"There is no heaven; it's a fairy story"
Discussion
mattnunn said:
They're not seperate? You mean to say they're necessary for each other? It's easy to say the universe could exist without humans - but to say humans could exist without the universe is tricky, I conceed. But science gave us the multiverse via Everret, it was welcomed (perhaps not at first), siezed upon, a great piece of wisdom indeed. Knowledge. If we exist in this universe and there are others, we could exist in them too or instead.
No, I mean to say that humans, therefore humanity are a part of the universe, we are not separate from the universe. The multiverse is another argument, but even then, your premise if false. First you have to show that humanity is separate from the universe. The floor is yours.
TheHeretic said:
mattnunn said:
They're not seperate? You mean to say they're necessary for each other? It's easy to say the universe could exist without humans - but to say humans could exist without the universe is tricky, I conceed. But science gave us the multiverse via Everret, it was welcomed (perhaps not at first), siezed upon, a great piece of wisdom indeed. Knowledge. If we exist in this universe and there are others, we could exist in them too or instead.
No, I mean to say that humans, therefore humanity are a part of the universe, we are not separate from the universe. The multiverse is another argument, but even then, your premise if false. First you have to show that humanity is separate from the universe. The floor is yours.
The question is whether my butty box necessitates my apple or my apple necessitates my butty box.
fluffnik said:
IainT said:
While I've never been part of the catholic church (an organisation that is one of the clearest examples of a work of man and not the divine) I was, for a number of years a very active Christian and spent a year at a missionary training school and a further few years carrying out stealth indoctrination of young people. The sad thing is I didn't even realise it at the time. I've read and fully immersed myself within the bible. Meditated, prayed and fasted.
Jings!How many of us here are converts in either direction?
I've never had any religious faith, indeed even at a very early age I found religion incredible.
mattnunn said:
TheHeretic said:
mattnunn said:
They're not seperate? You mean to say they're necessary for each other? It's easy to say the universe could exist without humans - but to say humans could exist without the universe is tricky, I conceed. But science gave us the multiverse via Everret, it was welcomed (perhaps not at first), siezed upon, a great piece of wisdom indeed. Knowledge. If we exist in this universe and there are others, we could exist in them too or instead.
No, I mean to say that humans, therefore humanity are a part of the universe, we are not separate from the universe. The multiverse is another argument, but even then, your premise if false. First you have to show that humanity is separate from the universe. The floor is yours.
The question is whether my butty box necessitates my apple or my apple necessitates my butty box.
te.mattnunn said:
TheHeretic said:
mattnunn said:
They're not seperate? You mean to say they're necessary for each other? It's easy to say the universe could exist without humans - but to say humans could exist without the universe is tricky, I conceed. But science gave us the multiverse via Everret, it was welcomed (perhaps not at first), siezed upon, a great piece of wisdom indeed. Knowledge. If we exist in this universe and there are others, we could exist in them too or instead.
No, I mean to say that humans, therefore humanity are a part of the universe, we are not separate from the universe. The multiverse is another argument, but even then, your premise if false. First you have to show that humanity is separate from the universe. The floor is yours.
The question is whether my butty box necessitates my apple or my apple necessitates my butty box.
You've expressed the desire for humanity and the universe to be linked, this is the roor of theology, science (physics at least) attempts to explain the universe outside of the human experience, using human tools admittedly.
TheHeretic said:
mattnunn said:
We are within? My apple is within my butty box, it is not a part of my butty box, it is seperate.
The question is whether my butty box necessitates my apple or my apple necessitates my butty box.
OK then. Define universe? Define humanity?The question is whether my butty box necessitates my apple or my apple necessitates my butty box.
Now think....
mattnunn said:
Further more, The heretic, I'm suprised, you seem to be warming to the other side.
You've expressed the desire for humanity and the universe to be linked, this is the roor of theology, science (physics at least) attempts to explain the universe outside of the human experience, using human tools admittedly.
Warmed? Not at all. We are linked. Our brains are constructed of matter, and that matter is part of the universe. Remember the definition of universe which you have avoided answering, instead asking me to think. I do a lot of thinking, and unless you have a woo-ridden definition of universe that only applies to whatever argument you happen to be peddling at the time.You've expressed the desire for humanity and the universe to be linked, this is the roor of theology, science (physics at least) attempts to explain the universe outside of the human experience, using human tools admittedly.
So no, you tell us.
You define universe. The dictionary defines it as all matter, galaxies, planets, everything. Now assuming humans are part of this universe, I fail to see how we could be separate from it, certainly not as we are looking at it where we are, which is as part of the universe.
As for humanity, you will have to define that as well. Is it all of human culture, all humans, or something else. Define it, and we can continue. You skipping around simple questions prompted by your "assume that..." statement is not going to get around this fact.
Not a knee jerk response, an obvious response.
TheHeretic said:
Warmed? Not at all. We are linked. Our brains are constructed of matter, and that matter is part of the universe. Remember the definition of universe which you have avoided answering, instead asking me to think. I do a lot of thinking, and unless you have a woo-ridden definition of universe that only applies to whatever argument you happen to be peddling at the time.
So no, you tell us.
You define universe. The dictionary defines it as all matter, galaxies, planets, everything. Now assuming humans are part of this universe, I fail to see how we could be separate from it, certainly not as we are looking at it where we are, which is as part of the universe.
As for humanity, you will have to define that as well. Is it all of human culture, all humans, or something else. Define it, and we can continue. You skipping around simple questions prompted by your "assume that..." statement is not going to get around this fact.
Not a knee jerk response, an obvious response.
I think I summed it [matt's separation argument] up better.So no, you tell us.
You define universe. The dictionary defines it as all matter, galaxies, planets, everything. Now assuming humans are part of this universe, I fail to see how we could be separate from it, certainly not as we are looking at it where we are, which is as part of the universe.
As for humanity, you will have to define that as well. Is it all of human culture, all humans, or something else. Define it, and we can continue. You skipping around simple questions prompted by your "assume that..." statement is not going to get around this fact.
Not a knee jerk response, an obvious response.
mattnunn said:
You've expressed the desire for humanity and the universe to be linked, this is the roor of theology, science (physics at least) attempts to explain the universe outside of the human experience, using human tools admittedly.
Science holds no such special place for humanity. Break me down into my component elements and all you'll find is stardust, nothing special or unique to humanity. I am a transient, short-lived collection of elements that we happen to call "human" at the moment but that in a universal-blink-of-an-eye (10000 years say) may well be spread across various plants, in the atmosphere, perhaps a few of the hydrogen atoms will have escaped into the solar system.
We are the universe and the universe is us.
ewenm said:
Science holds no such special place for humanity. Break me down into my component elements and all you'll find is stardust, nothing special or unique to humanity. I am a transient, short-lived collection of elements that we happen to call "human" at the moment but that in a universal-blink-of-an-eye (10000 years say) may well be spread across various plants, in the atmosphere, perhaps a few of the hydrogen atoms will have escaped into the solar system.
We are the universe and the universe is us.
I think explains it succinctly.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGK84Poeynk
TheHeretic said:
Warmed? Not at all. We are linked. Our brains are constructed of matter, and that matter is part of the universe. Remember the definition of universe which you have avoided answering, instead asking me to think. I do a lot of thinking, and unless you have a woo-ridden definition of universe that only applies to whatever argument you happen to be peddling at the time.
So no, you tell us.
You define universe. The dictionary defines it as all matter, galaxies, planets, everything. Now assuming humans are part of this universe, I fail to see how we could be separate from it, certainly not as we are looking at it where we are, which is as part of the universe.
As for humanity, you will have to define that as well. Is it all of human culture, all humans, or something else. Define it, and we can continue. You skipping around simple questions prompted by your "assume that..." statement is not going to get around this fact.
Not a knee jerk response, an obvious response.
so to summarise, you say, the energy and matter which create our thought, our being, are universally connected, not seperate , from the moons of jupiter? Universall energy flows through humanity, you may be correct, i'm an open book, but sounds like woo , from you?So no, you tell us.
You define universe. The dictionary defines it as all matter, galaxies, planets, everything. Now assuming humans are part of this universe, I fail to see how we could be separate from it, certainly not as we are looking at it where we are, which is as part of the universe.
As for humanity, you will have to define that as well. Is it all of human culture, all humans, or something else. Define it, and we can continue. You skipping around simple questions prompted by your "assume that..." statement is not going to get around this fact.
Not a knee jerk response, an obvious response.
Fwiw my fork is steel, so is my car, connected, for real?
Jabbah said:
NobleGuy said:
It doesn't matter, because that's not the reality and it never will be...
Like trying to nail jelly to a wall 
I wasn't asking what you thought was reality or what would be. I was asking what you thought would be a more preferable society. More simply, which is better, a society with population limited by disease and suffering or one where population is self limited by medical advances and choice?
I don't see why you think it would never be reality either. Birth rate in England and Wales is under 2 yet in Africa its between 5 and 7.
You're making a big assumption that if people were given choice then they'd stop reproducing...and how do medical advances limit population? They appear to concentrate on prolonging life...
mattnunn said:
so to summarise, you say, the energy and matter which create our thought, our being, are universally connected, not seperate , from the moons of jupiter? Universall energy flows through humanity, you may be correct, i'm an open book, but sounds like woo , from you?
Fwiw my fork is steel, so is my car, connected, for real?
Yes, the energy that allows us to think, walk, breathe, plants to grow, tectonic plates to move, planets to orbit, stars to shine, then explode, are universally connected. The elements that make up you are no different to the same element found in a rock, or soul, or the gases on Jupiter, or the expulsions from a dying star billions of light years away. There is nothing special about the things that we are made of. The matter and energy that we, and all things around us are made of interchange, and disperse. As has been said, the elements in your rot hand may well have come from a different star than the elements in your left hand. Just think about that for a minute. You are made of Starpoo.Fwiw my fork is steel, so is my car, connected, for real?
Don't worry about what I say. Just define universe, and humanity.
Edited by TheHeretic on Thursday 3rd May 13:40
NobleGuy said:
If it is a reality it won't be in our lifetime, so from a purely selfish way it makes no difference to me.
You're making a big assumption that if people were given choice then they'd stop reproducing...and how do medical advances limit population? They appear to concentrate on prolonging life...
Well, the easy way is to compare the birth rates of various countries with different access to healthcare, education, etc. Do countries with longer life expectancies have higher, lower, or the same birth rate as those with lower life expectancies? Medical advances tend to concentrate on elevating suffering. Extended life seems to be a byproduct of a healthy population, unsurprisingly.You're making a big assumption that if people were given choice then they'd stop reproducing...and how do medical advances limit population? They appear to concentrate on prolonging life...
NobleGuy said:
If it is a reality it won't be in our lifetime, so from a purely selfish way it makes no difference to me.
But it will improve during your and my lifetimes. That something will tame time, effort and willpower should not mean it's not something worth working towards.NobleGuy said:
You're making a big assumption that if people were given choice then they'd stop reproducing...and how do medical advances limit population? They appear to concentrate on prolonging life...
Population, birth rates and life expectancy are intrinsically linked of course but birth rate and infant mortality are the biggest factor. If you search out the data projecting global population with current development it will peak then fall back significantly to, IIRC, 4-5bn. The assumption is that developing nations start to place more import on quality of life, leisure, etc than on basic survival. Infant mortality rates and their improvement are one of the major factors in the recent explosion of population in developing nations.TheHeretic said:
mattnunn said:
so to summarise, you say, the energy and matter which create our thought, our being, are universally connected, not seperate , from the moons of jupiter? Universall energy flows through humanity, you may be correct, i'm an open book, but sounds like woo , from you?
Fwiw my fork is steel, so is my car, connected, for real?
Yes, the energy that allows us to think, walk, breathe, plants to grow, tectonic plates to move, planets to orbit, stars to shine, then explode, are universally connected. The elements that make up you are no different to the same element found in a rock, or soul, or the gases on Jupiter, or the expulsions from a dying star billions of light years away. There is nothing special about the things that we are made of. The matter and energy that we, and all things around us are made of interchange, and disperse. As has been said, the elements in your rot hand may well have come from a different star than the elements in your left hand. Just think about that for a minute. You are made of Starpoo.Fwiw my fork is steel, so is my car, connected, for real?
Don't worry about what I say. Just define universe, and humanity.
Edited by TheHeretic on Thursday 3rd May 13:40
What is the aim of science if not to model the universe, explain it's happenstance?
ChrisGB said:
fluffnik said:
We have no reason to expect any $DEITY to be active in the physical Universe, and whilst we cannot entirely dismiss the possibility that some strongly god-like entity or system did not set the whole shebang running and step (or the pan-dimensional equivalent thereof) away, I think we can safely dismiss the possibility that any even weakly god-like entity added some whizzy features to an otherwise naturally occurring Universe...
If deism ( a god-ish thing starting things off then stepping back ) is plausible, why is theism not? I don't understand how you think the look of a deist as opposed to theist universe would differ? If there were an interventionist deity we'd see evidence of the supernatural interacting with the natural. We don't.
ChrisGB said:
You can't point to this or that feature of the universe and say here is God or there is his intervention. If earlier peoples did this, they now know better in one sense, and in another they would still acknowledge that same God as source of all that is etc.
I just don't see anything supernatural and nothing supernatural has been found...ChrisGB said:
Naturally-occurring for a theist just means that God sets up and maintains things in such a way that nature looks like it does, it is not an absence of God that things follow laws, it is just how we see what God does unfolding, cf. paraphrasing John 1:1-14 with law instead of logos.
Naturally-occurring is just that.ChrisGB said:
The counter to this is that you don't need this God in the explanation, which I will grant if you reject the logic of the How come question, redefine nothing by not taking it seriously, and show that revelation is an impossibility. For starters...
There being something is a necessary prerequisite of any question, there need not be a why.That nothing turns out to be a bit lumpy on closer examination is not not taking it seriously.
What is revelation?
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