|
TwigtheWonderkid
6,043 posts
19 months
|
ChrisGB said: And yet in this violence free, full of sex world, there are 42 million abortions in one year, that is a lot of depriving of future life. Or maybe not. Abortion has been going on since the dawn of humanity. We don't have a choice between abortion and no abortion, the choice is between legal safe abortions and illegal unsafe ones. By allowing women legal safe abortions when they feel the time for a child isn't right, you preserve their fertility for future children. Illegal abortions can leave women infertile. I know someone who had an illegal abortion in the 60s when she was 18. She went on to marry her then boyfriend. A few yrs later when they wanted to have kids they couldn't They would have has 3 or 4. That's 4 lives denied because of no access to legal safe abortion.
|
|
|
Halb
17,853 posts
52 months
|
GilbertGrape said: Then I guess the question could read, where did the very first manufacturers of eggs come from, if not from an egg? Reproduction, every creature produces eggs, sometimes they pop out, sometimes not. The majority pop out. "The term "egg" is restricted to the animal kingdom, similar reproductive structures in other kingdoms are termed spores, or (in spermatophytes) seeds, see ovum." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egg_%28biology%29"Daniel Blackburn of Vanderbilt University and Howard Evans of Cornell point out that the evolutionary path to viviparity usually involved retaining eggs for longer and longer periods until they finally hatch within the female's body. Blackburn and Evans argue that egg retention would offer little advantage to birds, and several disadvantages. Among the latter are a loss of productivity -- since females obviously could not retain many eggs until they hatched -- and probably increased risk to the mother associated with the added burden of weight." http://stanford.edu/group/stanfordbirds/text/essay...
|
|
|
TheHeretic
67,933 posts
124 months
|
|
|
ChrisGB
897 posts
72 months
|
TwigtheWonderkid said: ChrisGB said: And yet in this violence free, full of sex world, there are 42 million abortions in one year, that is a lot of depriving of future life. Or maybe not. Abortion has been going on since the dawn of humanity. We don't have a choice between abortion and no abortion, the choice is between legal safe abortions and illegal unsafe ones. By allowing women legal safe abortions when they feel the time for a child isn't right, you preserve their fertility for future children. Illegal abortions can leave women infertile. I know someone who had an illegal abortion in the 60s when she was 18. She went on to marry her then boyfriend. A few yrs later when they wanted to have kids they couldn't They would have has 3 or 4. That's 4 lives denied because of no access to legal safe abortion. Sad story but look, not being able to get pregnant for whatever reason is nothing like deciding to end the pregnancy you have. There is always a choice, before sex, during sex, after sex, barring extreme circumstances, and there were not 42 million of those in 2008. If the time for a child isn't right, if an abortion is a certainty in event of pregnancy, they shouldn't be having sex. Otherwise, where is responsibility, where is facing up to consequences of your own actions? Should we just be infants where sex is involved? Is lust the only value?
|
|
|
TwigtheWonderkid
6,043 posts
19 months
|
ChrisGB said: TwigtheWonderkid said: ChrisGB said: And yet in this violence free, full of sex world, there are 42 million abortions in one year, that is a lot of depriving of future life. Or maybe not. Abortion has been going on since the dawn of humanity. We don't have a choice between abortion and no abortion, the choice is between legal safe abortions and illegal unsafe ones. By allowing women legal safe abortions when they feel the time for a child isn't right, you preserve their fertility for future children. Illegal abortions can leave women infertile. I know someone who had an illegal abortion in the 60s when she was 18. She went on to marry her then boyfriend. A few yrs later when they wanted to have kids they couldn't They would have has 3 or 4. That's 4 lives denied because of no access to legal safe abortion. Sad story but look, not being able to get pregnant for whatever reason is nothing like deciding to end the pregnancy you have. There is always a choice, before sex, during sex, after sex, barring extreme circumstances, and there were not 42 million of those in 2008. If the time for a child isn't right, if an abortion is a certainty in event of pregnancy, they shouldn't be having sex. Otherwise, where is responsibility, where is facing up to consequences of your own actions? Should we just be infants where sex is involved? Is lust the only value? Look, as an atheist I'm not happy about the numbers of abortions either. I think the catholic church, with it's global influence and it's negative attitude to sex education and contraception is a major contributor to the number of abortions worldwide. Perhaps if the catholic church distributed some of its obscene wealth to the millions of catholics living in obscene poverty, they might feel more able to keep their currently aborted kids. But my point is, right or wrong, abortion is here to stay. It can never be uninvented. Legal or illegal, abortions will take place. So I'll vote for legal abortions all day long. Anyone who wants to ban abortion seems to value the life of a part formed foetus above the life of the woman who is carrying it!
|
Advertisement
|
|
|
carmonk
7,910 posts
56 months
|
TwigtheWonderkid said: Look, as an atheist I'm not happy about the numbers of abortions either. I think the catholic church, with it's global influence and it's negative attitude to sex education and contraception is a major contributor to the number of abortions worldwide. Perhaps if the catholic church distributed some of its obscene wealth to the millions of catholics living in obscene poverty, they might feel more able to keep their currently aborted kids.
But my point is, right or wrong, abortion is here to stay. It can never be uninvented. Legal or illegal, abortions will take place. So I'll vote for legal abortions all day long. Anyone who wants to ban abortion seems to value the life of a part formed foetus above the life of the woman who is carrying it! Perhaps more relevanty, above the rights of the child itself to be born to parents who want it and are willing and able to take care of it. Calling for a ban on abortion is what people do to demonstrate their own grand morality when in fact they don't give stuff about anybody else.
|
|
|
CommanderJameson
20,674 posts
95 months
|
ChrisGB said: If the time for a child isn't right, if an abortion is a certainty in event of pregnancy, they shouldn't be having sex. Otherwise, where is responsibility, where is facing up to consequences of your own actions? Should we just be infants where sex is involved? Is lust the only value? Two questions. - What's other peoples' (consensual) sex lives got to do with you? (Trick question. The answer is "nothing whatsoever")
- What about pregnancy as a result of rape?
You know what's responsible? Bringing a child into the world when you can care for it and parent it properly. You know what's irresponsible? Bringing a child into the world when you can't.
|
|
|
TwigtheWonderkid
6,043 posts
19 months
|
It's worth considering that marsupials evolved with the ability to "abort" their own offspring when required.
Instead of carrying a child for months of gestation, a kangaroo gives birth to what is basically little more than an embryo, which then develops in an external pouch much as it would do internally in the womb, connected not by an umbilical cord but by permanent attachment to a nipple.
This is a neat trick, as in times of drought, when the mother decides she and the joey aren't going to make it, she can dump the joey, and survive to reproduce in the furture, when the conditions may be more favourable. Also, if she's being hunted, she can dump the joey to aid her getaway, whereas a heavily pregnant mammmal would get caught and mother and baby would die.
Abortion by any other name. As the joey being dumped hasn't reached the stage of development yet where a non marsupial would have given birth.
|
|
|
bikemonster
1,188 posts
110 months
|
TwigtheWonderkid said: Look, as an atheist I'm not happy about the numbers of abortions either. Except that the headline figures "40 million abortions", which I questioned earlier, when expressed as "per 1,000 women of child bearing age per annum" suddenly look a whole lot lower. There is a point here about the way we interpret numbers. A number of 40 million looks huge. And is. Millions are very large numbers. But humans number in the billions. And expressed as a ratio (per 1,000), that number suddenly doesn't look so huge anymore. Abortion as a fertility control measure isn't great; to suggest that every woman who has an abortion is irresponsible is over-simplification. A woman who regularly (and we can leave that definition aside for the moment) has abortions is being irresponsible, but I suspect fairly uncommon where safe and reliable contraception is available. Then again, the Catholic church isn't exactly crash hot on any form of contraception, which rather loses it the moral high ground as an anti-abortion campaigner because if you are lumping abortion and contraception together as mortal sins, it removes any moral distinction between them. Stop looking smug, guys, jerking off is every bit as bad!
|
|
|
Pesty
25,852 posts
125 months
|
In Scotland at the moment how enriched they must feel by having this colourful culture amongst them.
Picked up a copy of the Sunday Herald.
Muslim elders in crack down on cafe culture.
In Glasgows shisha bars both sexes mix freely. Muslim elders have launched an anti shisha cafe campain and lodged formal complaints with local authorities.
Such cafes are spreading fitna (chaos) by encourageing mixing of sexes family time and responsibilities are being neglected. Interaction between un married males and females is strcitly forbiden in Islam
I though it was only extremists that made women stay at home.
|
|
|
Halb
17,853 posts
52 months
|
ChrisGB said: Sad story but look, not being able to get pregnant for whatever reason is nothing like deciding to end the pregnancy you have.
There is always a choice, before sex, during sex, after sex, barring extreme circumstances, and there were not 42 million of those in 2008.
If the time for a child isn't right, if an abortion is a certainty in event of pregnancy, they shouldn't be having sex. Otherwise, where is responsibility, where is facing up to consequences of your own actions? Should we just be infants where sex is involved? Is lust the only value? "where is responsibility, where is facing up to consequences of your own actions", right there when the women has the abortion, that's the responsibility. If you don't like it, that's fine, but it has nothing to do with you, nor does the sex life of others..unless you're a voyeur.
|
|
|
carmonk
7,910 posts
56 months
|
|
|
IainT
8,012 posts
107 months
|
TheHeretic said: Some things about the US scare me. someone like Santorum possibly being president...
|
|
|
fluffnik
17,329 posts
96 months
|
TwigtheWonderkid said: ChrisGB said: And yet in this violence free, full of sex world, there are 42 million abortions in one year, that is a lot of depriving of future life. Or maybe not. Abortion has been going on since the dawn of humanity. We don't have a choice between abortion and no abortion, the choice is between legal safe abortions and illegal unsafe ones. There's still a good deal of infanticide going down too. Some of the things that reduce abortion rates include: - education
- secular society
- easily available contraception
What does not keep abortion rates low is the repressive enforcement of ignorant superstition...
|
|
|
Halb
17,853 posts
52 months
|
fluffnik said: There's still a good deal of infanticide going down too.
Some of the things that reduce abortion rates include: When you use the term 'infanticide' do you mean abortion?
|
|
|
fluffnik
17,329 posts
96 months
|
ChrisGB said: fluffnik said: We have the means, if we act responsibly, to ensure that the only consequences of sex are big grins, sparkling eyes and perhaps a little extra laundry. Of course women bear the brunt but they are not acting alone. The men need to face the consequences too. If we educate young people without lying to them there will be far fewer unwanted consequences - infection, unplanned conception, abortion, needless guilt - and a lot more joyous recreational sex. Win, win. ChrisGB said: The what was it 42 million abortions in one year worldwide suggest a lot of irresponsibility then. Proportionally abortions are far more common in ill educated religiously repressed populations. The same populations which often also suffer high levels of HIV, rape, infant mortality... ChrisGB said: fluffnik said: There is a distinct correlation between sexual repression and violence, I suspect that if we were all honest and open far more joy would be generated than religion has ever managed... And yet in this violence free, full of sex world, there are 42 million abortions in one year, that is a lot of depriving of future life. There is no correlation between  Free Love/ and high abortion rates, indeed, quite the reverse. ChrisGB said: fluffnik said: Wealth and limiting population go hand in hand. Perhaps we can leave it at saying that the rich people in the west who are free to shag whenever they like and abort whenever they like shouldn't make any demands on population to poorer countries until those poorer countries have become rich too and free to have fewer kids if they then wish. Here in rich, educated, secular Europe we seem to manage to combine lots of responsible, honest, guilt free shagging with low abortion rates. ...and if you look at America there is a definite correlation between rates of religiosity and abortion. ChrisGB said: Those advocating population control or reduction should of course set the example. We tend to. ChrisGB said: Abortions in New York last year were 50% higher among immigrant groups than among whites, so it is already a form of population control on the poorest. This is not how the world should be. Poorest, least educated, most religious...
|
|
|
KB_S1
5,938 posts
98 months
|
Pesty said: In Scotland at the moment how enriched they must feel by having this colourful culture amongst them.
Picked up a copy of the Sunday Herald.
Muslim elders in crack down on cafe culture.
In Glasgows shisha bars both sexes mix freely. Muslim elders have launched an anti shisha cafe campain and lodged formal complaints with local authorities.
Such cafes are spreading fitna (chaos) by encourageing mixing of sexes family time and responsibilities are being neglected. Interaction between un married males and females is strcitly forbiden in Islam
I though it was only extremists that made women stay at home. If the dark ages desirers think that public authorities in Scotland will respond to a request to stop men/woman having equal rights to cultural opportunities they are going to be very disappointed.
|
|
|
fluffnik
17,329 posts
96 months
|
Halb said: fluffnik said: There's still a good deal of infanticide going down too.
Some of the things that reduce abortion rates include: When you use the term 'infanticide' do you mean abortion? No I mean killing or abandoning after birth, typically the youngest girl children, especially in times of shortage.
|
|
|
fluffnik
17,329 posts
96 months
|
ChrisGB said: Just run with that idea then. How do you account for the warmth of the sun on your face? Goodness is a lack of evil? I need a consistent philosophy here, I hope you can help. For goodness to thrive, it is enough for bad people to do nothing, is that how the world works? The warmth is down to nuclear fusion, we find it pleasant because it keeps our bodies running nicely on less food. Goodness is almost certainly a prerequisite of civilisation for which there are positive evolutionary drivers, again we find it pleasant because it's good for us.
|
|
|
Pesty
25,852 posts
125 months
|
KB_S1 said: If the dark ages desirers think that public authorities in Scotland will respond to a request to stop men/woman having equal rights to cultural opportunities they are going to be very disappointed. sorry but they are clamping down. The Muslim elders are using the laws they don't like to close down the shop. 1 they break indoor smoking laws 2 they are complaining about parking and noise any complaint they can to the council. 3 they are not registered businesses and therefor illigal anyway from what I gather so paying no taxes either. non of that bothers them of course. they are using mans laws in anyway possible. Funny how there is no law but gods law until they need it. Also funny how this society withing our society would set up illigal smoking dens flouting our laws only to be grassed up because they let women in.
|
|
