Bradford- lost for words

[Atmospheric]

Funkycoldribena said:

vinnie83 said:

Funkycoldribena said:

What are you on about? Have I entered the fourth dimension? How is any of that relevant to what I posted?

You suggested that my example of wanting to be hospitable to a new person in a group of friends being similar to immigrants bringing more of them over.

I am one of those, so I explained what I feel my family and I have to offer the country, despite you clearly not agreeing that we should be here. One came, others followed after all.

I am a child of immigrant parents, you seem to feel integration isn't a good thing. I explained why I think it is.

Having read some of your other posts, I can understand why you struggled to put that together.

You've got a great way of playing the victim/racist card.
I dont care if you're green,we're full up,full stop.Romanians,Indians,martians,that'll do now.We have a lack of housing and 2 million unemployed,lets get them into employment before we carry on this bullst of we need immigrants to fill jobs.

I reckon your out of your depth here. Do you understand how this world works, what role Britian has had to play, how we end up with poverty stricken areas such as central Bradford?

Your comments make you look like a naive fool. Whether that's true or not isn't for me to say.

[POORCARDEALER]

So, now the racist arguments are out of the way, whats needed is a sensible open discussion, without fear of been labelled racist.

The one thing I am sure about is local elections are getting like Pakistani ....When friday prayers are on, attendees are told who to vote for, with an intolerance to any other view, and usually a "watcher" at the polling station too.


In Dewsbury there is a Sharia court(ironically in an old pub) which sits on a saturday morning to dole out advice and punishment to the community, should this be allowed in the UK? This is on Baroness Warsi's doorstep, she seams oblivious to it, or certainly doesnt want to speak about its existence.

I dont want such things happening in the UK and make no apology for it.

[TheRealFingers99]

POORCARDEALER said:

The one thing I am sure about is local elections are getting like Pakistani ....When friday prayers are on, attendees are told who to vote for, with an intolerance to any other view, and usually a "watcher" at the polling station too.

You mean that doesn't happen at your local church? Come to think of it, you'd have to have pretty good eyesight (and a pretty good reason for hanging around inside a polling booth) to see where someone put the X. If voting fixing happens, I'm pretty sure it doesn't happen that way.

POORCARDEALER said:

In Dewsbury there is a Sharia court(ironically in an old pub) which sits on a saturday morning to dole out advice and punishment to the community, should this be allowed in the UK? This is on Baroness Warsi's doorstep, she seams oblivious to it, or certainly doesnt want to speak about its existence.

I dont want such things happening in the UK and make no apology for it.

Sell the story to the Sun, become rich overnight. 0845 086 3000 is the newsdesk number.

But note that communities having their own "courts" isn't a new thing. Most gangs do it, several churches do it, it's not uncommon among traveller and some Romani communities.

I think what scares folk is the idea of someone else's law being applied to them.

[andy-xr]

TheRealFingers99 said:

Funkycoldribena said:

I reckon you might eat those words when we end up like Sweden.

Like Sweden?

I don't get it. Have you ever been to Sweden? I have. I've even stayed in Swedish social housing. What depresses me about the place is the lack of any real multiculturalism -- it's just as though people were plonked on these great big estates and left. Nothing wrong with the housing, though.

That's interesting, I work for a Swedish company and just came back from a trip to Gothenburg.

Taxi driver, Iraqi immigrant, was warmly welcomed into Sweden together with all his family 8 years ago. They said the same as me, what they like about Sweden is the clean air, the openness and embrace to Swedish life, the chance to make good money and have a better quality of life for him, his daughters and his wife.

It's still a little California in places, as in, the Iraqis are making up a lot of the lower end jobs, in the same way as Mexicans do on the West Coast, but that's slowly changing as they're given better access to education and job training.

The thing with Sweden is, given the high rate of taxes and the weather, you have to really really want to go there, but when you get there, you're given every chance available to help contribute and better yourself.

[TheRealFingers99]

Well, we can disagree about Sweden. I was disappointed. I couldn't see anyone leaving Hammarkullen, although it's by no means a bad place, and the previous wave of inhabitants (Bosnian refugees, IIRC) had mainly left (either to go home or to settle elsewhere in Sweden).

But do you see the Swedish model as something to be feared as the Ribena man suggests? I take it you don't.

[drivin_me_nuts]

andy-xr said:

That's interesting, I work for a Swedish company and just came back from a trip to Gothenburg.

Taxi driver, Iraqi immigrant, was warmly welcomed into Sweden together with all his family 8 years ago. They said the same as me, what they like about Sweden is the clean air, the openness and embrace to Swedish life, the chance to make good money and have a better quality of life for him, his daughters and his wife.

It's still a little California in places, as in, the Iraqis are making up a lot of the lower end jobs, in the same way as Mexicans do on the West Coast, but that's slowly changing as they're given better access to education and job training.

The thing with Sweden is, given the high rate of taxes and the weather, you have to really really want to go there, but when you get there, you're given every chance available to help contribute and better yourself.

.. and it's a two way street. I'm a child of immigrants. They came here, worlked bloody hard and are have a comfortable retired life. They took their chances and made a commitment to this country. I'm really rather proud of them and all they have achieved.

...


Over the years i've known many children of immigrant parents. Mainly these are Indians and middle eastern and I can't help but fail to come to the conclusion that those who come from a strong background of either education and/or work ethic are the ones who go on to make successes of their lives either ignoring perceived prejudice or overcoming it. Indians i've met tend to be very different in outlook. I have formed the opinion that it's far easier to pass on the village mentality to your child that it is to open the mind of the child to the opportunities that lie before them.

I do wonder if at times we use the wrong words. It's less about 'integration' and more about adaption. Some people adapt very well, others simply cannot or will not. The ties that unify, hold and sometimes bind and constrict, lead to conflicts that show themselves in so many negative ways.

[Zod]

jimbop1 said:

I really haven't seen any racism. Clearly the modern meaning of a racist is anyone who dares to mention an ethnic minority.

I do find it disgusting, however, that people get branded a racist for sticking up for their own country.

At least your posting record gives people plenty of evidence to make a judgement on that question.

[okgo]

Its already in place in most of England, the only real exception seems to be big towns, but even then if you look at the people who live down my road they're nearly all white british, yet if you go up towards the cheaper end of town they're nearly all not so even within towns there are areas where certain people seem to be. A few exceptions apply, but you seem to think that we don't have massive segregation already when we absolutely do.

Go and walk round any half well to do Surrey or Hampshire town. You won't see much diversity.

[Zod]

POORCARDEALER said:

So, now the racist arguments are out of the way, whats needed is a sensible open discussion, without fear of been labelled racist.

The one thing I am sure about is local elections are getting like Pakistani ....When friday prayers are on, attendees are told who to vote for, with an intolerance to any other view, and usually a "watcher" at the polling station too.


In Dewsbury there is a Sharia court(ironically in an old pub) which sits on a saturday morning to dole out advice and punishment to the community, should this be allowed in the UK? This is on Baroness Warsi's doorstep, she seams oblivious to it, or certainly doesnt want to speak about its existence.

I dont want such things happening in the UK and make no apology for it.

The Sharia court has no existence or power in the eyes of the law. It's the same as the rules of your local golf club, except even more blinkered.

[vixen1700]

I'm pretty proud to have been brought up in a multi-cultural part of East London (Leytonstone, Waltham Forest) and detest racism.

It's not racist to point out there is a problem which has occurred since the New Labour open door policy was introduced. It's not racist to have this opinion which it appears people on this thread are being accused of being.

[okgo]

I don't see the issue.

If you don't like it, move?

[TroubledSoul]

TheRealFingers99 said:

Census shows:

71.21 White British
2.27 Mixed
19.83 Asian or Asian British
2.01 Black or Black British
0.47 Chinese

Percentage of Asian or Asian British is well below Leicester and several London Boroughs.

I've always rather liked Bradford. Scruffy place, but some magnificent buildings and nice pubs.

Illegals won't be measured by the census though, will they?

[Zod]

TroubledSoul said:

TheRealFingers99 said:

Census shows:

71.21 White British
2.27 Mixed
19.83 Asian or Asian British
2.01 Black or Black British
0.47 Chinese

Percentage of Asian or Asian British is well below Leicester and several London Boroughs.

I've always rather liked Bradford. Scruffy place, but some magnificent buildings and nice pubs.

Illegals won't be measured by the census though, will they?

Yeah and there are millions of them, I tell thee!

[wiggy001]

TheRealFingers99 said:

But note that communities having their own "courts" isn't a new thing. Most gangs do it, several churches do it, it's not uncommon among traveller and some Romani communities.

I think what scares folk is the idea of someone else's law being applied to them.

I've been watching this thread on and off from afar, interested to see how it would develop. I'm not sure that comparing Sharia courts to those of gangs and traveller communities is going to win any arguments. In fact, it just adds weight to the original point of this thread.

There is a simple fact. Some immigrant populations have no interest in integrating in the UK. They have set up a home-from-home world where English isn't spoken and the white brit isn't welcome. When such communities originate from third-world countries with a vastly different culture to ours, different values and expectations, it is no wonder that these areas to not "look and feel" like the green and pleasant land we expect of the UK.

Yes, there are a large number of immigrants to the UK that live in the leafy suburbs next to Mr and Mrs Miggins, run businesses employing UK-born people, have children who are doctors and nurses, pay taxes and basically live the same as any other white british family. These people HAVE integrated into the UK in the way we would want and expect and, because of this, they are not noticed. They are not newsworthy because they are not special, just like the majority of people in this country.

But when we drive through areas of south London, Bradford etc where there is not a white face to be seen; Every shop is run by foreign people/immigrants for their own kind; the streets are filthy - strewn with rubbish etc; with stories of stabbings and muggings in the press on a weekly basis.... ie all the negative points raised on this thread are seen in one small ghetto - is it any wonder people have a negative attitude towards immigration and, in particular, the ghettoisation of large parts of the uk?

I have exactly the same opinion, to give an example, of places like Benidorm in Spain that have been made an Englishman's ghetto by us brits. I would expect the Spanish to have exactly the same negative view about such areas, although they do have the added benefit of bringing vast amounts of UK pounds into the country, so I assume this is slightly easier to tolerate. I'd also expect the Spanish to be welcoming of brits that integrate into Spanish society, learn their language and contribute to the country as a whole (not just the "british" bits). And I would expect them to realise that not all Brits wear union jack shorts and get sucked off my drunk tarts in nightclubs. However, how many integrated brits going about their daily lives in Spain make the news?

The early part of this thread asked why such ghettos are stholes. Has anyone managed to answer that yet?

[StottyEvo]

WestYorkie said:

StottyEvo said:

Batley is ok, Dewsbury is probably worse than Bradford.

I lived in Beeston for a while (in the rough part), and it was 50x better than Dewsbury in my experience.

fking sthole, needs a bomb dropping on it

Oi! Give me fair warning when the bomb's coming so I can skidaddle or I'll set ol' man Webbo on ya.
I drive into Bradford regularly and as soon as I pass East Bierley (lovely little village) the spider senses start tingling watching for crash for cash wannabes etc. I wouldn't venture there if I didn't have to.

I have extra anger towards Dewsbury at the moment as someone decided to hit my car with a bar the night England were knocked out of the world cup it was parked up at the side of the road on Town Street. No other damage just a single blow so I doubt it was targeted vandalism. More like drunken scrote leaving the local pub.

[TheRealFingers99]

wiggy001 said:

TheRealFingers99 said:

But note that communities having their own "courts" isn't a new thing. Most gangs do it, several churches do it, it's not uncommon among traveller and some Romani communities.

I think what scares folk is the idea of someone else's law being applied to them.

I've been watching this thread on and off from afar, interested to see how it would develop. I'm not sure that comparing Sharia courts to those of gangs and traveller communities is going to win any arguments. In fact, it just adds weight to the original point of this thread.

I wasn't trying to win an argument -- just to point out that:
a. It's nothing special
b. Folk are scared of having some else's law applied to them.

You missed highlighting the bit about churches. I wonder why?

The thread was about Bradford. Poorcardealer was talking about Dewsbury.

wiggy001] [edit]much cliched drivel removed[/edit said:

The early part of this thread asked why such ghettos are stholes. Has anyone managed to answer that yet?

andy-xr and Countdown have pretty much made the point before but:

Take poor housing stock. Mix it with unemployment, poverty and poor education. Create something that no-one wants to go into, but only the very best can crawl out of. Add a little despair, put on a low heat for 20 years. Result -- one ghetto. And you can repeat it anywhere in the world.

[samuelellis]

StottyEvo said:

Batley is ok, Dewsbury is probably worse than Bradford.

I lived in Beeston for a while (in the rough part), and it was 50x better than Dewsbury in my experience.

fking sthole, needs a bomb dropping on it

Give me 10 mins warning to get out before the bomb hits (Dewsbury lad raised in Ravey here)

[thetapeworm]

I'm BD(23) born and raised and now live in Leeds but have spent a lot of time in and around Bradford over the years and still have colleagues, friends and family there. It's certainly got it's problems but it seems to have finally reached a point where these have peaked and improvements are being made. The city centre regeneration around the large water fountain seems popular and hosts regular events, the shopping centre is finally being built... Mmm... that's about it actually and will anyone actually open a shop in it and if so will it kill what remains of the shopping area that clings on?

The local focus certainly seems to be on Leeds which isn't without its own issues but it must be tricky for Bradford when it's in such close proximity to a major city that appears to be thriving in most areas.

As others have mentioned there are pockets of positives in Bradford (and other BD postcodes) but they seem to be the minority at the moment compared with run-down mills / buildings (some great architecture) and large areas of housing that seem to be populated by people who don't really care about their surroundings or have more important things to spend time / money on.

Are there any old mill towns / cities that have truly thrived since the decline of British industry?

[scorp]

thetapeworm said:

Are there any old mill towns / cities that have truly thrived since the decline of British industry?

Sheffield was doing OK the last time I saw it, improved from when I was a kid in the 80s.

[TheRealFingers99]

thetapeworm said:

Are there any old mill towns / cities that have truly thrived since the decline of British industry?

You'd have to define "thrived". Examples might be Hebden Bridge, Holmfirth (although they're relatively tiny). Rochdale doesn't look at all bad (from passing through to visit garages, FROSTs, etc.). But all of those can be seen as commuter towns for larger cities.