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vonuber
3,903 posts
34 months
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I've always wondered how those of a deist bent justify the increasing impotence of God as we discover more things about how the Uiverse works.
I mean a few thousand years ago, apparently you couldn't move for all the burning bushes, plagues, destroying cities, raising zombies..
Now it's like God's pay-as-you-go has run out, and he's a bit strapped for cash.
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TheHeretic
68,165 posts
124 months
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vonuber said: I've always wondered how those of a deist bent justify the increasing impotence of God as we discover more things about how the Uiverse works.
I mean a few thousand years ago, apparently you couldn't move for all the burning bushes, plagues, destroying cities, raising zombies..
Now it's like God's pay-as-you-go has run out, and he's a bit strapped for cash. God's only ability these days seems to be limited to images of the virgin Mary on toast.
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TheHeretic
68,165 posts
124 months
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TwigtheWonderkid
6,089 posts
19 months
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ChrisGB said: So Twig, what are all these world ills that are directly attributable to religion? Still waiting for the list and the direct links. I've answered that. Just because you don't like the answer, you expect me to give one more suitable to you. Good luck with that! ChrisGB said: Sex being partly / mainly / solely for procreation a lie? Well which bit? Partly or mainly? How else do you suggest procreating? If sex isn't partly for procreation, how should we procreate? When a post menopausal woman or a pregnant woman has sex, then it is not even partly for procreation. It's 100% recreational. Yet post menopausal and pregnant women do have sex, and want to have sex, and enjoy having sex. But I'm guessing you think that's filthy talk!
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Vipers
15,544 posts
97 months
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My f  king head is starting to hurt again....... 
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fluffnik
17,394 posts
96 months
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ChrisGB said: 40+ million abortions every year from ignoring my religion They'd just have been, effectively, aborted earlier with Catholic chastity - when a gamete's gone, it's gone! So, we still don't have 40 million extra people (a good thing IMO) but we've missed out on a whole heap of jiggy fun...
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ChrisGB
897 posts
72 months
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CJ and IainT, you think people are innately altruistic and empathetic and that lack of religion empowers people to take responsibility for their actions and morality rather and that this is better than blind obedience out of fear. CJ even calls this his belief. In a comfortably well-off society, it might appear that way for basic material goods. But look a little deeper: a baby is the complete centre of its own universe, it takes years for it to realize that altruism is morally better rhan selfishness or that the world is indifferent to it and cares nothing for it basically - this reality has to be learned, it is not innate. On a different level, pick up a history of Africa to see the moral bankruptcy of humans. It's all very well for a comfy bourgeois to say it's wrong to steal, but put yourself in the shoes of the peasant revolting in 1789 in France for example. As for religion- free types taking over morality, well I'd say >40 million abortions per year thanks to lack of religious morality is a good first indication of the sort of deadly irresponsibility that god-free morality is bringing to the world. And I call it morality of convenience because abortion is nearly always convenience, yet it is depriving the thing of 70+ years of life. Think of euthanasia too - countries where old people's homes are obliged to have an office giving advice on assisted suicide - and where "permanent sedation" until death does not need consent. These are all steps towards getting rid of the elderly who are a "burden" rather than in fact a blessing obliging empathy and altruism. Morality of convenience. Give me examples of god-free morality making higher demands of people in the name of the common good.
And finally the idea that people follow god-morality out of fear of hell is daft - the obvious reason to follow it is that it comes from the god who wants our happiness more than we do.
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ChrisGB
897 posts
72 months
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fluffnik said: ChrisGB said: 40+ million abortions every year from ignoring my religion They'd just have been, effectively, aborted earlier with Catholic chastity - when a gamete's gone, it's gone! So, we still don't have 40 million extra people (a good thing IMO) but we've missed out on a whole heap of jiggy fun... I thought people were naturally altruistic and empathetic (cf. CJ) yet here you are saying you are glad these people never lived. Chastity is a form of abortion? You'll need to unpack that one! If sex is just all so much harmless fun, then why is pedophilia or bestiality not on? And i am assuming willingness on part of child or animal, after all, it is so much harmless fun.
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Pesty
25,888 posts
125 months
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TwigtheWonderkid said: ChrisGB said: Sex being partly / mainly / solely for procreation a lie? Well which bit? Partly or mainly? How else do you suggest procreating? If sex isn't partly for procreation, how should we procreate? When a post menopausal woman or a pregnant woman has sex, then it is not even partly for procreation. It's 100% recreational. Yet post menopausal and pregnant women do have sex, and want to have sex, and enjoy having sex. But I'm guessing you think that's filthy talk! Chris. This seems to be a very good point care to comment?
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TheHeretic
68,165 posts
124 months
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Anyone else think it is weird that the Vatican, (an enclave of sexually repressed, celibate men), feel the need to dictate sexual behaviour for others? As Fry said in his Intelligence squared debate; Fry said: It’s the strangest thing about this church - it is obsessed with sex, absolutely obsessed. Now they will say we, with our permissive society and rude jokes, are obsessed. No, we have a healthy attitude. We like it, it’s fun, it’s jolly; because it’s a primary impulse it can be dangerous and dark and difficult. It’s a bit like food in that respect, only even more exciting. The only people who are obsessed with food are anorexics and the morbidly obese, and that in erotic terms is the Catholic church in a nutshell.
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ChrisGB
897 posts
72 months
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TwigtheWonderkid said: ChrisGB said: So Twig, what are all these world ills that are directly attributable to religion? Still waiting for the list and the direct links. I've answered that. Just because you don't like the answer, you expect me to give one more suitable to you. Good luck with that! ChrisGB said: Sex being partly / mainly / solely for procreation a lie? Well which bit? Partly or mainly? How else do you suggest procreating? If sex isn't partly for procreation, how should we procreate? When a post menopausal woman or a pregnant woman has sex, then it is not even partly for procreation. It's 100% recreational. Yet post menopausal and pregnant women do have sex, and want to have sex, and enjoy having sex. But I'm guessing you think that's filthy talk! Twig, you didn't show how most major world ills are directly attributable to religion. If you did can you please copy paste or tell me page number and accept my apologies. Otherwise please take it back. You misunderstand intention. If I have sex without contraception in the way that people wanting babies do you are intending, on the level of the action itself, procreation. Whether this is when the two people are 12 yrs old, pregnant already or 102 years old. This is the intention inherent in the act. IainT thinks actions do not have inherent intents and he has failed to offer any reason why. He would have to refute two of the greatest minds of the twentieth century, Anscombe and Geach, to do so, but he hasn't even tried. Let me say it again: it can be morally excellent for pregnant people and post-menopausal people to have sex.
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ChrisGB
897 posts
72 months
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TheHeretic said: Anyone else think it is weird that the Vatican, (an enclave of sexually repressed, celibate men), feel the need to dictate sexual behaviour for others? As Fry said in his Intelligence squared debate; Fry said: It’s the strangest thing about this church - it is obsessed with sex, absolutely obsessed. Now they will say we, with our permissive society and rude jokes, are obsessed. No, we have a healthy attitude. We like it, it’s fun, it’s jolly; because it’s a primary impulse it can be dangerous and dark and difficult. It’s a bit like food in that respect, only even more exciting. The only people who are obsessed with food are anorexics and the morbidly obese, and that in erotic terms is the Catholic church in a nutshell. This is quite wrong. - you can spend 80 years in church and never hear a sermon about sex. But the teaching is there and has always been there, and now more than ever people act in a way opposed to that teaching, so the differences come to light more often. The church is reacting to the madness of the age, and this includes the tremendous social ills brought by the sexual revolution. Fry would defend the depriving of 80 years of life to over 40 million fetuses each year? He would call broken homes, lack of commitment, absent fathers a mark of great progress in society? He is just scoring points not looking for the truth.
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Pesty
25,888 posts
125 months
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Religious people are not absent fathers, don't cheat, don't want sex apparently don't get divorced.
glad we sorted that out.
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TheHeretic
68,165 posts
124 months
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ChrisGB said: This is quite wrong. - you can spend 80 years in church and never hear a sermon about sex. But the teaching is there and has always been there, and now more than ever people act in a way opposed to that teaching, so the differences come to light more often. The church is reacting to the madness of the age, and this includes the tremendous social ills brought by the sexual revolution. Fry would defend the depriving of 80 years of life to over 40 million fetuses each year? He would call broken homes, lack of commitment, absent fathers a mark of great progress in society? He is just scoring points not looking for the truth. Back to abortion. You amaze me. You can turn any discussion onto abortion. It is a skill, certainly.
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vonuber
3,903 posts
34 months
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ChrisGB, not going to answer my point about the diminishing power of god as our understanding increases? Note you cannot use the phrases 'all part of the divine plan' or 'God moves in mysterious ways'.
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Halb
17,867 posts
52 months
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Strangely Brown said: If religious people are so moral, why do they represent such a large proportion of the US prison population?  Amusing. Christianity is split but others are all lumped together. Those Krishna b  ds!! And the only conclusion that anyone can reach from the above extrapolated data?.... That Jedis are the only decent people in the world.
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CommanderJameson
20,708 posts
95 months
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ChrisGB said: On a different level, pick up a history of Africa to see the moral bankruptcy of humans. What with Africa being so totally atheist, from one end to the other.
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IainT
8,034 posts
107 months
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ChrisGB said: CJ and IainT, you think people are innately altruistic and empathetic and that lack of religion empowers people to take responsibility for their actions and morality rather and that this is better than blind obedience out of fear. CJ even calls this his belief. In a comfortably well-off society, it might appear that way for basic material goods. But look a little deeper: a baby is the complete centre of its own universe, it takes years for it to realize that altruism is morally better rhan selfishness or that the world is indifferent to it and cares nothing for it basically - this reality has to be learned, it is not innate. On a different level, pick up a history of Africa to see the moral bankruptcy of humans. It's all very well for a comfy bourgeois to say it's wrong to steal, but put yourself in the shoes of the peasant revolting in 1789 in France for example. As for religion- free types taking over morality, well I'd say >40 million abortions per year thanks to lack of religious morality is a good first indication of the sort of deadly irresponsibility that god-free morality is bringing to the world. And I call it morality of convenience because abortion is nearly always convenience, yet it is depriving the thing of 70+ years of life. Think of euthanasia too - countries where old people's homes are obliged to have an office giving advice on assisted suicide - and where "permanent sedation" until death does not need consent. These are all steps towards getting rid of the elderly who are a "burden" rather than in fact a blessing obliging empathy and altruism. Morality of convenience. Give me examples of god-free morality making higher demands of people in the name of the common good.
And finally the idea that people follow god-morality out of fear of hell is daft - the obvious reason to follow it is that it comes from the god who wants our happiness more than we do. Your man, it is made of straw. Just re-read what I've posted and I can't see where I claimed that people are born with a full moral compass. I would suggest that we, as a species like many others, have some levels of behaviour in-built. Behaviour that could be seen as altruistic or moral. We also clearly make up our own morality to suit us and often codify societal morality in laws. Morality though is not a thing of absolutes, it varies from time to time and place to place. "It's all very well for a comfy bourgeois to say it's wrong to steal, but put yourself in the shoes of the peasant revolting in 1789 in France for example." What on skyfairy's green earth does that twaddle have to do with anything? Ah, I do get it: you accept that morality is entirely subjective and not an absolute and that God does not exist. Glad we could help you to that basic realisation of simple truth 
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fluffnik
17,394 posts
96 months
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ChrisGB said: fluffnik said: They'd just have been, effectively, aborted earlier with Catholic chastity - when a gamete's gone, it's gone!
So, we still don't have 40 million extra people (a good thing IMO) but we've missed out on a whole heap of jiggy fun... I thought people were naturally altruistic and empathetic (cf. CJ) yet here you are saying you are glad these people never lived. I think keeping the human population down is a good thing, for the planet, for society and for each and every one of the actual people, as we will see... ChrisGB said: Chastity is a form of abortion? You'll need to unpack that one! No, effectively equivalent to. Every gamete (sperm or ovum) is roughly (more DNA in X than Y chromosomes) 0.5 of a protograndparent. ...and once they're gone, they're gone. Every bit as gone as if they'd combined but failed to implant in the wall of the womb for whatever reason. Just as gone as if they'd been scraped away with the womb's lining. Just as gone as they would be in the nocturnal emissions and menstrual flows of the celibate... Societies where people, especially women, control their fertility to have fewer children are happier, wealthier and more stable; their children thrive and are better educated. Such societies also tend to be less religious. ChrisGB said: If sex is just all so much harmless fun, then why is pedophilia or bestiality not on? And i am assuming willingness on part of child or animal, after all, it is so much harmless fun. The word you have missed is consensual.
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TwigtheWonderkid
6,089 posts
19 months
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ChrisGB said: You misunderstand intention. If I have sex without contraception in the way that people wanting babies do you are intending, on the level of the action itself, procreation. Whether this is when the two people are 12 yrs old, pregnant already or 102 years old. This is the intention inherent in the act. Doggery (Much Ado About Nothing) would be proud of you!! How you tie yourself up in linguistic knots trying to deny that sex can be 100% recreational, because the concept might offend your imaginary friend and prevent you from getting into heaven.....it's actually rather sad.
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