Wife wants sprog Christened - I don't.
Discussion
If its any help GTOScott, i feel exactly the same as you about kids/religion. If my OH told me she was pregnant i would be suicidal, i have NEVER wanted to be a father ever.
I can tell by your posts your an intelligent person, dont let the high horse brigade change your opinions to suit the masses.
I hope everything works out for you mate.
I can tell by your posts your an intelligent person, dont let the high horse brigade change your opinions to suit the masses.
I hope everything works out for you mate.
- dons flamesuit*
I don't understand why the OP is being given such a hard time. He can't help the way he feels about becoming a father and it's brave of him to be honest and upfront about it.
OP, if you don't believe in God I don't really think you need to be worried. I know many people who are born into religion and have become atheists, then there's people who are born into one religion and convert to another, even people born into an atheist upbringing can later choose to accept a religion. Being christened isn't an obstacle to religious exploration.
OP, if you don't believe in God I don't really think you need to be worried. I know many people who are born into religion and have become atheists, then there's people who are born into one religion and convert to another, even people born into an atheist upbringing can later choose to accept a religion. Being christened isn't an obstacle to religious exploration.
GTO Scott said:
Whilst I am an atheist I have no issue with the religious leanings of others - all I want is for sprog to be able to make her own choice.
The last Christian fanatic who stopped me in the street didn't get the idea of choice. But then he also called me an idiot for not believing in god, and that god would send me to hell.
Stand firm, this is the thin end of the wedge. If religion has any place in modern society, should be about personal choice, not child indoctrination. If your wife wants a party, let her have a non-religious one. The last Christian fanatic who stopped me in the street didn't get the idea of choice. But then he also called me an idiot for not believing in god, and that god would send me to hell.
I would never have let my kids be christened, for exactly the reasons you mentioned.
Dimski said:
If the child chooses to follow, they make their own decision to be Confirmed, which typically happens in the early teenage years.
I'd argue about "their own decision". I was confirmed in the Roman Catholic church at age 11. It was part of the school syllabus at my primary school, I wasn't asked if I wanted it. At that point I already knew that I was an atheist.Had my parents been content for me to go to the local secular infant and primary school I'd never even have been baptised (I was four when I was baptised, a few months before I started infant school).
bozibo said:
OK - well (prepares to be slated by fellow pistonheaders) as a C of E lay minister responsible for preparing parents for their child's baptism/christening (same thing) I have lots of experience in this department (although not as Methodist - I drink - a lot!!).
I often see couples where one parent is keen and the other not. Usually the parent who's not keen is willing to go along with it for their partner's sake. In these cases I always suggest the partner who doesn't particularly want the baptism should stand up with the godparents when it comes to the time to make the promises but shouldn't actually say the words. It's not necessary for both partners to have to make the promises. However the service does involve a promise to bring the child up 'in the family of the church'. Is that what your wife wants? to go to church fairly regularly?
If not then I would suggest a Thanksgiving service. It's a service in church where you can invite whoever you want and the minister gives thanks for the birth of the child. You can have the service, have the party, have the child blessed - but not make promises you don't mean. Then, later on, if you decide you want to, you can have her christened/baptised. Or you can leave it to her to make her own mind up.
No need to have her christened at an early age. The main reasons people try to have them 'done' when they're tiny is either - because they have a handed down christening gown that needs to fit, because it's 'tradition' (i.e. the grandparents want it) or because they believe you don't go to heaven if you're not christened (I don't believe that) and they don't want to take any chances.
Don't know if that helps at all?
Just wanted to say this is IMO the best and most balanced post on the whole thread.I often see couples where one parent is keen and the other not. Usually the parent who's not keen is willing to go along with it for their partner's sake. In these cases I always suggest the partner who doesn't particularly want the baptism should stand up with the godparents when it comes to the time to make the promises but shouldn't actually say the words. It's not necessary for both partners to have to make the promises. However the service does involve a promise to bring the child up 'in the family of the church'. Is that what your wife wants? to go to church fairly regularly?
If not then I would suggest a Thanksgiving service. It's a service in church where you can invite whoever you want and the minister gives thanks for the birth of the child. You can have the service, have the party, have the child blessed - but not make promises you don't mean. Then, later on, if you decide you want to, you can have her christened/baptised. Or you can leave it to her to make her own mind up.
No need to have her christened at an early age. The main reasons people try to have them 'done' when they're tiny is either - because they have a handed down christening gown that needs to fit, because it's 'tradition' (i.e. the grandparents want it) or because they believe you don't go to heaven if you're not christened (I don't believe that) and they don't want to take any chances.
Don't know if that helps at all?
onomatopoeia said:
bozibo said:
OK - well (prepares to be slated by fellow pistonheaders) as a C of E lay minister responsible for preparing parents for their child's baptism/christening (same thing) I have lots of experience in this department (although not as Methodist - I drink - a lot!!).
I often see couples where one parent is keen and the other not. Usually the parent who's not keen is willing to go along with it for their partner's sake. In these cases I always suggest the partner who doesn't particularly want the baptism should stand up with the godparents when it comes to the time to make the promises but shouldn't actually say the words. It's not necessary for both partners to have to make the promises. However the service does involve a promise to bring the child up 'in the family of the church'. Is that what your wife wants? to go to church fairly regularly?
If not then I would suggest a Thanksgiving service. It's a service in church where you can invite whoever you want and the minister gives thanks for the birth of the child. You can have the service, have the party, have the child blessed - but not make promises you don't mean. Then, later on, if you decide you want to, you can have her christened/baptised. Or you can leave it to her to make her own mind up.
No need to have her christened at an early age. The main reasons people try to have them 'done' when they're tiny is either - because they have a handed down christening gown that needs to fit, because it's 'tradition' (i.e. the grandparents want it) or because they believe you don't go to heaven if you're not christened (I don't believe that) and they don't want to take any chances.
Don't know if that helps at all?
Just wanted to say this is IMO the best and most balanced post on the whole thread.I often see couples where one parent is keen and the other not. Usually the parent who's not keen is willing to go along with it for their partner's sake. In these cases I always suggest the partner who doesn't particularly want the baptism should stand up with the godparents when it comes to the time to make the promises but shouldn't actually say the words. It's not necessary for both partners to have to make the promises. However the service does involve a promise to bring the child up 'in the family of the church'. Is that what your wife wants? to go to church fairly regularly?
If not then I would suggest a Thanksgiving service. It's a service in church where you can invite whoever you want and the minister gives thanks for the birth of the child. You can have the service, have the party, have the child blessed - but not make promises you don't mean. Then, later on, if you decide you want to, you can have her christened/baptised. Or you can leave it to her to make her own mind up.
No need to have her christened at an early age. The main reasons people try to have them 'done' when they're tiny is either - because they have a handed down christening gown that needs to fit, because it's 'tradition' (i.e. the grandparents want it) or because they believe you don't go to heaven if you're not christened (I don't believe that) and they don't want to take any chances.
Don't know if that helps at all?
It doesn't bode well for the OP's future relationship with the child.
The OP cites the dog's "unconditional love" to him, but seemingly hasn't considered that this too is what you give to and receive from your children.
Sorry - too sensible?
... smash her back doors in, throw a can of red bull at the child, etc.
I wanted to reiterate a warning that a couple of other parents have said which has so far been ignored.
IMHO - kids aren't much fun for the first few months (at least).
In fact, they are outrageously hard work:
Poop
No sleep
Angry irrational wife
Expensive
Irrational
No sleep
Loads more poop
"Sex" - remember that??
It would make me incredibly sad to find the OP throwing in the towel on the whole family after 6 months when if he stuck it out a while longer it just gets better and better and frankly awesome and "I know we can't afford it but let's have another one" etc...
Of my male friends with kids who are man enough to admit it - the first 6 months pretty much sucked.
Incredibly hard work with almost no reward.
The OP seems really willing so hopefully he will remember that like the dog they aren't just for Christmas... or in his case not even for Christmas - no pressies exchanged presumably or do you just happily take one from the wife??
Regarding the Christening - I am in the "go for the easy life" camp and stuff your principles.
1. The wife is in no state to argue with rationally.
2. It's meaningless to you.
3. Get some atheist mates in as God parents - that'll learn her.
4. It's a fun day where there is a slim chance you will feel good about the kid because EVERYONE will tell you how beautiful she is.
5. Other people will happily play with her all day.
6. Now you have put up a bit of a fight, your wife will appreciate you compromising.
(Number 6 is a lie, your argument is invalid - it's all your fault, you have no idea how painful childbirth is/chapped nipples are/having no sleep is, earn more money NOW, get rid of the f
king dog it ate the kid's shoe, we need more money, I want a bugaboo, etc...)
Also if it's not too late - get yourself along to NCT classes - you will never meet a more clearly-crapping-themselves-about-what's-about-to-happen group of fellas and you will feel much better.
IMHO - kids aren't much fun for the first few months (at least).
In fact, they are outrageously hard work:
Poop
No sleep
Angry irrational wife
Expensive
Irrational
No sleep
Loads more poop
"Sex" - remember that??
It would make me incredibly sad to find the OP throwing in the towel on the whole family after 6 months when if he stuck it out a while longer it just gets better and better and frankly awesome and "I know we can't afford it but let's have another one" etc...
Of my male friends with kids who are man enough to admit it - the first 6 months pretty much sucked.
Incredibly hard work with almost no reward.
The OP seems really willing so hopefully he will remember that like the dog they aren't just for Christmas... or in his case not even for Christmas - no pressies exchanged presumably or do you just happily take one from the wife??
Regarding the Christening - I am in the "go for the easy life" camp and stuff your principles.
1. The wife is in no state to argue with rationally.
2. It's meaningless to you.
3. Get some atheist mates in as God parents - that'll learn her.
4. It's a fun day where there is a slim chance you will feel good about the kid because EVERYONE will tell you how beautiful she is.
5. Other people will happily play with her all day.
6. Now you have put up a bit of a fight, your wife will appreciate you compromising.
(Number 6 is a lie, your argument is invalid - it's all your fault, you have no idea how painful childbirth is/chapped nipples are/having no sleep is, earn more money NOW, get rid of the f
king dog it ate the kid's shoe, we need more money, I want a bugaboo, etc...)Also if it's not too late - get yourself along to NCT classes - you will never meet a more clearly-crapping-themselves-about-what's-about-to-happen group of fellas and you will feel much better.
I think maybe we were a bit harsh on the OP too.
Probably needs to grow up a bit and stop being such a spoilt brat and children ruining his beautifully planned (clearly only his head, since his wife wanted a child!) life, but it he really feels that strongly about christening, specifically, I'm not sure he shouldn't stand his ground a bit.
A marriage is supposed to be a partnership. He's (hopefully) accepted that he's going to have responsibilities he might not have chosen for his wife's sake, so maybe she should give a little and have the little 'un christened when she's old enough to express an opinion. Clearly she's not a deeply religious woman or she would have insisted on a religious wedding ceremony (of course, that may be what she gave in on, we don't know...)
It's a tricky one, though, is NOT christening a Child because of your beliefs any better than doing so? You might find it hard to get into the nice local Church affiliated infant schools, for example, or the child might want to marry in a Church one day and not have the option.
I'm not Christened and neither are either of my kids (and we all went to CofE schools at one time too
).
M.
Probably needs to grow up a bit and stop being such a spoilt brat and children ruining his beautifully planned (clearly only his head, since his wife wanted a child!) life, but it he really feels that strongly about christening, specifically, I'm not sure he shouldn't stand his ground a bit.
A marriage is supposed to be a partnership. He's (hopefully) accepted that he's going to have responsibilities he might not have chosen for his wife's sake, so maybe she should give a little and have the little 'un christened when she's old enough to express an opinion. Clearly she's not a deeply religious woman or she would have insisted on a religious wedding ceremony (of course, that may be what she gave in on, we don't know...)
It's a tricky one, though, is NOT christening a Child because of your beliefs any better than doing so? You might find it hard to get into the nice local Church affiliated infant schools, for example, or the child might want to marry in a Church one day and not have the option.
I'm not Christened and neither are either of my kids (and we all went to CofE schools at one time too
).M.
GTO Scott said:
DaveL485 said:
Same here. I've seen many people with this ethos change opinion in a few short months after birth. Myself included.
I really hope that is the case - for sake of the child, my wife and myself.He melted like an ice cube in a bonfire as soon as it was born. You will too.
As for the christening, stop making such a big deal out of it. Your wife is pregnant and highly emotional. Let her have her way, this is one of many sacrifices you are going to have to make over the coming years.
Save your fight for the important battles
Let her crack on with it, as others have said, you don't need to say any of the prayers or promises yourself and the child will have her own mind, whether you like it or not, on the subject of religion, education, fashion, boyfriends etc.
Ps, here is the previous thread alluded to earlier. Needless to say, the OP later abou how his own feeling changed, and although your feelings might not change, ther chances are they will, so fingers crossed for you & your family.
Ps, here is the previous thread alluded to earlier. Needless to say, the OP later abou how his own feeling changed, and although your feelings might not change, ther chances are they will, so fingers crossed for you & your family.
VoziKaoFangio said:
Gateway drug. Nice work. Gots to keep them pews filled and those trays a-rattlin'!
:-)
Hardly anyone ever puts any money in the tray during christening or thanksgiving services. The churches are usually kept afloat by the regulars. The odd bit you get at one off type services is very small. :-)
Edited by bozibo on Tuesday 9th October 19:26
marcosgt said:
It's a tricky one, though, is NOT christening a Child because of your beliefs any better than doing so? You might find it hard to get into the nice local Church affiliated infant schools, for example, or the child might want to marry in a Church one day and not have the option.
M.
It's no longer a requirement (in CofE at least) to have been baptised in order to be married in church. This changed a few years ago.M.
Many church schools now require more than just baptism to get you high on the list for admittance. Round here they write to the church and the minister has to confirm that they are regular attenders.
It's also a common misconception (no pun intended!) that the godparents care for the child if something happens to the parents. The proper role of godparents is to take an interest in the child as they are growing up and look out for them. To be someone to moan to when they've fallen out with mum & dad.
As for the OP's point about not wanting children - I can understand that. If you haven't planned to have children or even seriously considered it then the thought of the change that is about to be made to your life for the forseeable future can be terrifying. It can be terrifying even if you have planned it!
I hope it all works out for the family.
bozibo said:
Round here they write to the church and the minister has to confirm that they are regular attenders.
Regular meaning every other week until their child's place is confirmed, then never again until the child gets married.As I said, CofE schools,made up of 10% the kids of Christians, 90% the kids of liars.
ClaphamGT3 said:
TwigtheWonderkid said:
Regular meaning every other week until their child's place is confirmed, then never again until the child gets married.
As I said, CofE schools,made up of 10% the kids of Christians, 90% the kids of liars.
Given God doesn't exist who are the real liars?..As I said, CofE schools,made up of 10% the kids of Christians, 90% the kids of liars.
.
Just be aware that baptism numbers are one of the backbone reasons that the Church has bishops in the House of Lords. People may well say "well, it is harmless", but if enough people do it the church can point to the numbers of 'religious' who may well not be religious. This is why secular organisations advertised for people to actually put down their true beliefs on the census, rather than just ticking what religion they are 'culturally'. They had some interesting figures associated with it as well.
If it is being done on religious grounds, fine, if not, then I wouldn't bother.
If it is being done on religious grounds, fine, if not, then I wouldn't bother.
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