"There is no heaven; it's a fairy story"
Discussion
_rubinho_ said:
Famous Graham said:
Cock Womble 7 said:
dundarach said:
It's okay you don't have to start on me already...
No-one is "starting on you".But I'd love to hear your recollections on what happened to you before you were born.
Side order of whoosh parrot for Mr Graham.
I was suggesting that the idea of knowing what happens after your death is as plausible as knowing what happened before you were born.
Cock Womble 7 said:
_rubinho_ said:
Famous Graham said:
Cock Womble 7 said:
dundarach said:
It's okay you don't have to start on me already...
No-one is "starting on you".But I'd love to hear your recollections on what happened to you before you were born.
Side order of whoosh parrot for Mr Graham.
I was suggesting that the idea of knowing what happens after your death is as plausible as knowing what happened before you were born.
ETA plus of course, the fact that it takes months for your brain to develop enough to even HAVE memories.
Edited by Famous Graham on Monday 16th May 20:33
dundarach said:
It is however my right to believe and not to be made to defend myself to someone who can offer no other evidence to the contrary.
Well said. Regards
DefinitelynotGodSquad, but a huge supporter of the freedom to believe whatever works for you, without being persecuted by smart-arses or nutters from either extreme.
Cock Womble 7 said:
_rubinho_ said:
I don't think anybody is in doubt that Jesus the man existed.
Erm, I am.Famous Graham said:
No supersonic avians required, I got that. I think it's a bit hyperbolic though. Ok, so I'm no believer, but I can at least appreciate that prior to conception, there is nothing, zilch, nada, of you that exists. But after death there is. Even if you get burnt.
Really?If there's nothing "of you" before you were born and you're just magicked up out of air, what makes you think there will be something left after you've gone?
Cock Womble 7 said:
Famous Graham said:
No supersonic avians required, I got that. I think it's a bit hyperbolic though. Ok, so I'm no believer, but I can at least appreciate that prior to conception, there is nothing, zilch, nada, of you that exists. But after death there is. Even if you get burnt.
Really?If there's nothing "of you" before you were born and you're just magicked up out of air, what makes you think there will be something left after you've gone?
Cock Womble
I think the actual Jesus man certainly existed, forget his divinity for the moment. You have to agree, that sirley the whole Jesus figure wasn't created for entertainment purposes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_Jesus
Therefore if he did exist, what was he saying and were might I look for evidence of this.
Well for one, he met many of the prophesies from the old testament, now he could have read these and just acted them out, and he did indeed have access to them so yes could have done.
However why would so many follow him, why would the Roman empire be so frightened of him, why would so many follow him, for so long and across the whole planet.
Now yes it could be all in out heads, but if so, never before and never again has one man done so much.
Now the counter argunment is to look at other religions, Muslim, Jewish etc, but rather than contradict Jesus many agree to his existence and some will talk of him being a prophet etc.
Old testament from Jewish Torah or other way around.
So a world wide believe, coming from vary different people, most of which hate each other and yet often agreeing on single god, many listing Jesus in their texts.
Evidence that Turin Shroud had been repaired, blood plasma, anatomical accurate portrayal of a crucifixion, blood stains on the face that match a cloth aged to at least 500 years before the carbon date....
Lots of evidence - even before the faith stuff....
Make your own judgement based on the facts, don't just say balls to it, its a good read in it's own right....
I think the actual Jesus man certainly existed, forget his divinity for the moment. You have to agree, that sirley the whole Jesus figure wasn't created for entertainment purposes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_Jesus
Therefore if he did exist, what was he saying and were might I look for evidence of this.
Well for one, he met many of the prophesies from the old testament, now he could have read these and just acted them out, and he did indeed have access to them so yes could have done.
However why would so many follow him, why would the Roman empire be so frightened of him, why would so many follow him, for so long and across the whole planet.
Now yes it could be all in out heads, but if so, never before and never again has one man done so much.
Now the counter argunment is to look at other religions, Muslim, Jewish etc, but rather than contradict Jesus many agree to his existence and some will talk of him being a prophet etc.
Old testament from Jewish Torah or other way around.
So a world wide believe, coming from vary different people, most of which hate each other and yet often agreeing on single god, many listing Jesus in their texts.
Evidence that Turin Shroud had been repaired, blood plasma, anatomical accurate portrayal of a crucifixion, blood stains on the face that match a cloth aged to at least 500 years before the carbon date....
Lots of evidence - even before the faith stuff....
Make your own judgement based on the facts, don't just say balls to it, its a good read in it's own right....
Cock Womble 7 said:
_rubinho_ said:
I don't think anybody is in doubt that Jesus the man existed.
Erm, I am.That and the old testament, young earth, God created the earth and the Universe in 7 days and sits watching over us in heaven rubbish.
Cock Womble 7 said:
Famous Graham said:
I'm talking physical bits. Hence mentioning that I'm not a believer in the afterlife.
We're at cross purposes here then FG.Are you saying your "bits" will live on after your death?
But prior to conception & gestation there is nothing of those constituent particles. The zygotes (or is it gametes, I can never remember - sperm and egg anyway), are really nothing compared to what we become.
So I was suggesting that comparing something prior to its very /existence/ with its state after "just" sentience, was a bit unbalanced.
Edited by Famous Graham on Monday 16th May 20:44
dundarach said:
Old testament from Jewish Torah or other way around.
Problem is the Romans and the Jews of the time were rabid record keepers and yet records of the existance of an historic Jesus, outwith religious texts, are pretty much non existant - a few later insertions by Josephus notwithstanding.Turin Shroud - no give it a second look, ask why, and how, http://www.frtommylane.com/homilies/pilgrimage/sud... face cloth that matches perfectly the shroud and is historically proven to exist BEFORE the earliest carbon date - that at least says the carbon date was wrong...
As for other stuff Jesus did, none of use can prove this, but do what I did, start with the real Jesus - read what he said, none of this b
ks about Catholic, of Chruch of England or this denomination or that one....
Remember Jesus hated religious types, that's why they killed him, he didn't want to talk to people who had faith, he wanted to get amongst those without.
Read what he talked about.
That's all, sure listen to Hawking, guy is smart, but don't reject this body of work simply because some tt in a jumper and sideburns comes knocking on your door....
As for other stuff Jesus did, none of use can prove this, but do what I did, start with the real Jesus - read what he said, none of this b
ks about Catholic, of Chruch of England or this denomination or that one....Remember Jesus hated religious types, that's why they killed him, he didn't want to talk to people who had faith, he wanted to get amongst those without.
Read what he talked about.
That's all, sure listen to Hawking, guy is smart, but don't reject this body of work simply because some t
t in a jumper and sideburns comes knocking on your door....Dan_1981 said:
27 man sized pages I'm guessing at.
Pretty soon someone will mention
Noodles
Flying tea pots
Weighing your eternal soul
The ghost in Horas kitchen
Richard Dawkins
Not necessarily in that order.
Not that these threads are predictable or anything.
I made the mistake of starting one once.
They're like MG Rover threads, except with very slightly less hatred and predictability.Pretty soon someone will mention
Noodles
Flying tea pots
Weighing your eternal soul
The ghost in Horas kitchen
Richard Dawkins
Not necessarily in that order.
Not that these threads are predictable or anything.
I made the mistake of starting one once.
Awful, in a word.
As for Believers, there's no point arguing with them about the existence of Heaven. It's like trying to nail jelly to the ceiling. Instead, get them to imagine their afterlife in Heaven. It's all bonkers.
Which 'you' is it that goes to Heaven: 'you' as the optimistic young adult you used to be? Or 'you' as the cantankerous middle-aged grump you were when you died? Or 'you' as a senile-demetia-ridden husk of a person?
Are your dead children there? Unformed and immature? Do you meet them? Do you feel loss when you find your loved ones aren't there because Himself decided they were bad? If you die before the love of your life, and later remarry, what happens when you ascend to Heaven and meet her again. Does libido exist in heaven? What does everyone do all day? Is Worship required? Doesn't that non-stop Worship thing wear a bit thin after a few hundred years? Are there thrills to be had? Can you opt out if it's not what you expected? What if the afterlife is not worth living?
Or is that all moot - because your free will disappears upon your ascent to Heaven? Because if it does, you ('you' meaning who you are right now) clearly don't go to Heaven at all. What it is that is 'you' has been thrown away at the Pearly Gates, and only a pale shadow of your true self gets let in.
Doesn't sound like Heaven to me.
Which 'you' is it that goes to Heaven: 'you' as the optimistic young adult you used to be? Or 'you' as the cantankerous middle-aged grump you were when you died? Or 'you' as a senile-demetia-ridden husk of a person?
Are your dead children there? Unformed and immature? Do you meet them? Do you feel loss when you find your loved ones aren't there because Himself decided they were bad? If you die before the love of your life, and later remarry, what happens when you ascend to Heaven and meet her again. Does libido exist in heaven? What does everyone do all day? Is Worship required? Doesn't that non-stop Worship thing wear a bit thin after a few hundred years? Are there thrills to be had? Can you opt out if it's not what you expected? What if the afterlife is not worth living?
Or is that all moot - because your free will disappears upon your ascent to Heaven? Because if it does, you ('you' meaning who you are right now) clearly don't go to Heaven at all. What it is that is 'you' has been thrown away at the Pearly Gates, and only a pale shadow of your true self gets let in.
Doesn't sound like Heaven to me.
Papa Hotel said:
Whatever. I look forward to laughing at you fkers burning in the fires of Hell. Well, no, I'm not looking forward to it, I'm in no hurry to die yet but when I do, it'll give me something to laugh at.
Eh - what makes you think that you're going to Heaven? With your don't-care toilet-stink-up habits?kers burning in the fires of Hell. Well, no, I'm not looking forward to it, I'm in no hurry to die yet but when I do, it'll give me something to laugh at. Edited by 55allgold on Monday 16th May 22:05
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