Has anyone used a private detective?

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A lot of this does strike a chord with me. I've ordered the book and it will be interesting to test the theory. I almost don't want it to be accurate but it's difficult to go against your own experiences...

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Glad things are going well for you STK and thanks for checking in.

Sorry to hear about your troubles theguvernor and el romeral - there are a lot of us around. Things do get better though, and PHers have been brilliant for me. There is always someone around (including me) to PM or post your thoughts with.

Following mikefacel and Joey Deacon's posts last week I ordered The Rational Male and I'm now 100 pages in. To be honest I'm finding it depressing because so many of the observations/character traits/behaviours are so well defined and so accurate in my own experience. I'm clearly a "Beta Provider" and it's staggering how accurately the behaviour of just about every woman in my life is portrayed (including being largely raised by my mother, lots of female friends during adolescence, few male role models). My own character is pretty much perfectly defined too, including my frustration at "doing everything right" and ending up with the poor end of the deal in my marriage. It's perhaps aimed at a slightly younger demographic but the observations seem to hold true across all ages.

This will probably come across in the wrong way, but I don't struggle for female attention. I'm fairly bright, reasonably attractive, have a good career, decent sense of humour and I'm a good communicator with integrity. However, women almost always fall into two categories - the ones who want to pin me down quickly and the ones who mess me around endlessly. There has almost never been anything else. It had never occurred to me (ego alert!) that it's me that is the problem. I can come across as "alpha" for a while but I'm really a "beta". I read The Game by Neil Strauss a couple of years ago and I did find that an eye-opener because some of the techniques clearly worked. It did all feel a bit false though.

I'm clinging on to a faint hope now that the "red pill" theory was invented to fit the behaviours observed rather than that we are just programmed this way. However, if I'm honest he has hit the nail right on the head with regards to my own life and those of others I'm close to. It's uncanny. Even in the last couple of weeks I have been used as an "orbiter" and the steps are perfectly described.

Obviously I will take this as just another input into my thought process (rather than treat it as gospel - plus I need to finish the book) but it leaves me with a bit of a dilemma. I have never believed in "the one" but I do enjoy female company greatly, both the physical and mental sides. If I am to improve things it appears I will have to view women through a different lens and modify my behaviour significantly. I can see that this can come across as misogynistic and I really don't want that. I like who I am and I'm comfortable in my own skin - it would just be good if that worked. Then again, I would say that wouldn't I, I'm an Average Frustrated Chump :-).

It's a complex subject and I do know I'm not in the right place to be making any significant decisions. I'd be interested to hear other people's thoughts on this though.

Edited by A bit down on Tuesday 12th May 10:09

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Amateurish said:

Well done on keeping such a level head. Don't forget that the divorce itself is only half the process - you also need a financial settlement. If you don't, look what happened to Dale Vince.

Thank you.

Can you elaborate on the financial settlement piece please? I've looked at Mr Vince's circumstances and there doesn't seem to have been a decision made. The claim itself is scary though.

I'm not quite in his financial position but I do want divorce to be full and final - I paid out a lump sum initially and I pay a fairly hefty amount each month in maintenance as I want the children to have a nice lifestyle wherever they are. Both the lump and the monthly payment are well in excess of the various online calculators the system would "award".

This is been in position for well over two years but apart from some emails agreeing the numbers there is nothing 'in writing' and it wasn't mentioned at all in the divorce paperwork. I take it this should be a big red flag for me?

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StottyEvo said:

Depressing isn't it. I think its relevant for all ages as I'm 24 and after breaking up with a long term girlfriend I had to change how I act, talk to and treat girls before I was attractive to them again.

I haven't read the book but I can imagine the contents.

I think most of the book contents are blog posts from the Rational Male website so you could just scan there if you want a high level view. I had initially dismissed it as just laddish banter but many of the posters are smart, articulate clear thinkers (with the odd nutjob for good measure of course - in fact it's like PH in mirror form :-)).

And yes, it is depressing.

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Amateurish said:

Yes it is a big red flag. Nothing is final until there is a court order.

The divorce and the financial settlement are two separate processes. You can come to an agreement together on the finances, and then ask the court to make the agreement binding. If you don't, then either party can bring a financial claim against the other many years down the line (as Mr Vince found out).

Someone in your position would be well advised to take legal advice on the financial side, even if your intention was to come to an amicable agreement. You should be negotiating from a position of knowledge.

Thanks for this, I really appreciate the insight. Will look into it.

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olly22n said:

I was very sure to get a full and final financial settlement.

The only aspect I wasn't able to safeguard on was the childcare, as far as I could tell the CSA were all powerful and all reaching.

Recently it has been hard for me, looking back as the young stupid idiot that I was marrying my ex-wife. For the life of me I cannot see what attracted me to her, and think what life would have been like if I had swerved her, like I should.

Until my daughter is 18, (and well, lets be honest far beyond that) I will NEVER be able to block her out of my life. Its a fking anchor dragging you down.

My life has pretty much improved in every aspect since leaving her, but its that last chain that I can't shake.



/sozfortheoutofthebluerant.

No problem, I can completely empathise. I keep myself sane by telling myself if I hadn't gone that way I wouldn't have my kids and I wouldn't change that for anything.

That said, when I got together with X I had a straight choice between two women. I have thought many times since that I made the wrong choice. Easy to do with hindsight though.

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MissChief said:

How are you paying your maintenance ABD? I hope it's a method which can be fully tracked and there's an official record of? I've heard of cases where cash has been paid only for the woman to turn round and state 'he's given me nothing' and it can't be proven. Ideally pay it be standing order if you can.

Yes, it's paid by standing order each month. One thing I've got right!

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OK then..... :-)

I mentioned a few days ago that I had been treated as an "orbiter" but hadn't recognised it. This is a woman I have been out with a couple of times over a fairly long period and the actual dates went very well but she was flaky and elusive in between. I had largely moved on but in the interests of science I sent her a text last night that was a bit more "Alpha". No chest beating, just asked how it was going and mentioned that I'd been approached about an interesting new job and that I had a couple of dates lined up for the weekend (both true but more by accident than design). Not stuff I'd normally discuss with her but I thought I'd test the water around the hypergamy "female competition" theory.

Ten minutes later I had a text back of "been meaning to catch up with you for ages, are you free next weekend?". Unbelievable. I feel like a horrible fraud but will of course now continue with the experiment. Has anyone got any fake tribal tattoos and orange paint I can borrow before next weekend?

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MissChief said:

Has the date happened yet ABD? And the other ones too?

It's supposed to be tomorrow night but there are signs of flakiness so we'll see. Will let you know :-)

Of the two last weekend I cancelled one as I just didn't fancy it and the other one went OK but I don't think I'll see her again (my choice).

I enjoy the company but I really don't think I want another "relationship" so I'm thinking I'll just set up dates when it suits me and see how things go.

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Well at least I'm now tuning in. I could see the flake coming and despite promising to call me on Friday and then yesterday to confirm details for tonight.....not a peep. Despite it being her idea.

Consider me not surprised. Still struggling to see how people think it's OK to just utterly waste other people's time though. Not sure I ever will, but onwards and upwards.

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Hello,

It's three years since X moved out and I feel like I've had some time and space to gain perspective on things. As there are a few people who seem to be in a similar boat (or heading in the same direction) I thought I'd give an update.

My relationship with my kids is brilliant. I couldn't have asked for two better children and although they have their challenges we are really close and can/do talk about anything, as well as doing fun stuff together. My son is at high school now and has settled in fantastically - I'm actually very surprised by how well he has coped with what for him was a big change. With the odd "teenage moment", my daughter is a real pleasure to be around.

X never filed the divorce papers. I have no idea why and she doesn't want to have the discussion - I'm going to have to start again and do it myself. She had been seeing someone for some time and he had got to know the kids - they seem to quite like him which is good. Two weeks ago I think they must have split up as I had a text from X asking to move back in...I declined of course. They now seem to be back together. I don't really have anything to do with her beyond logistics for the kids and that works OK.

My work has suffered over the last three years. Although I had to scale back my responsibilities in order to spend more time with the children (which I don't regret for a second and I still have them for half the week), I'm nowhere near as sharp as I used to be and I often have to force myself to focus. I seem to be tired a lot of the time too, even though my diet is fairly good and I exercise well. I just seem to care less about work. I hope I can turn this around a little as I used to derive a lot of satisfaction from my job.

Relationship-wise I'm a mess. I mentioned earlier in the thread that my tolerance for strange behaviour/histrionics is completely shot. At the first sign of irrational behaviour I'm gone, irrespective of how much I like the person. I also can't bring myself to let anyone into my world and I certainly don't trust anyone. Of perhaps 30 women I've dated one way or another over the last three years I haven't introduced a single one to any of my friends or family, even when I've been part of a "couple". I don't/can't discuss feelings with them at all and I eventually end up breaking it off (ironically the one person I actually really felt like I would like to spend time with long-term was the one who broke up with me...in every other case it's been my decision).

It's now reached the point where I've been "off the market" for months. I thought I just wasn't ready but if anything I'm even less inclined to make the effort now. I do have days when I feel like it would be good to have someone in my life but they are few and far between - I can't picture what a proper relationship would actually be like and it doesn't seem fair to put another person in the position of having to deal with that. I'm sure this isn't healthy and I'm thinking of going back to counselling to try and organise my thoughts a little. Basically I have no idea what I want, or how to get there.

I've made a lot of mistakes in life, made some poor choices and I'm not handling my emotional side well. I'm very much enjoying my time with the kids which is great but I'm not getting much else right.

So there we have it - not very positive but it's how things are. I'd welcome any input from anyone that the above resonates with but even if everyone else is bored now, it always helps me to write it down.

Hope everyone else is doing OK.

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Thanks for the replies.

Yes, to move in as a couple. Bizarre but nothing surprises me any more. Obviously Pommygranite is right about the ulterior motive.

I think I would like to talk things through with someone. I'll try the same service we used at the time as they were very good. I don't understand why I've been affected in this way so I'm not sure how to deal with it - can't do any harm to try and get some outside perspective.

Thanks again.

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Thanks again. I've grasped the nettle and booked a counselling session for tomorrow. We'll see how it goes.

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Thanks a lot for the comments and experiences. When the kids ask I just tell them that it's between me and their Mum but that we both love them very much. I don't think it's for me to tell them and I think they suspect something anyway. They're old enough now to understand that X can be unstable at times.

My counselling was interesting. A very positive experience and we've worked out a plan to try and balance my emotional side a bit over the next few weeks. If nothing else I very much enjoyed the chance to just lay it all out and discuss in an open manner.

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Thanks for the kind words.

X let me know (via text!) yesterday that she's now engaged...at least the divorce paperwork should get sorted now. It's all getting a bit surreal again.

I think it's time for me to ask to meet the new guy. Clearly he's going to be around for a while and I'd like to know what kind of person is going to be around my children - I think that's a reasonable request?

Edited to add, the new guy isn't "A", or whatever I called him in the early messages - just someone she's met since...as far as I know!

Edited by A bit down on Monday 23 November 13:01

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Thanks for the replies and perspectives. I wasn't thinking of demanding to meet him as some kind of right, more just asking as it's clear he's going to be involved. I fully understand that I have no say in what goes on here, I'm just interested in what kind of influence he's likely to have.

It'll also make me feel better if a) he seems like a good sort who will be good for the kids and b) he'll be distracting X from doing crazy stuff in my direction.

As a mature and balanced individual, I'm only 60% likely to tell him that she wanted to move back in with me a couple of weeks ago :-)

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BrabusMog said:

Agreed. In this case I think it is fair to put yourself in your exes shoes and ask if you would be happy should she ask to meet someone you were involved with? If they are engaged I'd imagine he would have been around the kids a fair bit already? As you have finished with her (regardless of why) you have given up any influence you had on who she meets and who the children meet through her.

Thanks for the input. It seems this would make me an outlier but I definitely would be happy for her to meet someone who is likely to be a big influence in the children's lives and I can (of course) completely understand why that would be important to her. It's not like it's a "test", or that I have any say in the matter - it just seems to make sense for us to meet. Wouldn't you want to meet him if he was going to spend half the week with your kids? I'm not trying to be spiky, it just seems a natural thing to me.

Just to be absolutely clear, I completely understand that I have no control or influence over this, it would be weird for me to think I did (or wanted to). There is every chance that they would decline my invitation and they would be well within their rights to do so. I would just like to know what kind of person he is.

MissChief said:

I did think that was a bit sudden! You'll get to meet him eventually, probably sooner than you think. You'll get a feel for him pretty quickly and the kids will let you know soon enough, although not always by telling you directly. Watch for the signs. Wanting to stay with you more or for longer, taking ages to get ready to go back to their mums compared to previously etc.

This is interesting. The kids are with me tonight and they told me about it. They are both upset (I can sort of understand this, it puts the lid on any chance they may have hoped for of reconciliation) but they have both asked (seriously) if they can come and live with me full time. I'm now taking the "it's important that you spend time with both of us" line (which I do believe) but I'm annoyed at once again having to play devil's advocate. It probably doesn't help that the kids were told at the same time as X's parents over dinner in front of new person (I'll call him "N") and when they asked what that would mean for them they were told "we don't know yet". They'll be a bit scared of the unknown and they'll also feel like they have to defend me so we'll see how they feel in a few days.

I should be clear here that I see this overall as a good thing. From the little I know of him he sounds like an OK bloke, the kids seem to get along reasonably with him from what I can gather and it will give X the chance to focus on something else and get on with her life. I can't help thinking that the timing is suspect (which is nothing to do with me) and that X seems incapable of putting the kids before herself when it comes to communicating big events for them (which leaves me to pick up the pieces).

Anyway, thanks as ever for the comments - I hadn't expected any views that I shouldn't ask to meet N but maybe I'm reacting emotionally without realising it so I'll sleep on it. As ever, it helps to write things down.

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It's not something I had considered but I suppose anything is possible.

She does still want to have the kids for half the week, the lack of clarity is around where they will live, whether his children will live there too etc. He currently lives about 50 miles away so I'll be strongly resisting the kids moving that far away.

I'd love to have the children with me full time but I'd really struggle to manage to retain anything like the current lifestyle they/we have. I've already cut back a lot on work to have them for half the week (they're not hard work, it's just the logistics of having to be local for school pickup/dropoff etc.) and couldn't realistically cut back any more and remain in the same type of role. The children are the most important thing of course so if it comes to it and I have to re-think the whole thing then I will - I hope it doesn't come to that.

Thanks again for the comments.

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BrabusMog said:

That's fair enough. Maybe it was just the tone of your post, but the way I read it was that you wanted to sit down and have a one-to-one chat with the guy. It's reasonable to express concern for the welfare of your children, I am sure this guy only wants the best for them as well, but there are ways of doing it and asking to have an arranged chat is not one of them, in my opinion, as it will more than likely not be well received by both the fiance and also your ex.

Thanks - I've decided to give it a little while and see how things develop re X's plans as things are often fluid in her world.

The nanny idea is an interesting one and I can definitely see the upside. I value my privacy (and peace&quiet) a lot though so I might look into a pickup/dropoff school service if it comes to that.

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Thanks for the input, certainly opened my eyes to options.