Revising A Builder Invoice - Am I being Unreasonable

[GG89]

Very odd. Why would you get involved in helping them out? As soon as you noticed they were cowboys you should have told them to down tools and get someone in who knew what they were doing. Unless of course they were cheap as chips in the first instance. Two sides to every story and we are only hearing one side I'm afraid.

[mjb1]

IN51GHT said:

mjb1 said:

Is it definitely an invoice and not a receipt?
Is it hand written or printed? i.e. is there any way he could claim that you've amended it yourself?
Is he VAT registered?

Invoice, printed (pdf file sent to me) yes he is vat registered.

I don't think he's got any comeback from that then. He billed you minus the 'customer reduction' discount, and you then paid the invoiced amount. It's clear he agreed to the discount otherwise he wouldn't/shouldn't have put it on the invoice. He can't ask for more without generating a new invoice (for vat purposes), and that'll look daft at this stage.

[sone]

mjb1 said:

IN51GHT said:

mjb1 said:

Is it definitely an invoice and not a receipt?
Is it hand written or printed? i.e. is there any way he could claim that you've amended it yourself?
Is he VAT registered?

Invoice, printed (pdf file sent to me) yes he is vat registered.

I don't think he's got any comeback from that then. He billed you minus the 'customer reduction' discount, and you then paid the invoiced amount. It's clear he agreed to the discount otherwise he wouldn't/shouldn't have put it on the invoice. He can't ask for more without generating a new invoice (for vat purposes), and that'll look daft at this stage.

Can't see what relevance the vat is?
He could raise a vat invoice and credit it if his attempt failed. I think unless the invoice states full and final invoice or specifics between the tendered price and final amount he could always come back up to his original price.

[mjb1]

sone said:

Can't see what relevance the vat is?
He could raise a vat invoice and credit it if his attempt failed. I think unless the invoice states full and final invoice or specifics between the tendered price and final amount he could always come back up to his original price.

It's not, directly. But if the builder is asking for the money that wasn't on the previous invoice, then he needs to issue another one to cover it. Otherwise it'd be VAT fraud, and the OP hasn't mentioned another invoice. And if he does raise another invoice, nearly a year later, how odd does that look? The original invoice shows the agreed price, the discount, and the amount payable. I very much doubt there's any way back from that, on the balance or probability it appears it was settled with the previous payment, and he's trying it on now.

I still don't agree with the OP charging 20 hours at £50/hr for acting as foreman, £20 to £30/hr would be more realistic for the role. But the builder has shot himself in the foot with that invoice, he should not have issued it with the discount.

[sone]

mjb1 said:

sone said:

Can't see what relevance the vat is?
He could raise a vat invoice and credit it if his attempt failed. I think unless the invoice states full and final invoice or specifics between the tendered price and final amount he could always come back up to his original price.

It's not, directly. But if the builder is asking for the money that wasn't on the previous invoice, then he needs to issue another one to cover it. Otherwise it'd be VAT fraud, and the OP hasn't mentioned another invoice. And if he does raise another invoice, nearly a year later, how odd does that look? The original invoice shows the agreed price, the discount, and the amount payable. I very much doubt there's any way back from that, on the balance or probability it appears it was settled with the previous payment, and he's trying it on now.

I still don't agree with the OP charging 20 hours at £50/hr for acting as foreman, £20 to £30/hr would be more realistic for the role. But the builder has shot himself in the foot with that invoice, he should not have issued it with the discount.

Completely lost me, the vat would be applicable at the time the invoice was raised whether its additional to the original invoice or not is ittelevant. HMRC won't care what where or how they get their money.
From a different angle the invoice wasn't as his quote therefore there's a disparity. Unless the discount amount is defined I could see him coming back for more, he could simply say he's made an error on his invoice.

[Jasandjules]

sone said:

Unless the discount amount is defined I could see him coming back for more, he could simply say he's made an error on his invoice.

The discount is defined as a client deduction.

There are (according to the information provided) no caveats on the deduction either. Therefore it would appear that an invoice has been raised by the builder and paid in full by the OP.

Job done.

[sone]

Jasandjules said:

sone said:

Unless the discount amount is defined I could see him coming back for more, he could simply say he's made an error on his invoice.

The discount is defined as a client deduction.

There are (according to the information provided) no caveats on the deduction either. Therefore it would appear that an invoice has been raised by the builder and paid in full by the OP.

Job done.

Yes but if the amount of client deduction isn't specified on the invoice he could go back for a balance. In other words he could say the amount of discount deducted was £50 so he's still owed. However if the invoice says £20k less 1k agreed client deduction, then I believe he couldn't come back (obviously figures are indicative).
Be interesting to know if the builders quote was an estimate or a quote as well as he could come back on the basis of it being an estimate.
I think people think there's a time limit on this as well, I recently had an invoice from Jewsons that was 15 months old for about 5-6k initially my response was to tell them to bugger off. I was advised to the contrary we had to pay, even though the error was theirs in the first instance.

[anonymous-user]

To be honest, I would guess that in most 'building' situations the Quote/Estimate and the final invoice do not tally up.

Invoice is all that matters. Quote is just an estimate.

[hairyben]

You seem to have gone about this in a peculiar manner. Why didn't you fire the "builders" when it was clear they were unable to carry out the task to a satisfactory standard, perhaps offering the gangmaster the opportunity to supply someone suitably skilled if he wished to fulfil the contract?

[sone]

garyhun said:

To be honest, I would guess that in most 'building' situations the Quote/Estimate and the final invoice do not tally up.

Invoice is all that matters. Quote is just an estimate.

I think you're right about the tallying up but a quote is specific an estimate is a best guess, estimation, finger in the air!

[Jamster123]

This is all very wrong.

You witnessed guys who you deemed incompetent working on your property....rather than call the boss and voice your concerns, you done a shift with them then try and bill the company for £50 an hour. Im sorry to me thats a bit bizarre.

If I had guys working at mines, and they needed a hand, providing I had time, Id do all I could to help. Billing the company for my time? Ridiculous.

The fact you had to help due to the incompetence of the workers, completely changes the scenario. You should have called the boss immediately.

[IN51GHT]

Had an invoice hand delivered today also, we were out, suspect he wanted to "put the frighteners" on us.

I've simply replied wit the original invoice, detailing all payments made, date s& amounts, which total the amount on the original invoice he issued. Account was cleared prior to this additional invoice arriving.

[Sump]

You deserve nothing on the basis you went about this in such a retarded manner.

[IN51GHT]

Sump said:

You deserve nothing on the basis you went about this in such a retarded manner.

What a charmer.

In fact, are you my builder? You have a similar charm.....

Edited by IN51GHT on Sunday 21st December 19:47

[rsv gone!]

A few questions;

1. When he 'invoiced' you originally (before you deducted the money) was it actually an invoice? ie did it have VAT on it?
2. Or did he send you an application and then subsequently send an invoice for the vat on what you'd actually paid?
3. Or did you not pay until you'd received the reduced invoice?
4. Was there ever any agreement in writing to the lesser sum, besides what sounds like an ambiguously worded invoice?

[Gareth79]

Jamster123 said:

This is all very wrong.

You witnessed guys who you deemed incompetent working on your property....rather than call the boss and voice your concerns, you done a shift with them then try and bill the company for £50 an hour. Im sorry to me thats a bit bizarre.

Earlier in the thread he said he did repeatedly called the boss to come and ensure the work was completed competently, and the boss refused. It was then agreed he would assist and the boss agreed he would be compensated. The problem is the amount wasn't explicitly agreed.

[Leptons]

mjb1 said:

It's not, directly. But if the builder is asking for the money that wasn't on the previous invoice, then he needs to issue another one to cover it. Otherwise it'd be VAT fraud, and the OP hasn't mentioned another invoice. And if he does raise another invoice, nearly a year later, how odd does that look? The original invoice shows the agreed price, the discount, and the amount payable. I very much doubt there's any way back from that, on the balance or probability it appears it was settled with the previous payment, and he's trying it on now.

I still don't agree with the OP charging 20 hours at £50/hr for acting as foreman, £20 to £30/hr would be more realistic for the role. But the builder has shot himself in the foot with that invoice, he should not have issued it with the discount.

Is £20 to £30 an hour a typical hourly rate for someone over seeing a two bit extension job.?

OP; is your time Really £50 an hour? I can understand your annoyance at having to get involved but I suspect the builder thinks you're bending him over here.

Having said that I don't see how he has a leg to stand on as he accepted the amount at the time.

[sone]

Leptons said:

mjb1 said:

It's not, directly. But if the builder is asking for the money that wasn't on the previous invoice, then he needs to issue another one to cover it. Otherwise it'd be VAT fraud, and the OP hasn't mentioned another invoice. And if he does raise another invoice, nearly a year later, how odd does that look? The original invoice shows the agreed price, the discount, and the amount payable. I very much doubt there's any way back from that, on the balance or probability it appears it was settled with the previous payment, and he's trying it on now.

I still don't agree with the OP charging 20 hours at £50/hr for acting as foreman, £20 to £30/hr would be more realistic for the role. But the builder has shot himself in the foot with that invoice, he should not have issued it with the discount.

Is £20 to £30 an hour a typical hourly rate for someone over seeing a two bit extension job.?

OP; is your time Really £50 an hour? I can understand your annoyance at having to get involved but I suspect the builder thinks you're bending him over here.

Having said that I don't see how he has a leg to stand on as he accepted the amount at the time.

Yes and this is my annoyance I'm sure I could wind my earning rate up to £50-60 and more per hour if I chose to do so. However if I stepped into the breach and decided to become foreman builder ( when I'm not qualified) I'd expect to work at their rate at not mine. I'm sick to death of reading that people resent paying builders more than £150 per day or whatever and in the next breath tell us all they're worth £50 per hour ie £400 per day.
The correct way to deal with this was to call in the foreman and get him to sort it. Otherwise determine the contract and get someone else in!

[Sump]

IN51GHT said:

Sump said:

You deserve nothing on the basis you went about this in such a retarded manner.

What a charmer.

In fact, are you my builder? You have a similar charm.....

Edited by IN51GHT on Sunday 21st December 19:47

I'm not surprised if he's having to put up with some of your shenanigans!

[IN51GHT]

He's now threatening CCJ's or removal of the conservatory roof.