Wife wants sprog Christened - I don't.
Discussion
SWTH said:
Time for a postscript, 20 months on.
At 0453 on the 20th October 2012 my life changed completely. My daughter was born, and I held her for the first half hour of her life. I was the first to hold her, and I think it was what changed my feelings.
I thought of this thread very much over the following few months, and revisited it several times.
My only question now, is this:
What the f
k was I so scared of?
My outlook totally changed, my perceptive on life totally altered. The christening came and went. Not what I wanted, but I let it go to keep the peace.
And then there's the one thing I'd have never though possible: my wife is pregnant again, and its a planned pregnancy. Didn't think it fair that my daughter grew up as an only child, and besides, all the major equipment has been purchased already, so we might as well get our money's worth out of it.
Reading back through the thread, I'm not embarrassed, nor do I regret anything I wrote. That was me at 28, that's how I felt. Now I'm 30 and a parent.
And I bloody love it
Yeah! Really heartening to read that. Daughters are cool - mine is totally Daddy's girl. Well done OP, top stuff.At 0453 on the 20th October 2012 my life changed completely. My daughter was born, and I held her for the first half hour of her life. I was the first to hold her, and I think it was what changed my feelings.
I thought of this thread very much over the following few months, and revisited it several times.
My only question now, is this:
What the f
k was I so scared of?My outlook totally changed, my perceptive on life totally altered. The christening came and went. Not what I wanted, but I let it go to keep the peace.
And then there's the one thing I'd have never though possible: my wife is pregnant again, and its a planned pregnancy. Didn't think it fair that my daughter grew up as an only child, and besides, all the major equipment has been purchased already, so we might as well get our money's worth out of it.
Reading back through the thread, I'm not embarrassed, nor do I regret anything I wrote. That was me at 28, that's how I felt. Now I'm 30 and a parent.
And I bloody love it
Regarding the christening, it's not a bad thing - as you'll have realised at the time, the christening is about parents doing stuff on behalf of the child. You probably felt a bit hypocrytical (I certainly did when I agreed to be a godparent, and I'd never do that again), but it doesn't mean that she won't tread her own path later anyway.
DJFish said:
In a lot if cases it's because the local single faith schools are top of the league tables!
All the schools in my catchment area are CofE schools. I'm an atheist. When seeing the heads of the schools we were looking at, we got plenty of 'we follow the Christian values of blah blah blah' in our education. Nearly made me puke. However, I don't see this as an issue overall. For me, so long as the kids are taught to look for evidence based conclusions and question rather than blindly accept, then I'm OK overall. I also think that parents have a big role to play in education, so I'm not relying on the school to provide these directions exclusively. At some point, they'll question enough to realise that Santa Claus and the tooth fairy aren't real, so I'm expecting the same conclusions to be reached for various other imaginary figures.Kermit power said:
Whilst I hold organised religion in complete contempt nowadays, I don't actually regret getting confirmed.
I was confirmed in the local English church when we were living in France in 1983. As the oldest of three kids getting confirmed in the same ceremony, this meant I was the first to be confirmed there on the day, and as a result the first to get confirmed in that church in just over 50 years. The last person to be confirmed there before me went on to lose his life flying an RAF Lancaster in 1943.
I only know this because his mother, by then well into her nineties was in the congregation at my confirmation, and the pleasure she got from being a part of two events half a century apart, bringing back happy memories about her own son mean far more to me than any of the religious ceremony did then or does now.
Nice story. I don't regret getting confirmed - I was 13 at the time, and still had lots of growing up to do - thinking back, my primary reason was to find out what the wine tasted like. I do regret all the time I wasted on Sundays inside the church singing silly songs and listening to some bloke in a dress pontificate on and on. I could have used that time far more constructively. Or stayed in bed.I was confirmed in the local English church when we were living in France in 1983. As the oldest of three kids getting confirmed in the same ceremony, this meant I was the first to be confirmed there on the day, and as a result the first to get confirmed in that church in just over 50 years. The last person to be confirmed there before me went on to lose his life flying an RAF Lancaster in 1943.
I only know this because his mother, by then well into her nineties was in the congregation at my confirmation, and the pleasure she got from being a part of two events half a century apart, bringing back happy memories about her own son mean far more to me than any of the religious ceremony did then or does now.
lol at the PH hypocrisy is at its usual levels.
The site where people are very vocal with their criticism of all things religious along with their highly amusing descriptions of religious figures, well except Allah (invisible bearded man in sky anyone? etc. oh I've split my sides, again). Yet most, predictably, are Christened, have their children Christened and send thier children to religious schools with excuses varying from, "what harm can it do, the wife wanted it, family wanted it, everyone but me wanted it, it's a good school (other than teaching my children there is an invisible bearded God!")
I bet this will be a popular post
but some of you need to take a look at yourselves.
I'm not religious but I won't criticise those who are. My kids are not Christened but I'll support them should they choose to get Christened.
Chuffed for the OP regarding his attitude to parenthood now
The site where people are very vocal with their criticism of all things religious along with their highly amusing descriptions of religious figures, well except Allah (invisible bearded man in sky anyone? etc. oh I've split my sides, again). Yet most, predictably, are Christened, have their children Christened and send thier children to religious schools with excuses varying from, "what harm can it do, the wife wanted it, family wanted it, everyone but me wanted it, it's a good school (other than teaching my children there is an invisible bearded God!")
I bet this will be a popular post
but some of you need to take a look at yourselves.I'm not religious but I won't criticise those who are. My kids are not Christened but I'll support them should they choose to get Christened.
Chuffed for the OP regarding his attitude to parenthood now
Edited by Jaroon on Thursday 26th June 15:07
In 2012 GTO Scott said:
Sometime in the next few days the wife is going to be dropping a sprog. Whilst this already represents something of a personal failure, wife is now on about the christening.
In 2014 SWTH said:
Time for a postscript, 20 months on.
At 0453 on the 20th October 2012 my life changed completely. My daughter was born, and I held her for the first half hour of her life. I was the first to hold her, and I think it was what changed my feelings.
I thought of this thread very much over the following few months, and revisited it several times.
My only question now, is this:
What the fk was I so scared of?
My outlook totally changed, my perceptive on life totally altered. The christening came and went. Not what I wanted, but I let it go to keep the peace.
And then there's the one thing I'd have never though possible: my wife is pregnant again, and its a planned pregnancy. Didn't think it fair that my daughter grew up as an only child, and besides, all the major equipment has been purchased already, so we might as well get our money's worth out of it.
Reading back through the thread, I'm not embarrassed, nor do I regret anything I wrote. That was me at 28, that's how I felt. Now I'm 30 and a parent.
And I bloody love it
At 0453 on the 20th October 2012 my life changed completely. My daughter was born, and I held her for the first half hour of her life. I was the first to hold her, and I think it was what changed my feelings.
I thought of this thread very much over the following few months, and revisited it several times.
My only question now, is this:
What the f
k was I so scared of?My outlook totally changed, my perceptive on life totally altered. The christening came and went. Not what I wanted, but I let it go to keep the peace.
And then there's the one thing I'd have never though possible: my wife is pregnant again, and its a planned pregnancy. Didn't think it fair that my daughter grew up as an only child, and besides, all the major equipment has been purchased already, so we might as well get our money's worth out of it.
Reading back through the thread, I'm not embarrassed, nor do I regret anything I wrote. That was me at 28, that's how I felt. Now I'm 30 and a parent.
And I bloody love it
SWTH said:
Time for a postscript, 20 months on.
At 0453 on the 20th October 2012 my life changed completely. My daughter was born, and I held her for the first half hour of her life. I was the first to hold her, and I think it was what changed my feelings.
I thought of this thread very much over the following few months, and revisited it several times.
My only question now, is this:
What the fk was I so scared of?
My outlook totally changed, my perceptive on life totally altered. The christening came and went. Not what I wanted, but I let it go to keep the peace.
And then there's the one thing I'd have never though possible: my wife is pregnant again, and its a planned pregnancy. Didn't think it fair that my daughter grew up as an only child, and besides, all the major equipment has been purchased already, so we might as well get our money's worth out of it.
Reading back through the thread, I'm not embarrassed, nor do I regret anything I wrote. That was me at 28, that's how I felt. Now I'm 30 and a parent.
And I bloody love it
I love this. At 0453 on the 20th October 2012 my life changed completely. My daughter was born, and I held her for the first half hour of her life. I was the first to hold her, and I think it was what changed my feelings.
I thought of this thread very much over the following few months, and revisited it several times.
My only question now, is this:
What the f
k was I so scared of?My outlook totally changed, my perceptive on life totally altered. The christening came and went. Not what I wanted, but I let it go to keep the peace.
And then there's the one thing I'd have never though possible: my wife is pregnant again, and its a planned pregnancy. Didn't think it fair that my daughter grew up as an only child, and besides, all the major equipment has been purchased already, so we might as well get our money's worth out of it.
Reading back through the thread, I'm not embarrassed, nor do I regret anything I wrote. That was me at 28, that's how I felt. Now I'm 30 and a parent.
And I bloody love it
Parenthood often brings out feelings you didn't know you had and never thought you would have. I love that you're enjoying it. Jaroon said:
lol at the PH hypocrisy is at its usual levels.
The site where people are very vocal with their criticism of all things religious along with their highly amusing descriptions of religious figures, well except Allah (invisible bearded man in sky anyone? etc. oh I've split my sides, again). Yet most, predictably, are Christened, have their children Christened and send thier children to religious schools with excuses varying from, "what harm can it do, the wife wanted it, family wanted it, everyone but me wanted it, it's a good school (other than teaching my children there is an invisible bearded God!")
I bet this will be a popular post but some of you need to take a look at yourselves.
What's your point? The site where people are very vocal with their criticism of all things religious along with their highly amusing descriptions of religious figures, well except Allah (invisible bearded man in sky anyone? etc. oh I've split my sides, again). Yet most, predictably, are Christened, have their children Christened and send thier children to religious schools with excuses varying from, "what harm can it do, the wife wanted it, family wanted it, everyone but me wanted it, it's a good school (other than teaching my children there is an invisible bearded God!")
I bet this will be a popular post
but some of you need to take a look at yourselves.If your point is that nobody criticises Islam/Allah, I'll buck that trend - it's a religion with no more credibility than any other with a figurehead that there's no evidence for. As for the avoidance of pork - that's just ridiculous.
If your point is that people shouldn't take the mick or criticise religion at all, that's lame. It's as much a candidate for criticism/ridicule as anything else.
If your point is that people who have no religious faith send their kids to 'faith' schools, it happens that in certain parts of England, there is no choice.
If your point is that people get christened and confirmed and then go on to question those beliefs their parents held, reject them and eventually lampoon them, that's just growing up. My parent's religiousness annoys me as much as my atheism disappoints them - that's life.
Jaroon said:
I'm not religious but I won't criticise those who are. My kids are not Christened but I'll support them should they choose to get Christened.
Good for you. 10/10 for parenting.Jaroon said:
Chuffed for the OP regarding his attitude to parenthood now
We have some common ground.My point is what I think is really going on is the vocal PH anti religious types are only vocal on PH and IRL don't give much of a monkies one way or the other. They just like to give the impression on here that they are C. Hitchens or R. Dawkins in which case good for them, it's what keyboards were invented for it would seem.
I would say my point is to draw attention to the hypocrasy of some posters on here. Hates religion - gets child Christened, loathes Christian views - celebrates Christmas, depises religion - goes to Christenings/ sends children to Christian schools, mocks religious people - fails to realise their own belief system (science) is based on them believing stuff they can not prove for themselves but have "faith" in.
I would say my point is to draw attention to the hypocrasy of some posters on here. Hates religion - gets child Christened, loathes Christian views - celebrates Christmas, depises religion - goes to Christenings/ sends children to Christian schools, mocks religious people - fails to realise their own belief system (science) is based on them believing stuff they can not prove for themselves but have "faith" in.
Edited by Jaroon on Thursday 26th June 16:07
I'm very much a live and let live sort of person, each to their own and all that. However, I actually find it quite disturbing that you refer to the forthcoming birth of your child as some sort of personal failure and it's also quite sad that you have to mock the beliefs of others simply because you do not share those beliefs.
Jaroon said:
My point is what I think is really going on is the vocal PH anti religious types are only vocal on PH and IRL don't give much of a monkies one way or the other. They just like to give the impression on here that they are C. Hitchens or R. Dawkins in which case good for them, it's what keyboards were invented for it would seem.
I would say my point is to draw attention to the hypocrasy of some posters on here. Hates religion - gets child Christened, loathes Christain views - celebrates Christmas, depises religion - goes to Christenings/ sends children to Christen schools, mocks religious people - fails to realise their own belief system (science) is based on them believing stuff they can not prove for themselves.
So here you go:I would say my point is to draw attention to the hypocrasy of some posters on here. Hates religion - gets child Christened, loathes Christain views - celebrates Christmas, depises religion - goes to Christenings/ sends children to Christen schools, mocks religious people - fails to realise their own belief system (science) is based on them believing stuff they can not prove for themselves.
1) I've never thought of myself as anti-religious, but I guess I am.
2) If I'm invited to a Church wedding or a Christening, I'll go, not because I'm a hypocrite, but because I'm not rude.
3) I became a godfather to a friend's child. I regret what I had to say at the time, and I certainly wouldn't ever do it again. However, I'm proud to have been asked, and I'm still proud to be a godfather.
4) My daughter will start school at CofE St Margaret's because I don't have a choice - each of the 3 schools nearest me are attached to CofE churches.
5) I'll mock religious people's beliefs because I think they deserve it (the beliefs especially).
6) I can't prove everything for myself that science has proved to be true, because (i) I don't have to - there are plenty of peer reviewed studies that I can read that illustrate beyond doubt that water is 2 atoms Hydrogen to one atom Oxygen, and therefore cannot possibly become wine, and (ii) for the more complex proofs, I have neither the expertise not the access to the specialist equipment needed to prove it to myself.
7) Just because I can't prove that nothing moves faster than the speed of light for myself, this doesn't mean that I need accept that belief in any supernatural being that nobody has provided any evidence for as a valid hypothesis.
8) The true meaning of Christmas is family, giving and a tradition of merriment. Buggered if I'm going to miss out on that!
I'm clearly not Dawkins - he's a professor and a renowned expert in his field.
I'm clearly not Hitchens - he's dead.
Science has proved lots of things to be true that have turned out not to be true but if peer reviews are your thing then that's your believe measure, cool. Lots of justification, clearly no hypocrasy.
BTW hypocrasy is probably not the worst thing in the world to be accused of, I'm a hypocrite when it comes to many things and I can be inconsistant in a discussion because the discussion is more important than seeming to come out on top
BTW hypocrasy is probably not the worst thing in the world to be accused of, I'm a hypocrite when it comes to many things and I can be inconsistant in a discussion because the discussion is more important than seeming to come out on top
Jaroon said:
Science has proved lots of things to be true that have turned out not to be true but if peer reviews are your thing then that's your believe measure, cool.
Sure, and that's because it's evolving. And it's also because in science, those involved are committed to be open and transparent about what they do and open their workings and data up to the scientific community (I would say public, but in reality, people who aren't in science don't generally read science journals, even though there's no reason why not). Then other scientists are free to point out errors and counter findings. So then we have progress in the mode of Newton's physics (which is 'wrong' or 'not true' under certain circumstances) to Einstein's physics. Scientists welcome this progress, and we all benefit from it - e.g. mobile phones and microchips would not be possible without particle physics.Religion, by it's nature is dogmatic, and can't readily progress because of this. This is one reason why it has to be criticised.
Jaroon said:
BTW hypocrasy is probably not the worst thing in the world to be accused of, I'm a hypocrite when it comes to many things and I can be inconsistant in a discussion because the discussion is more important than seeming to come out on top
I'm not sure I'd call that hypocrisy. I'm OK being wrong, and I'm OK with discussion. I'm also OK with being ignorant. What gets my goat is "I can't explain this, so therefore it's an argument for there being a God". Or "It's written in this book, therefore it must be true". That's not a position for a discussion. If I don't know something, then I don't know - that doesn't mean there's an other worldly reason for it.Jaroon said:
My point is what I think is really going on is the vocal PH anti religious types are only vocal on PH and IRL don't give much of a monkies one way or the other. They just like to give the impression on here that they are C. Hitchens or R. Dawkins in which case good for them, it's what keyboards were invented for it would seem.
I would say my point is to draw attention to the hypocrasy of some posters on here. Hates religion - gets child Christened, loathes Christian views - celebrates Christmas, depises religion - goes to Christenings/ sends children to Christian schools, mocks religious people - fails to realise their own belief system (science) is based on them believing stuff they can not prove for themselves but have "faith" in.
I don't know about anyone else, but I won't say anything on here about religion that I wouldn't say in real life, if asked.I would say my point is to draw attention to the hypocrasy of some posters on here. Hates religion - gets child Christened, loathes Christian views - celebrates Christmas, depises religion - goes to Christenings/ sends children to Christian schools, mocks religious people - fails to realise their own belief system (science) is based on them believing stuff they can not prove for themselves but have "faith" in.
I was christened. So what? I was a baby at the time, so hardly my doing!!! I was also confirmed, as I wasn't old or mature enough at the time to object to it. Then I grew up and realised just how distasteful organised religion actually is.
I refused to get married in a church, and our kids weren't christened, much to my mother's disappointment in both cases. I will go into a church for weddings and funerals out of respect for friends and family, as I place this more highly in my order of priorities than my dislike of organised religion, but I won't participate in the actual service.
None of our kids go to faith schools. We're lucky that there are very good secular schools near us, so we didn't have to move house. I would've moved house if necessary to avoid my kids being indoctrinated by their school.
I won't militantly force my views on religion on anyone else, but if asked, or if someone tries to force their views on me, I won't hold back.
I don't view any of this as being hypocritical. I just view it as taking a moral stance but allowing that to be slightly tempered by the fact that I'm neither Autistic nor a Psychopath.
EggsBenedict said:
So here you go:
1) I've never thought of myself as anti-religious, but I guess I am. ARE YOU OR NOT, MY SARCASAM DETECTOR IN ON THE BLINK?
2) If I'm invited to a Church wedding or a Christening, I'll go, not because I'm a hypocrite, but because I'm not rude. YOU ARE A POLITE HYPOCRITE
3) I became a godfather to a friend's child. I regret what I had to say at the time, and I certainly wouldn't ever do it again. However, I'm proud to have been asked, and I'm still proud to be a godfather. YOU ARE A GOOD FRIEND AND A HYPOCRITE
4) My daughter will start school at CofE St Margaret's because I don't have a choice - each of the 3 schools nearest me are attached to CofE churches. YOU DIDN'T CHOOSE WHERE TO LIVE?
5) I'll mock religious people's beliefs because I think they deserve it (the beliefs especially). CAN PEOPLE MOCK YOUR BELIEFS,WHAT ARE THEY?
6) I can't prove everything for myself that science has proved to be true, because (i) I don't have to - there are plenty of peer reviewed studies that I can read that illustrate beyond doubt that water is 2 atoms Hydrogen to one atom Oxygen, and therefore cannot possibly become wine, and (ii) for the more complex proofs, I have neither the expertise not the access to the specialist equipment needed to prove it to myself. YOU HAVE FAITH
7) Just because I can't prove that nothing moves faster than the speed of light for myself, this doesn't mean that I need accept that belief in any supernatural being that nobody has provided any evidence for as a valid hypothesis. YOU BELIEVE WHAT YOU HAVE BEEN TOLD
8) The true meaning of Christmas is family, giving and a tradition of merriment. Buggered if I'm going to miss out on that! THAT TRUE MEANING OF CHRISTMAS IS YOUR INTERPRETATION, CONVIENIENT.
I'm clearly not Dawkins - he's a professor and a renowned expert in his field. THAT'S NOT ALL HE IS
I'm clearly not Hitchens - he's dead. YOU MIGHT BE BEING POSSESSED BY HITCH
Sorry if that seems a bit barbed but it would be my interpretation of your position and differs from yours but with respect. I don't have issue with religious criticism but I don't care for mockery as it presupposes the mocker is in some way superior, when they simply have different beliefs.1) I've never thought of myself as anti-religious, but I guess I am. ARE YOU OR NOT, MY SARCASAM DETECTOR IN ON THE BLINK?
2) If I'm invited to a Church wedding or a Christening, I'll go, not because I'm a hypocrite, but because I'm not rude. YOU ARE A POLITE HYPOCRITE
3) I became a godfather to a friend's child. I regret what I had to say at the time, and I certainly wouldn't ever do it again. However, I'm proud to have been asked, and I'm still proud to be a godfather. YOU ARE A GOOD FRIEND AND A HYPOCRITE
4) My daughter will start school at CofE St Margaret's because I don't have a choice - each of the 3 schools nearest me are attached to CofE churches. YOU DIDN'T CHOOSE WHERE TO LIVE?
5) I'll mock religious people's beliefs because I think they deserve it (the beliefs especially). CAN PEOPLE MOCK YOUR BELIEFS,WHAT ARE THEY?
6) I can't prove everything for myself that science has proved to be true, because (i) I don't have to - there are plenty of peer reviewed studies that I can read that illustrate beyond doubt that water is 2 atoms Hydrogen to one atom Oxygen, and therefore cannot possibly become wine, and (ii) for the more complex proofs, I have neither the expertise not the access to the specialist equipment needed to prove it to myself. YOU HAVE FAITH
7) Just because I can't prove that nothing moves faster than the speed of light for myself, this doesn't mean that I need accept that belief in any supernatural being that nobody has provided any evidence for as a valid hypothesis. YOU BELIEVE WHAT YOU HAVE BEEN TOLD
8) The true meaning of Christmas is family, giving and a tradition of merriment. Buggered if I'm going to miss out on that! THAT TRUE MEANING OF CHRISTMAS IS YOUR INTERPRETATION, CONVIENIENT.
I'm clearly not Dawkins - he's a professor and a renowned expert in his field. THAT'S NOT ALL HE IS
I'm clearly not Hitchens - he's dead. YOU MIGHT BE BEING POSSESSED BY HITCH
Fair enough kermit power, nothing like me tarring everyone with the same brush
I send my lad to a C of E school and as a lapsed Catholic and agnostic I have no problem with the level of indoctrination directed at him as I feel the Christian values, the important part for me, out weigh any potential damage or confusion the school might cause.We talk about God, what gets taught at school, my views as well as other religions (his school is pretty good at this also to be fair). I do teach him tolerence and we don't choose to mock people from any religious faith. We're not saints mind, I'm indoctrinating him with a strong disdane for chavs.
Kermit power said:
Jaroon said:
My point is what I think is really going on is the vocal PH anti religious types are only vocal on PH and IRL don't give much of a monkies one way or the other. They just like to give the impression on here that they are C. Hitchens or R. Dawkins in which case good for them, it's what keyboards were invented for it would seem.
I would say my point is to draw attention to the hypocrasy of some posters on here. Hates religion - gets child Christened, loathes Christian views - celebrates Christmas, depises religion - goes to Christenings/ sends children to Christian schools, mocks religious people - fails to realise their own belief system (science) is based on them believing stuff they can not prove for themselves but have "faith" in.
I don't know about anyone else, but I won't say anything on here about religion that I wouldn't say in real life, if asked.I would say my point is to draw attention to the hypocrasy of some posters on here. Hates religion - gets child Christened, loathes Christian views - celebrates Christmas, depises religion - goes to Christenings/ sends children to Christian schools, mocks religious people - fails to realise their own belief system (science) is based on them believing stuff they can not prove for themselves but have "faith" in.
I was christened. So what? I was a baby at the time, so hardly my doing!!! I was also confirmed, as I wasn't old or mature enough at the time to object to it. Then I grew up and realised just how distasteful organised religion actually is.
I refused to get married in a church, and our kids weren't christened, much to my mother's disappointment in both cases. I will go into a church for weddings and funerals out of respect for friends and family, as I place this more highly in my order of priorities than my dislike of organised religion, but I won't participate in the actual service.
None of our kids go to faith schools. We're lucky that there are very good secular schools near us, so we didn't have to move house. I would've moved house if necessary to avoid my kids being indoctrinated by their school.
I won't militantly force my views on religion on anyone else, but if asked, or if someone tries to force their views on me, I won't hold back.
I don't view any of this as being hypocritical. I just view it as taking a moral stance but allowing that to be slightly tempered by the fact that I'm neither Autistic nor a Psychopath.
And I will happily have a discussion with anyone regarding religion and won't hold back on my views.
Jaroon said:
their own belief system (science) is based on them believing stuff they can not prove for themselves but have "faith" in.
No, it's about believing stuff that other people have provided peer reviewed evidence for.Personally, I have not conducted any experiments to show that the Earth isn't flat. But the fact that I don't believe it's flat is not a matter of faith. It's a matter of accepting peer reviewed evidence as proof of fact.
Jaroon said:
EggsBenedict said:
So here you go:
1) I've never thought of myself as anti-religious, but I guess I am. ARE YOU OR NOT, MY SARCASAM DETECTOR IN ON THE BLINK?
2) If I'm invited to a Church wedding or a Christening, I'll go, not because I'm a hypocrite, but because I'm not rude. YOU ARE A POLITE HYPOCRITE
3) I became a godfather to a friend's child. I regret what I had to say at the time, and I certainly wouldn't ever do it again. However, I'm proud to have been asked, and I'm still proud to be a godfather. YOU ARE A GOOD FRIEND AND A HYPOCRITE
4) My daughter will start school at CofE St Margaret's because I don't have a choice - each of the 3 schools nearest me are attached to CofE churches. YOU DIDN'T CHOOSE WHERE TO LIVE?
5) I'll mock religious people's beliefs because I think they deserve it (the beliefs especially). CAN PEOPLE MOCK YOUR BELIEFS,WHAT ARE THEY?
6) I can't prove everything for myself that science has proved to be true, because (i) I don't have to - there are plenty of peer reviewed studies that I can read that illustrate beyond doubt that water is 2 atoms Hydrogen to one atom Oxygen, and therefore cannot possibly become wine, and (ii) for the more complex proofs, I have neither the expertise not the access to the specialist equipment needed to prove it to myself. YOU HAVE FAITH
7) Just because I can't prove that nothing moves fa. Ister than the speed of light for myself, this doesn't mean that I need accept that belief in any supernatsociaural being that nobody has provided any evidence for as a valid hypothesis. YOU BELIEVE WHAT YOU HAVE BEEN TOLD
8) The true meaning of Christmas is family, giving and a tradition of merriment. Buggered if I'm going to miss out on that! THAT TRUE MEANING OF CHRISTMAS IS YOUR INTERPRETATION, CONVIENIENT.
I'm clearly not Dawkins - he's a professor and a renowned expert in his field. THAT'S NOT ALL HE IS
I'm clearly not Hitchens - he's dead. YOU MIGHT BE BEING POSSESSED BY HITCH
Sorry if that seems a bit barbed but it would be my interpretation of your position and differs from yours but with respect. I don't have issue with religious criticism but I don't care for mockery as it presupposes the mocker is in some way superior, when they simply have different beliefs1) I've never thought of myself as anti-religious, but I guess I am. ARE YOU OR NOT, MY SARCASAM DETECTOR IN ON THE BLINK?
2) If I'm invited to a Church wedding or a Christening, I'll go, not because I'm a hypocrite, but because I'm not rude. YOU ARE A POLITE HYPOCRITE
3) I became a godfather to a friend's child. I regret what I had to say at the time, and I certainly wouldn't ever do it again. However, I'm proud to have been asked, and I'm still proud to be a godfather. YOU ARE A GOOD FRIEND AND A HYPOCRITE
4) My daughter will start school at CofE St Margaret's because I don't have a choice - each of the 3 schools nearest me are attached to CofE churches. YOU DIDN'T CHOOSE WHERE TO LIVE?
5) I'll mock religious people's beliefs because I think they deserve it (the beliefs especially). CAN PEOPLE MOCK YOUR BELIEFS,WHAT ARE THEY?
6) I can't prove everything for myself that science has proved to be true, because (i) I don't have to - there are plenty of peer reviewed studies that I can read that illustrate beyond doubt that water is 2 atoms Hydrogen to one atom Oxygen, and therefore cannot possibly become wine, and (ii) for the more complex proofs, I have neither the expertise not the access to the specialist equipment needed to prove it to myself. YOU HAVE FAITH
7) Just because I can't prove that nothing moves fa. Ister than the speed of light for myself, this doesn't mean that I need accept that belief in any supernatsociaural being that nobody has provided any evidence for as a valid hypothesis. YOU BELIEVE WHAT YOU HAVE BEEN TOLD
8) The true meaning of Christmas is family, giving and a tradition of merriment. Buggered if I'm going to miss out on that! THAT TRUE MEANING OF CHRISTMAS IS YOUR INTERPRETATION, CONVIENIENT.
I'm clearly not Dawkins - he's a professor and a renowned expert in his field. THAT'S NOT ALL HE IS
I'm clearly not Hitchens - he's dead. YOU MIGHT BE BEING POSSESSED BY HITCH
2) No. By entering a religious establishment, I do not profess to believe anything that is taught therein. I just go to a building in which there is some sort of ceremony taking place, I am happy for those who have arrranged such a happening, and then I leave. I don't see the hypocrisy in this.
3) I am a retrospective hyprocrite at worst. At the time I agreed to be godfather I didn't have a stong belief one way or the other. So making the vows I did was not hypocritical. Looking back, I wish I didn't, but having comitted to some sort of capacity for spiritual guidance, I don't shirk that. If asked I will relate my views. If asked to guide, I will steer that one should consider evidence and apply critical thought. In an extreme case, this might end up making me a breaker of promises, but it does make me true to myself. I have already said (and I have acted on this) that I would refuse to be godfather to any more individuals.
4) Yes, 10 years ago. My daughter is 4. I work in an industry that is London-centric. I don't have a problem with what kids are taught, so long as it's not "believe this without justification or evidence". It's about degrees. If my kids were being taught that the holocaust never happened, this would annoy me, and I would speak to the head. However, I would want my kids to question why there was a slant toward this denial, rather than consideration of the available evidence.
5) Sure - mock away. I don't know what you want me to say here. Do I beleive in any supernatural beings/forces? No. I don't. I believe that some day, science will provide answers to where the universe came from, why we're here and so on. Until it does, I'm OK with not knowing. I don't have to slip some placeholder deity in while I'm waiting for the real answer.
6) Well, I kind of do. If i have faith, it's that there is a logical answer to everything, but we don't know all the answers yet. I have to prioritise my life. If I really want to understand particle physics, I can. But I don't have that luxury. If I say I don't know, but I'm happy to accept answers that do not involve the supernatural I am placing my faith in those who do the work, and do provide evidence based answers. Not those who quote a bronze age text without any other critical experimentation or evidence. I don't have that sort of faith.
7) Yes, but I also have read a why this is true from a number of sources. I have the option of going through the reams of documentation and mathematics for myself to prove to myself that this is indeed the case. Or, I have the option of reading a holy text and without any other test or collaborative evidence, I can conclude that the fossil record is a falsehood, and we're all descended from Adam and Eve. I have been 'told' both things in my life, but I choose to conclude that evolution is a far more likely truism than creationism. My choice is based on evidence.
8) I choose to make 25th Dec a time for generosity, merriment and goodwill. Much as the Christians chose to make the same time of the year a placeholder for the birth of Jesus. There is no record of when Jesus was supposedly born, so what I choose for that date is as valid as anyone elses choices. It happens that my choice of celebration coincides with lots of other peoples.
a) No, that isn't all Dawkins is, but it is enough to separate me from him
b) Possessed? OK, you provide the evidence, I'll believe you.
I don't think mockery is about superiority. It's a type of criticism. I don't believe that religion should be afforded any sort of respect as much as I beleive that any other evidence-less idea should be given respect.
Hopefully this clears my position up.
Jaroon said:
loathes Christian views - celebrates Christmas,
Christianity co-opted what was a pagan winter festival as a popularity exercise, I'm sure you'll agree it worked fairly well as there aren't many practising pagans about. These days it's mostly a secular beano as few people pay more heed than that required to attend midnight mass on Christmas eve.Gassing Station | The Lounge | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff