never forget WW2

[9mm]

PZR said:

9mm said:

Crossflow Kid said:

Eric Mc said:

I've read quite a few books written by the losers too - and they are often even more interesting.

Ok, let me be more specific.
Victors write the history books which are used in schools as anything else would be (mistakenly) seen as approving of the Nazis/Japs.

Not strictly true. Try and find anything about the Rape of Nanking in Japanese textbooks for example.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but do you have any personal experience of what's in - or what's not in - "Japanese textbooks"?

The fact is that there are even University courses on the wider subject of 'war crimes' and related topics. The academic world in Japan is not controlled by some dark unseen hand, and fierce debate has been raging for many years. You'll probably never get to hear much about it because it's in Japanese...

No offence taken. I have never visited Japan, cannot read Japanese and have never read a Japanese publication. The same is true of other places about which I have some fairly strong opinions, including Germany and Russia.

There's certainly some fierce debate, not least because there appear to be too many people in prominent positions who deny Japan's war crimes history or seek to minimise it. That's not a significant feature of say, German society.

Would you give this article any credibility? It's just one of the latest of hundreds of such pieces produced by reputable historians and journalists over the last thirty years or so and they are what I base my opinions on.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-21226068

[PZR]

9mm said:

Would you give this article any credibility? It's just one of the latest of hundreds of such pieces produced by reputable historians and journalists over the last thirty years or so and they are what I base my opinions on.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-21226068

I've read a fair bit of Mariko Oi's stuff for the BBC over the last couple of years and her own feelings are clear. However, in the article you cite she seems slightly more even-handed than usual. The article even shows that Nanjing is mentioned in the ( high ) school syllabus, along with similar topics. I can tell you that there's no real whitewashing, and things are certainly a lot more open at the University stage. Vox-pop kids on the street and you'll - typically - get the "we don't know about that" answers, but a lot of that is standard Japanese reluctance to get into what might become an awkward topic.

The point I'd like to make is about the trotting out of the "it's not in Japanese school books" line, when that's actually not the case. Such topics are not systematically 'hidden' in the way that many from outside Japan would have us believe. And let's not forget that rounded education is not solely down to what may or may not be in a school syllabus.

I've spent a lot of time in Japan over the last 27-odd years, and this topic is one that I've taken a great interest in. With an uncle who was with the Chindits in Burma and a father in law who was an Imperial Japanese Navy surgeon, I've come to understand that there are ( more than ) two sides to the story.

[9mm]

PZR said:

9mm said:

Would you give this article any credibility? It's just one of the latest of hundreds of such pieces produced by reputable historians and journalists over the last thirty years or so and they are what I base my opinions on.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-21226068

I've read a fair bit of Mariko Oi's stuff for the BBC over the last couple of years and her own feelings are clear. However, in the article you cite she seems slightly more even-handed than usual. The article even shows that Nanjing is mentioned in the ( high ) school syllabus, along with similar topics. I can tell you that there's no real whitewashing, and things are certainly a lot more open at the University stage. Vox-pop kids on the street and you'll - typically - get the "we don't know about that" answers, but a lot of that is standard Japanese reluctance to get into what might become an awkward topic.

The point I'd like to make is about the trotting out of the "it's not in Japanese school books" line, when that's actually not the case. Such topics are not systematically 'hidden' in the way that many from outside Japan would have us believe. And let's not forget that rounded education is not solely down to what may or may not be in a school syllabus.

I've spent a lot of time in Japan over the last 27-odd years, and this topic is one that I've taken a great interest in. With an uncle who was with the Chindits in Burma and a father in law who was an Imperial Japanese Navy surgeon, I've come to understand that there are ( more than ) two sides to the story.

Only a fool would claim that there aren't (at least) two sides to a story but we can't get away from documented atrocities committed by Japanese soldiers rather outweighing those committed by Allied Forces in the Far East Theatre.

I think the salient points are that subjects like Nanking or Unit 731 are rather glossed over more than omitted and that's linked to the comment you make about some Japanese not wanting to get involved in an awkward discussion. One of the things that has helped Germany put her Nazi past behind her is a willingness to confront it openly. Even they couldn't do it for many years and it seems that the Japanese are still some way behind them.

Edited by 9mm on Friday 18th April 15:00

[dudleybloke]

plus lots of germans got tried for war crimes, and still do all these years later but not many japanese had to face up to their crimes.
this has to leave a sour taste for those victims of the japanese as the victims of nazis could feel that at least some justice was done.

[Finlandia]

TwigtheWonderkid said:

There's a synagogue quite near me and the side streets on a Saturday are chocca with Volvos (popular with Jews who want a quality car but prefer to avoid German).

The synagogue car park is of course empty because you're not allowed to drive on the Sabbath.

A bit odd, seeing as Sweden was rather good buddies and big trading partners with Adolf & co.

[TwigtheWonderkid]

Finlandia said:

TwigtheWonderkid said:

There's a synagogue quite near me and the side streets on a Saturday are chocca with Volvos (popular with Jews who want a quality car but prefer to avoid German).

The synagogue car park is of course empty because you're not allowed to drive on the Sabbath.

A bit odd, seeing as Sweden was rather good buddies and big trading partners with Adolf & co.

They were neutral. They did indeed trade with Nazi Germany, mainly in iron ore. But they also acted as a safe haven for north European jews, from Holland, Belgium and in particular Denmark; they resettled thousands of Danish Jews.

[PZR]

9mm said:

Only a fool would claim that there aren't (at least) two sides to a story but we can't get away from documented atrocities committed by Japanese soldiers rather outweighing those committed by Allied Forces in the Far East Theatre.

In the case of Nanjing, the quote of 300,000 dead originated from one source, and has stuck. The true figure is more likely to be far, far less, but anyone pointing this out is accused of being a denier and a revisionist. No denying that terrible things happened on an enormous scale, but that scale is actually not very well 'documented'. One of the problems with trying to get to the truth is that it all became political ammunition with one side talking it up and the other down. That continues to this day, and - unfortunately - the current regimes in China and Korea are still trying to use it all against modern Japan. That creates a knee-jerk reaction (especially amongst the far right in Japan) so we end up with everything being polarised again and nothing gets discussed properly.

Please make no mistake, I'm not any kind of revisionist or denier. I abhor what went on and I can't stand the ultra right in Japan. Luckily they are actually a minority that the anti-Japanese take far too much notice of.

On the other hand, I don't think you'll read or hear very much about allied atrocities against the Japanese, for obvious reasons.

9mm said:

I think the salient points are that subjects like Nanking or Unit 731 are rather glossed over more than omitted and that's linked to the comment you make about some Japanese not wanting to get involved in an awkward discussion. One of the things that has helped Germany put her Nazi past behind her is a willingness to confront it openly. Even they couldn't do it for many years and it seems that the Japanese are still some way behind them.

Edited by 9mm on Friday 18th April 15:00

Once again, I don't think such things are "glossed over" at all. They are still hot topics of debate and are well known to the average well educated Japanese citizen. However - as I've mentioned - such things are still being used as political footballs and the Chinese government has been actively fostering anti-Japanese feeling over the last few years, and this polarises opinions. We won't see Japan apologising again and 'reflecting' on its errors again when for it to do so is seen by some as yet another opportunity to seek advantage from it. It's no good signing treaties and accepting reparations, but then saying that they "don't count" when it suits you years down the line...

[9mm]

PZR said:

9mm said:

Only a fool would claim that there aren't (at least) two sides to a story but we can't get away from documented atrocities committed by Japanese soldiers rather outweighing those committed by Allied Forces in the Far East Theatre.

In the case of Nanjing, the quote of 300,000 dead originated from one source, and has stuck. The true figure is more likely to be far, far less, but anyone pointing this out is accused of being a denier and a revisionist. No denying that terrible things happened on an enormous scale, but that scale is actually not very well 'documented'. One of the problems with trying to get to the truth is that it all became political ammunition with one side talking it up and the other down. That continues to this day, and - unfortunately - the current regimes in China and Korea are still trying to use it all against modern Japan. That creates a knee-jerk reaction (especially amongst the far right in Japan) so we end up with everything being polarised again and nothing gets discussed properly.

Please make no mistake, I'm not any kind of revisionist or denier. I abhor what went on and I can't stand the ultra right in Japan. Luckily they are actually a minority that the anti-Japanese take far too much notice of.

On the other hand, I don't think you'll read or hear very much about allied atrocities against the Japanese, for obvious reasons.

9mm said:

I think the salient points are that subjects like Nanking or Unit 731 are rather glossed over more than omitted and that's linked to the comment you make about some Japanese not wanting to get involved in an awkward discussion. One of the things that has helped Germany put her Nazi past behind her is a willingness to confront it openly. Even they couldn't do it for many years and it seems that the Japanese are still some way behind them.

Edited by 9mm on Friday 18th April 15:00

Once again, I don't think such things are "glossed over" at all. They are still hot topics of debate and are well known to the average well educated Japanese citizen. However - as I've mentioned - such things are still being used as political footballs and the Chinese government has been actively fostering anti-Japanese feeling over the last few years, and this polarises opinions. We won't see Japan apologising again and 'reflecting' on its errors again when for it to do so is seen by some as yet another opportunity to seek advantage from it. It's no good signing treaties and accepting reparations, but then saying that they "don't count" when it suits you years down the line...

The reason you won't hear about Allied atrocities against the Japanese is that they pale into insignificance in comparison. Mainland Japan was not subjected to invasion whereas just about everywhere the Japanese went they committed vile atrocities against civilians and military. The best anyone will come up with in terms of Allied crimes is against Japanese combatants and they won't begin to compare with what the Japanese did. We could start with survival rates of Japanese in Allied pow camps compared to those of Allied soldiers in Japanese camps...

[Old Merc]

As a kid(born 1947)my mum often said,"the only good German was a dead one".My father was blinded and lost a hand serving with the RAF in WW2,my mum`s brother was killed,my Grand Parents house(along with the rest of the neighborhood)was destroyed in the Blitz,even my mum broke an arm during an air raid.With that experience no wonder she said that,but time changes attitudes.Germany is now a peaceful,prosperous,democracy.Mind you I think Germany & Japan got everything they deserved during WW2.
Thinking back my father was not bitter or what ever because he paid for me to go on a school holiday to Germany in 1960 when money was really tight.Sadly he did not live to see the next part of our family story.I wonder what he would have said??
My son stationed in Germany serving in the British Army married a German girl.My grandchildren were born in Germany,educated in German state schools,and were brought up as Germans.My Great Grand Son (5) does not speak any English!!as his father is German.So slowly my family will become Germans.
Now then think about this? My grandchildren`s two Gt Grandfathers were at war with one another!if they had come face to face one would have killed the other!! my family would never have happened.
We must never forget WW2,schools must cover everything and not just the politically correct stuff.I know its 70+ years but our lovely country came very close to invasion.If it was invaded D Day would not have happened,from then on would have been unthinkable.???? Swastikas flying on Buckingham Palace?? makes you shiver.

Edited by Old Merc on Friday 18th April 18:44

[PZR]

dudleybloke said:

plus lots of germans got tried for war crimes, and still do all these years later but not many japanese had to face up to their crimes.
this has to leave a sour taste for those victims of the japanese as the victims of nazis could feel that at least some justice was done.

I think you might want to look further into your "not many Japanese had to face up to their crimes" comment.

What numbers would you quote?

[Finlandia]

TwigtheWonderkid said:

Finlandia said:

TwigtheWonderkid said:

There's a synagogue quite near me and the side streets on a Saturday are chocca with Volvos (popular with Jews who want a quality car but prefer to avoid German).

The synagogue car park is of course empty because you're not allowed to drive on the Sabbath.

A bit odd, seeing as Sweden was rather good buddies and big trading partners with Adolf & co.

They were neutral. They did indeed trade with Nazi Germany, mainly in iron ore. But they also acted as a safe haven for north European jews, from Holland, Belgium and in particular Denmark; they resettled thousands of Danish Jews.

They/we (I'm half Swedish) were/are neutral on paper, in reality it can be discussed, then as well as now.
True, Sweden, or more like Swedish people did much good, but much of what was done as a country wasn't good at all.

England and France were willing to send troops through Sweden to help the Finns battle Soviet, Sweden declined passage and persuaded Norway to do the same, fast forward a bit and the same passage was granted for the Nazi troops. The Norwegian Princess (born in Sweden) and the rest of the royal family was not welcome to stay in Sweden after Nazis invaded Norway, but had to leave for England and Canada. It's no secret that the Swedish royalties were very friendly with the Nazis. The Balt extradition of 1945. It can also be discussed how far the Swedish export to Nazi Germany helped them continue the war.

I'm afraid the political stance at the time was to bet on the winning horse of the day, then next day pick another one when the winds had changed. A winning strategy or a cowardly act, best be unsaid, but Sweden is not too high up on the friend list of its neighbouring countries.

[owen k]

The U.S. Army raped 17,000 women in North Africa and western europe between 1942 and 1945.
I think that certainly gets glossed over.

Edited by owen k on Saturday 19th April 17:54

[simonrockman]

A relative was a POW in Japanese camp for a lot of the war and was very badly treated.

He's 99 now but some years ago, after a lot of soul searching he bought a Japanese car.

Another friend was kindertransport and remembers his parent's shop being destroyed at Kristallnacht, for years he and his wife who was also kindertransport refused to buy German, but over time he started doing business with Germany - as he was so young when he came to the UK his English is perfect and all the Germans were very impressed with how well he spoke their language. the business colleges became friends. He's just bought an Audi.

I think a lot of how much you bear grudges depends on how much contact you have with people of different beliefs and cultures. If you actively mix with them you get a far better understanding.

We shouldn't have single faith schools.

Simon

[TwigtheWonderkid]

owen k said:

The U.S. Army raped 17,000 women in North Africa and western europe between 1942 and 1945.
I think that certainly gets glossed over.

Edited by owen k on Saturday 19th April 17:54

All armies rape. You take young men of 17,18 etc, train them to be aggressive, put them in a situation where they don't know if they'll see their next birthday, and unfortunately rape is one of the consequences.

[owen k]

Indeed,but you only really hear about Russians raping German women at the end of the war.Not so much about the yanks' exploits during it.

[Tango13]

TwigtheWonderkid said:

owen k said:

The U.S. Army raped 17,000 women in North Africa and western europe between 1942 and 1945.
I think that certainly gets glossed over.

Edited by owen k on Saturday 19th April 17:54

All armies rape. You take young men of 17,18 etc, train them to be aggressive, put them in a situation where they don't know if they'll see their next birthday, and unfortunately rape is one of the consequences.

Just out of interest, how many GI's faced the Gallows for rape Vs Russian patriotic soldiers? Not looking for an arguement, just some historical balance.

[PZR]

9mm said:

The reason you won't hear about Allied atrocities against the Japanese is that they pale into insignificance in comparison. Mainland Japan was not subjected to invasion whereas just about everywhere the Japanese went they committed vile atrocities against civilians and military.

Mainland Japan was however subjected to occupation. In one prefecture alone (Kanagawa) 1300 rapes were reported between August 30 and September 10, 1945. And that's just rapes reported. A bit further up this thread you'll see a post that effectively explains such things away as some kind of collateral damage. My opinion is that it's just as bad if 'we' did it as if 'they' did it.

9mm said:

The best anyone will come up with in terms of Allied crimes is against Japanese combatants and they won't begin to compare with what the Japanese did.

See above, and if your interest runs that far you could look into it further. I'm not interested in getting into some kind of 'league tables of atrocity' type argument, but would be happier if more people understood that it wasn't all white-hatted good guys vs black-hatted baddies, and that it became a perfect storm of cyclical revenge and hatred from both sides. No point in being the victor if you can't reflect on what you did to win, and what becoming the victor made you.

9mm said:

We could start with survival rates of Japanese in Allied pow camps compared to those of Allied soldiers in Japanese camps...

It's worth reflecting that - for more than one reason - far fewer Japanese combatants arrived in Allied POW camps to begin with...

But as far as survival rates are concerned, think of the sheer logistics of coping with so many POWs - most of them not brought up in the region and climate they were POWs in, and therefore less resistant - at the far end of a chain of supply that was already stretched without taking into account the allied efforts to break it. With around 130,000 allied troops surrendering in the fall of Singapore and Malaya alone, I think anyone can see that it was going to be a problem.

[Eric Mc]

A problem which they decided was best dealt with by not really making even a half hearted attempt.

By 1941, the Japanese Empire had been on an aggressive militaristic expansion in Asia and their soldiers were experienced and battle hardened. They had little sympathy for "soft and decadent" white races and harboured much resentment against European colonialism in Asia. For many Japanese, the defeats and occupations of Burmah, Singapore, Malaya etc amounted to "payback time" against European oppression (as they saw it).

[PZR]

Eric Mc said:

A problem which they decided was best dealt with by not really making even a half hearted attempt.

When I first read that I thought you were referring to the allied efforts to defend Singapore. Then the penny dropped.

At least most of them actually ended up in POW 'camps'. I'd say that was at least half hearted. It could have been worse.

Eric Mc said:

By 1941, the Japanese Empire had been on an aggressive militaristic expansion in Asia and their soldiers were experienced and battle hardened. They had little sympathy for "soft and decadent" white races and harboured much resentment against European colonialism in Asia. For many Japanese, the defeats and occupations of Burmah, Singapore, Malaya etc amounted to "payback time" against European oppression (as they saw it).

The Imperial Japanese forces had little sympathy for anybody, Eric. Including their own. That's what a couple of decades of effective brainwashing can do for any nation. It'll happen again if we don't recognise that we are all capable of it, and that as soon as you start pointing the finger at a particular race and/or nation and calling them 'savages' or Untermensch (my Burma Star-wearing uncle was convinced that Japanese people are born with some special kind of cruelty gene, and told me they were no better than monkeys) you're sowing the seeds for another cruel harvest.

[Eric Mc]

I certainly would not pick on any one nation or race as being prone to any particular stereotypical attributes - whether those attributes be positive or negative.

But we do know that the Japanese in the 1930s and 40s most certainly had a very hard attitude to those they chose to take on as foes.