Patriotism

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Discussion

Countdown

39,690 posts

195 months

Monday 7th May 2012
quotequote all
My dad's very patriotic smile

I remember him putting a Union Flag in our front room window on the Queen's Silver Jubilee in 1977.

It must have confused the National Front as they put a brick through our (white) neighbours window instead.

rofl

TwigtheWonderkid

43,248 posts

149 months

Monday 7th May 2012
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Countdown said:
It must have confused the National Front
It never took much to achieve that! Not the brightest.

F93

575 posts

182 months

Monday 7th May 2012
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I think it's stupid how we've fallen in love with the Army.

I mean, all the fascists in history fell in love with the Army. Of course, the UK could never be fascist, I think we all think of it as 'far too silly' and that that sort of thing is nigh impossible to gain much ground here. But still, we seem to think that loving the army is part of being British. No, it isnt, it's part of being nationalist.

If you really wanted to love Britain, you'd love the Navy, because the Royal Navy facilitated the rise of our Empire and secured our place as top dog for 200 years. The army has always played a secondary role in making our Imperial history 'glorious'. Think of the battle of Waterloo, nearly lost if it weren't for? The Prussians.... But Trafalgar? Our small, outnumbered fleet still won.

But to reply to the OP, don't take anyone's political views at uni. I'm currently at uni myself, though thankfully one full of upper-middle class people who don't care for politics much, only to vote for a Tory MP every now and then, and hardly anyone gets that passionate about it... (Though the other day the Socialist Association tried to kidnap Francis Maude when he came to speak at a Conservative Club meeting).

By the time everyone's abut 25 and realized that unless they're the most determined person around, they don't put any emotion into politics anymore and most of the time don't care. In a way I think being passionate about politics as a member of the general public is a bit immature really. I mean unless you are a politician or a journalist, why must you?

iphonedyou

9,234 posts

156 months

Monday 7th May 2012
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The Hitman said:
Well, I like it how you've completely forgot about the costs of having a Royal Family, like security? That alone costs 100 million.
You're not being serious.

Wait - are you?

borris morris

496 posts

143 months

Monday 7th May 2012
quotequote all
It's just a phase. Virtually every university student was a commie during the 70s. Now those erstwhile students are all grown-up, and is Britain a communist country? No. So rest assured the transient thoughts of overweening students count for absolutely nothing. Thank fk.

Zwolf

25,867 posts

205 months

Monday 7th May 2012
quotequote all
As the adage goes: "The man who is not a socialist at twenty has no heart, but if he is still a socialist at forty he has no head."

Ray Luxury-Yacht

8,910 posts

215 months

Monday 7th May 2012
quotequote all
I'm no Royalist, and despite the fact I am happy, and in fact feel lucky to be a reasonably content resident of the UK, I am also aware of the way in which the UK is viewed outside of these shores by other countries, people, faiths and communities.

Despite the manner in which we brand some groups as 'terrorists' and bad people, I can also see how they view us as smug, evil buggers, who they think need to be taken down a peg or two.

And the ruling monarchy has a part to play in that - although it's mostly historic.

You only have to look back to fairly recent history to see how the monarchy and the loyal patriots of the UK thought it was ok to trample all over foreign lands, ways of life and religions, in pursuit of our 'Empire'.

If we think that some of the Muslim extremists are currently a bit out of control and mental, then I would point you back 1,000 years or so, when we were active purveyors of 'The Crusades', when we fought, murdered and spilled much blood, in our attempt to regress Muslims and stamp our Christian authority upon the world.

You could argue that History has no place in modern ruling, sentiment or politics - and that's partly true I suppose. If no-one was prepared to forget the past and work for a better future, then mankind would never progress anywhere.

However, I do see and appreciate some factions of animosity towards our country, our people's patriotism, and our Monarchy. Some people have very long memories and scores to settle that are steeped in history's previous shameless atrocoties.


With regard to our current Royal Family, I view them as a rather quaint, outdated and slightly irrelevant institution, that we tolerate with a nod to past values. Certainly, despite some of the Parliamentary ceremonies and historic protocol, they don't really get involved in or even have much sway in, our Country's decision making, policies or direction.

What they do do, however, is provide the place with a unique identity, that many other countries don't have. And I mean this with regard to modern-day tourism and curiosity from foreign visitors.

There is no doubt that in some other countries, our Royal Family is viewed with an intense wonder, curiosity and even love. Despite it's rather out-dated nature and almost pointless existence politically, it sure does bring in a massive amount of tourism money year in, year out. Whether we like it or not, especially in this economic climate, we rely heavily on out tourist market.

I like having them, because without them, thousands of jobs and livelihoods would disappear overnight. In London, I am sure hundreds of hotels, restaurants and sellers of tat rely heavily on our monarchy for their survival.

And then the Royal estates themselves, not just Buckingham Palace but all the residencies, employ thousands of people who would also be out of a job without them.


So I think you can tolerate, like and even admire the UK's Royalty without actually being some kind of extreme patriot or being judged by others as being some sort of extremist, no?

That's my 2p's worth on the subject anyway! biggrin




The Hitman

2,592 posts

209 months

Monday 7th May 2012
quotequote all
iphonedyou said:
You're not being serious.

Wait - are you?
Are YOU serious? You don't think it costs money to set up and maintain security systems and have trained security personnel keeping them safe? Obviously, no-one has ever tried to asassinate a head of state.

Some people really are naive.

mat777

Original Poster:

10,360 posts

159 months

Monday 7th May 2012
quotequote all
Zwolf said:
As the adage goes: "The man who is not a socialist at twenty has no heart, but if he is still a socialist at forty he has no head."
Which does beg the question of why are so many students unabashed commies? Is it just because the work-shy, forced equality ethos appeals to them as it means they dont have to get out of bed or work very hard? (I notice a far higher percentage of left leaning arts/social science students than scientists or engineers that actually get given work to do)

Burrow01

1,802 posts

191 months

Monday 7th May 2012
quotequote all
iphonedyou said:
The Hitman said:
Well, I like it how you've completely forgot about the costs of having a Royal Family, like security? That alone costs 100 million.
You're not being serious.

Wait - are you?
And obviously it would be much cheaper to have security for a President..


"Both VC-25s (747) travel about 10 mins apart and the decoy will land at an alternate airfield incase anything were to happen to the non decoy on the ground.

Support aircraft can include 1 C5, 4 C17 another 747 for staff and a 757 for the VP total inc 2 AF1, 9 aircraft!"


http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

Edited by Burrow01 on Monday 7th May 22:30


Edited by Burrow01 on Monday 7th May 22:33

Zwolf

25,867 posts

205 months

Monday 7th May 2012
quotequote all
mat777 said:
Zwolf said:
As the adage goes: "The man who is not a socialist at twenty has no heart, but if he is still a socialist at forty he has no head."
Which does beg the question of why are so many students unabashed commies? Is it just because the work-shy, forced equality ethos appeals to them as it means they dont have to get out of bed or work very hard? (I notice a far higher percentage of left leaning arts/social science students than scientists or engineers that actually get given work to do)
Possibly. Outlook often changes once Uni's over and reality kicks in and they find out that things like a roof over your head, clothes on your back and food in the cupboard need paying for, with labour. Then they start resenting that so much of that pay is taken from them to give to others less productive etc.

Only those with wealthy parents/inheritances can afford to remain socialists all their lives, a great irony I think.

The above based purely on entirely anecdotal personal observation of my own peers as we've aged, expanded to a gross generalisation.

davepoth

29,395 posts

198 months

Tuesday 8th May 2012
quotequote all
Zwolf said:
Possibly. Outlook often changes once Uni's over and reality kicks in and they find out that things like a roof over your head, clothes on your back and food in the cupboard need paying for, with labour. Then they start resenting that so much of that pay is taken from them to give to others less productive etc.

Only those with wealthy parents/inheritances can afford to remain socialists all their lives, a great irony I think.

The above based purely on entirely anecdotal personal observation of my own peers as we've aged, expanded to a gross generalisation.
I think an awful lot of student socialism might have been something to do with "Ooh look, the government has paid me to come to this lovely university for three years and have fun. What a marvellous idea".

As a result, students of the current generation are going to be rather more hard nosed - they're paying, they'll want a result.

davepoth

29,395 posts

198 months

Tuesday 8th May 2012
quotequote all
TwigtheWonderkid said:
Yes, quite right, it was opium. As regards slavery, I think as a nation we were very proud of our success as major players in the slve trade. We celebrated it with adournments to our buildings of the time, where it was reflected in the stone carvings. Very prevelent at the time, especially in Liverpool and Bristol, major slave trade ports.

Of course the bible was cited as justification for slavery, so early opponents were deemed to be anti christian and unpatriotic.
Edited by TwigtheWonderkid on Monday 7th May 08:35
Considering the Church of England was one of the bodies paid in exchange for their slaves after the 1834 act, one can understand why they didn't oppose it. biggrin

Strictly speaking Bristol and Liverpool weren't directly involved in the slave trade - only a very small number ever came to England, and as I mentioned before they weren't really slaves once they landed. Bristol and Liverpool were one point of the triangular trade - they exported guns and trade goods to Africa, and imported sugar, tobacco and rum from the new world. Of course, the whole enterprise was run from the UK, and the cities grew fat on the profits.

so called

9,074 posts

208 months

Tuesday 8th May 2012
quotequote all
F93 said:
I think it's stupid how we've fallen in love with the Army.

I mean, all the fascists in history fell in love with the Army. Of course, the UK could never be fascist, I think we all think of it as 'far too silly' and that that sort of thing is nigh impossible to gain much ground here. But still, we seem to think that loving the army is part of being British. No, it isnt, it's part of being nationalist.

If you really wanted to love Britain, you'd love the Navy, because the Royal Navy facilitated the rise of our Empire and secured our place as top dog for 200 years. The army has always played a secondary role in making our Imperial history 'glorious'. Think of the battle of Waterloo, nearly lost if it weren't for? The Prussians.... But Trafalgar? Our small, outnumbered fleet still won.

But to reply to the OP, don't take anyone's political views at uni. I'm currently at uni myself, though thankfully one full of upper-middle class people who don't care for politics much, only to vote for a Tory MP every now and then, and hardly anyone gets that passionate about it... (Though the other day the Socialist Association tried to kidnap Francis Maude when he came to speak at a Conservative Club meeting).

By the time everyone's abut 25 and realized that unless they're the most determined person around, they don't put any emotion into politics anymore and most of the time don't care. In a way I think being passionate about politics as a member of the general public is a bit immature really. I mean unless you are a politician or a journalist, why must you?
Are you blond ?

Vocal Minority

8,582 posts

151 months

Tuesday 8th May 2012
quotequote all
Have to say having done a politics degree I come across this sort of thing a lot.

OP - You and your friend are both princiapally falling into the same trap from different sides. You both seem to assume a). you incontravertably correct about a matter of fact and b). That the majority inevitably and always agree with your stand point.

Neither of these issues are ever the case in reality.

Firstly there is no such thing as a matter of fact in politics. There are only stanpoints and opinions. Nothing is a 'fact', everything is subjective. You both merely happen to share different ones, but both perceive them to be a matter of fact and any disagreement from eachother is a matter of mental deficiency, not a case of different discourses. (At least this applies when the question is a simple one rather than something more idealogical like saying if you don't like the monarchy you are not British). E.G. The sentence - 'Hitler was Bad' - I agree with the sentence, Anders Brevik may not. Both of us would treat this opinion as a matter of fact in our way. What we can probably agree on though, for example, was that Hitler was not a socialist in the Marxian sense.

Secondly, if you two hold political beliefs that you get a bit prickly about, you are likely to hold company with broadly like minded people. As such the OPs friend will believe his opinion is consensus, though the sample he has taken the 99% from is hardly fair - thus making the claim a nonsense.

I have a friend who is a committed socialist (he is an English Literature PHD student) and whilst I believe his opinions are fairly divorced from economic reality and that he lives in a bubble, it doesn't mean we don't get on and have a spirited squabble from time to time.(For the sake of context I am to all intents and purposes central in my views)

In short OP, whilst I find having passion for politics admirable (the idea that this is immature is, to me, immature in itself) I hope you can both cool off and not sacrifice your friendship over this, and use the experience to broaden your world view.

But what do I know?

R Mutt

5,882 posts

71 months

Monday 24th June 2019
quotequote all
I saw an extreme social justice warrior post on Facebook yesterday, sharing an (American) article entitled 'Stop disguising your racism as patriotism' and wondered how those with the mindset define patriotism.

Shortly after, I heard a BBC podcast where people discuss songs with deep meaning to them. One chap was discussing Vaughan Williams Tallis Fantasia, a composer noted for drawing heavily on Tudor and English Renaissance influences. The man had recently buried his son, who also loved the piece, and upon picking up a handful of dirt from the graveyard, felt a special connection to his son through the piece of England he'd grabbed.

Racist.

Countdown

39,690 posts

195 months

Monday 24th June 2019
quotequote all
R Mutt said:
I saw an extreme social justice warrior post on Facebook yesterday, sharing an (American) article entitled 'Stop disguising your racism as patriotism' and wondered how those with the mindset define patriotism.

Shortly after, I heard a BBC podcast where people discuss songs with deep meaning to them. One chap was discussing Vaughan Williams Tallis Fantasia, a composer noted for drawing heavily on Tudor and English Renaissance influences. The man had recently buried his son, who also loved the piece, and upon picking up a handful of dirt from the graveyard, felt a special connection to his son through the piece of England he'd grabbed.

Racist.
I'm not sure how you can come to that conclusion at all confused

R Mutt

5,882 posts

71 months

Monday 24th June 2019
quotequote all
Countdown said:
R Mutt said:
I saw an extreme social justice warrior post on Facebook yesterday, sharing an (American) article entitled 'Stop disguising your racism as patriotism' and wondered how those with the mindset define patriotism.

Shortly after, I heard a BBC podcast where people discuss songs with deep meaning to them. One chap was discussing Vaughan Williams Tallis Fantasia, a composer noted for drawing heavily on Tudor and English Renaissance influences. The man had recently buried his son, who also loved the piece, and upon picking up a handful of dirt from the graveyard, felt a special connection to his son through the piece of England he'd grabbed.

Racist.
I'm not sure how you can come to that conclusion at all confused
Ask the Remainers what grounds they have for accusing Leavers of racism.

captain_cynic

11,873 posts

94 months

Monday 24th June 2019
quotequote all
R Mutt said:
Countdown said:
R Mutt said:
I saw an extreme social justice warrior post on Facebook yesterday, sharing an (American) article entitled 'Stop disguising your racism as patriotism' and wondered how those with the mindset define patriotism.

Shortly after, I heard a BBC podcast where people discuss songs with deep meaning to them. One chap was discussing Vaughan Williams Tallis Fantasia, a composer noted for drawing heavily on Tudor and English Renaissance influences. The man had recently buried his son, who also loved the piece, and upon picking up a handful of dirt from the graveyard, felt a special connection to his son through the piece of England he'd grabbed.

Racist.
I'm not sure how you can come to that conclusion at all confused
Ask the Remainers what grounds they have for accusing Leavers of racism.
Poor Gammon... Did you get called names again. They hurt the most when they're true don't they.

Apart from that, you're just demonstrating that you're angry and have zero attachment to reality.

Countdown

39,690 posts

195 months

Monday 24th June 2019
quotequote all
R Mutt said:
Countdown said:
R Mutt said:
I saw an extreme social justice warrior post on Facebook yesterday, sharing an (American) article entitled 'Stop disguising your racism as patriotism' and wondered how those with the mindset define patriotism.

Shortly after, I heard a BBC podcast where people discuss songs with deep meaning to them. One chap was discussing Vaughan Williams Tallis Fantasia, a composer noted for drawing heavily on Tudor and English Renaissance influences. The man had recently buried his son, who also loved the piece, and upon picking up a handful of dirt from the graveyard, felt a special connection to his son through the piece of England he'd grabbed.

Racist.
I'm not sure how you can come to that conclusion at all confused
Ask the Remainers what grounds they have for accusing Leavers of racism.
Was it anything to do with Vaughan Williams or Tallis Fantasia?