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CBR JGWRR
5,078 posts
18 months
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TheHeretic said: Is the Vatican really that f  king stupid? Yes, it is.
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fluffnik
17,347 posts
96 months
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TwigtheWonderkid said: Never ever underestimate the vile nature of the catholic church. Just when you think the paedo, kiddy raping, nazi loving, manipulative, sexually repressed, corrupt, scumbag perverts can't sink any lower, they always manage to prove you wrong. It's difficult to see how being excommunicated could be regarded as anything but a source of pride...
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TheHeretic
68,019 posts
124 months
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fluffnik said: It's difficult to see how being excommunicated could be regarded as anything but a source of pride... They once excommunicated a Nun who reported abuse.
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Pesty
25,857 posts
125 months
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TheHeretic said: Come on god botherers defend this then " Church has not taken formal steps against the stepfather" How anybody can belive in this man made dog s t in 2012 amazes me. Talking of WW2 war crimes don't forget the italian had tehir own camps with full permission of the pope in one night 20k orthodox christians from serbia were killed. Croation and Italian troops went into Serbia and asked children to do the sign of the cross. If they did it the wrong way i.e not the roman catholic way they killed the children on teh spot The pope helped them escapse after the war
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TheHeretic
68,019 posts
124 months
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I thought the Vatican story would have garnered more discussion, to be honest. Does anyone think that people still going to their RC church, donating money, etc, is actually condoning these sorts of decisions? Do they support it, and of not, have they spoken to their church priest, etc?
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KB_S1
5,938 posts
98 months
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The mainstream news here doesn't seem to be covering the current vatican rumblings very much.
Why not? No idea, but there is some pretty strange stuff emerging once more.
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Gaspode
2,684 posts
65 months
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KB_S1 said: The mainstream news here doesn't seem to be covering the current vatican rumblings very much.
Why not? No idea, but there is some pretty strange stuff emerging once more. Such as?
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KB_S1
5,938 posts
98 months
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Gaspode said: Such as? Got to run just now, to a catholic church of all places but, there is a lot emerging about the corruption within the vati bank and the backhanders going on. HAve a search for vatican bank leaks. Will say more when back tonight!
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ewenm
24,454 posts
114 months
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TheHeretic said: I thought the Vatican story would have garnered more discussion, to be honest. Does anyone think that people still going to their RC church, donating money, etc, is actually condoning these sorts of decisions? Do they support it, and of not, have they spoken to their church priest, etc? I'd hope that any journalist when reporting on a statement from the catholic Church about gay marriage (for example) would ask the question of how the Church feels it can have any moral authority or influence over policy making when it believes this stuff is an appropriate response to child abuse. The reason it's generated no discussion here is that no-one can defend it and more tellingly, no-one is surprised by it.
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mattnunn
4,111 posts
30 months
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ewenm said: TheHeretic said: I thought the Vatican story would have garnered more discussion, to be honest. Does anyone think that people still going to their RC church, donating money, etc, is actually condoning these sorts of decisions? Do they support it, and of not, have they spoken to their church priest, etc? I'd hope that any journalist when reporting on a statement from the catholic Church about gay marriage (for example) would ask the question of how the Church feels it can have any moral authority or influence over policy making when it believes this stuff is an appropriate response to child abuse. The reason it's generated no discussion here is that no-one can defend it and more tellingly, no-one is surprised by it. Two wrongs don't make a right. This is obvious. Don't like the rules of the club, don't join, break the rules of the club, expect to be thrown out. The Catholic church is not canvassing for your membership, it's not an important influence on your culture or society (anymore). I don't get the obsession. Like all cultural memes, it will live or die, in the end, based on the paradigm of human experience, a true democracy, it will take generations though. FWIW I'm not catholic, or as oft stated on this thread religious, I do however oppose abortion.
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ewenm
24,454 posts
114 months
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mattnunn said: Two wrongs don't make a right.
This is obvious.
Don't like the rules of the club, don't join, break the rules of the club, expect to be thrown out.
The Catholic church is not canvassing for your membership, it's not an important influence on your culture or society (anymore). However the Church does appear to be given a platform to preach  from in the media with very little questioning of their authority/suitability to be making such moral pronouncements. I'd suggest that any club that has a rule that abortion is wrong but child abuse is not, has no right to expect its views to be aired by mainstream media.
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garycat
1,887 posts
79 months
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mattnunn said: ...
FWIW I'm not catholic, or as oft stated on this thread religious, I do however oppose abortion. Even for 9 year old rape victims?
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mattnunn
4,111 posts
30 months
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ewenm said: mattnunn said: Two wrongs don't make a right.
This is obvious.
Don't like the rules of the club, don't join, break the rules of the club, expect to be thrown out.
The Catholic church is not canvassing for your membership, it's not an important influence on your culture or society (anymore). However the Church does appear to be given a platform to preach from in the media with very little questioning of their authority/suitability to be making such moral pronouncements. I'd suggest that any club that has a rule that abortion is wrong but child abuse is not, has no right to expect its views to be aired by mainstream media. Not in the UK, not Catholic ones anyway, I bet off the top of your head you couldn't tell me the heirarchy of the Catholic church and it's members in the UK. You'll not find many media religious figures in the UK publicly supporting the brazillian church on this, infact there's a challenge for you, find me one, find me any outrageous Catholic or CofE/Anglican main stream media UK based commentators
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mattnunn
4,111 posts
30 months
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garycat said: mattnunn said: ...
FWIW I'm not catholic, or as oft stated on this thread religious, I do however oppose abortion. Even for 9 year old rape victims? It's the nature of moral debate that we can always find excuses for doing things that are wrong, in this case it happens to be a factual scenario, but we can imagine hypotheticals, realistic ones, that would circumvent the path of normal agreed moral decision making. The abortion debate simply boils down to at what point you think it's acceptable to terminate human life without their consent. So we don't know the situation here, but imagine the 9 year old was 34 weeks into pregnancy before realising, not an unrealistic scenario, would abortion be acceptable? What if she's in labour, would it be acceptable to terminate? What's the real "academic" moral difference between terminating a pregnancy at 4 weeks or 34 weeks?
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Pesty
25,857 posts
125 months
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mattnunn said: garycat said: mattnunn said: ...
FWIW I'm not catholic, or as oft stated on this thread religious, I do however oppose abortion. Even for 9 year old rape victims? It's the nature of moral debate that we can always find excuses for doing things that are wrong, in this case it happens to be a factual scenario, but we can imagine hypotheticals, realistic ones, that would circumvent the path of normal agreed moral decision making. The abortion debate simply boils down to at what point you think it's acceptable to terminate human life without their consent. So we don't know the situation here, but imagine the 9 year old was 34 weeks into pregnancy before realising, not an unrealistic scenario, would abortion be acceptable? What if she's in labour, would it be acceptable to terminate? What's the real "academic" moral difference between terminating a pregnancy at 4 weeks or 34 weeks? If god didn't want this innocent aborted he should have stopped her step father from raping her? stillaginst abortion even if going through with the pregancy could cause death to the 9 year old mother? What about the mothers feelings if going through with it for the rest of her life she will know there is her child roaming around. Why are you not critical of kicking the victims out but not the abusers. There is no justification at all for the actions of the church and you know it.
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mattnunn
4,111 posts
30 months
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Pesty said: mattnunn said: garycat said: mattnunn said: ...
FWIW I'm not catholic, or as oft stated on this thread religious, I do however oppose abortion. Even for 9 year old rape victims? It's the nature of moral debate that we can always find excuses for doing things that are wrong, in this case it happens to be a factual scenario, but we can imagine hypotheticals, realistic ones, that would circumvent the path of normal agreed moral decision making. The abortion debate simply boils down to at what point you think it's acceptable to terminate human life without their consent. So we don't know the situation here, but imagine the 9 year old was 34 weeks into pregnancy before realising, not an unrealistic scenario, would abortion be acceptable? What if she's in labour, would it be acceptable to terminate? What's the real "academic" moral difference between terminating a pregnancy at 4 weeks or 34 weeks? If god didn't want this innocent aborted he should have stopped her step father from raping her? stillaginst abortion even if going through with the pregancy could cause death to the 9 year old mother? What about the mothers feelings if going through with it for the rest of her life she will know there is her child roaming around. Why are you not critical of kicking the victims out but not the abusers. There is no justification at all for the actions of the church and you know it. I'm not critical of any private members club selecting their membership, infact I'd be strongly in favour of my local golf club reverting back to men only! I doubt very much you have strong heart felt concern for this girl, seems to me like your just seizing on this as an opportunity to flog your hobby horse, which is fair enough, but stop the righteous indignation. Women do (increasingly less) suffer in child birth, if we were to completely mitigate the risks involved in the continuation of our species we'd end up with some kind of 1984 style ex utero birthing process. The aethiest would love that I know, as would Pol Pot, Stalin and their bretheren. Unfortunately child birth is what women do, I thank goodness (nearly said God then) I am not one. It interests me mostly that the correct and rightful moral stance you have taken, seems to be entirely given by christian doctrine, which founded the ability for the enlightment to flourish, for with out the death of paganism we'd be surely still grubbing around in the dark ages, worshiping Thor and impregnating anything that moved. No?
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ewenm
24,454 posts
114 months
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mattnunn said: Not in the UK, not Catholic ones anyway, I bet off the top of your head you couldn't tell me the heirarchy of the Catholic church and it's members in the UK.
You'll not find many media religious figures in the UK publicly supporting the brazillian church on this, infact there's a challenge for you, find me one, find me any outrageous Catholic or CofE/Anglican main stream media UK based commentators That's my point. In the UK the Catholics will try to distance themselves from this debacle, but will be tarred with the same brush because they claim to align themselves with the Vatican, as do the Brazilian Church. Why don't they bite the bullet and set up the UK Catholic Church and cut their damaging ties with the Vatican and its protectorates? They seem to be so afraid of offending the Vatican that they tie themselves up in knots with justifications of blatantly immoral behaviour. I wish they would grow some balls, declare the Pope to be a charlatan (as in, not the mouthpiece of their god) and set off on their own journey of faith. You're right I can't name any high-ranking Catholics (or other religious group). A quick google would find plenty of BBC/Telegraph/Daily Mail links though I'm sure.
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Phil1
458 posts
151 months
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mattnunn said: <snip>
if we were to completely mitigate the risks involved in the continuation of our species we'd end up with some kind of 1984 style ex utero birthing process. The aethiest would love that I know, as would Pol Pot, Stalin and their bretheren.
<snip> You really are an odious cretin. You can't bring yourself to criticise the policy of an institution with the influence it has in Brazil, instead attempting to minimise the issue by likening it to a golf club. Or by claiming people are point scoring instead of actually being concerned about a 9 year old rape victim. Yet you're happy to make the above ludicrous assertion. Remember guys, atheists are like Pol Pot or Stalin, but the influential church and it's response to a 9 year old rape victim is like a golf club. Unbelievable...
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CBR JGWRR
5,078 posts
18 months
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That's been done already, for some 800 odd years at least. Probably earlier.
And a Roman Catholic church without Rome is sort of missing the point.
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TheHeretic
68,019 posts
124 months
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CBR JGWRR said: That's been done already, for some 800 odd years at least. Probably earlier.
And a Roman Catholic church without Rome is sort of missing the point. Have a look at attitudes to the churches free from Rome. The vast majority have actually gotten themselves into the 21st century, particularly on the issue of contraception. Rome, not so much. It is merely an example of what a joke the institute is, and says to me, at least, something about the people that continue to support the organization via donations, tithes, as well as go there every Sunday.
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