their car seemingly produces more noise than power or forward motion.
I think manufacturers have paid more attention to torque and gearing for real world driving.
I think manufacturers have paid more attention to torque and gearing for real world driving.
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