Life after Death? The mechanics of it?
Discussion
Chris GB said:
I'll read with interest any other replies, especially from alock, kiseca and ATG - thanks for the chat guys and the chance to think more. But otherwise that's it from me on this, I've said what I thought needed saying in reply to the OP. Cheers!
I'm sorry Chris but you are literally the worst kind of pop philosopher and I can't stand it anymore. You name drop those who would reinforce your opinion to imply a level of reading I think it is obvious you do not possess, the people you cite are largely themselves fringe thinkers, or not very much thinkers at all. You ignore the counter points as they demolish your argument repeatedly and you, and your cherry picked authors, attempt to employ a variation of "the quantum bulls
t" mechanism. I.e. Baffle them with bullst. Your use of English is also baffling, it reads like someone who has Google translate stuck on "Oscar Wilde" mode. There is only one rational argument here which is adopted by mainstream philosophy and science. It's also very very simple (the best ideas usually are). Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. You keep postulating these ideas about the nature of reality, the universe, whatever, but what are they worth? Nothing. They have absolutely no observable direct of indirect evidence, so they cannot by definition be proven to be true. So why would we believe them? We wouldn't, not without evidence, it would be insane to believe in magic, great big beardy entities controlling the universe, and any such none sense without a shred of proof. That is broadly speaking, consensus, with good cause.
Moreover, if we have absolutely no evidence, indirectly or directly. For what purpose would you benefit from such tripe? It cannot possibly make your life better unless you use it to shelter you from reality. Even the worst of philosophers, or sophists, do love knowledge, and such ignorance of the truth is an inexcusable barrier for any well read man.
I sympathise with the "agnostic", who has yet to find time to come down from his fence, I sympathise with the ignorant who has yet to join the enlightened, but I have no time for a man who subverts knowledge to further ignorance. If you are to continue to hide behind this none sense, do not do so under the guise of being well read.
Prof Prolapse said:
Chris GB said:
I'll read with interest any other replies, especially from alock, kiseca and ATG - thanks for the chat guys and the chance to think more. But otherwise that's it from me on this, I've said what I thought needed saying in reply to the OP. Cheers!
I'm sorry Chris but you are literally the worst kind of pop philosopher and I can't stand it anymore. You name drop those who would reinforce your opinion to imply a level of reading I think it is obvious you do not possess, the people you cite are largely themselves fringe thinkers, or not very much thinkers at all. You ignore the counter points as they demolish your argument repeatedly and you, and your cherry picked authors, attempt to employ a variation of "the quantum bullst" mechanism. I.e. Baffle them with bullst. Your use of English is also baffling, it reads like someone who has Google translate stuck on "Oscar Wilde" mode. There is only one rational argument here which is adopted by mainstream philosophy and science. It's also very very simple (the best ideas usually are). Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. You keep postulating these ideas about the nature of reality, the universe, whatever, but what are they worth? Nothing. They have absolutely no observable direct of indirect evidence, so they cannot by definition be proven to be true. So why would we believe them? We wouldn't, not without evidence, it would be insane to believe in magic, great big beardy entities controlling the universe, and any such none sense without a shred of proof. That is broadly speaking, consensus, with good cause.
Moreover, if we have absolutely no evidence, indirectly or directly. For what purpose would you benefit from such tripe? It cannot possibly make your life better unless you use it to shelter you from reality. Even the worst of philosophers, or sophists, do love knowledge, and such ignorance of the truth is an inexcusable barrier for any well read man.
I sympathise with the "agnostic", who has yet to find time to come down from his fence, I sympathise with the ignorant who has yet to join the enlightened, but I have no time for a man who subverts knowledge to further ignorance. If you are to continue to hide behind this none sense, do not do so under the guise of being well read.
Chris GB said:
ATG - I agree wrt pigs, but to define formal thinking is to do it.
When I add 11 and 11 and get the answer that would have been 44 had I used 22 and 22, I am adding - understanding what the pure form is, and this constitutes the formal thinking; there are no infinite mutually exclusive functions being performed here. Wouldn't you have to show that there are? Can you?
If my arguments have infinite incompatible possible explanations, being underdetermined, there is no way any one could do more than take my words as noise, is there?
I couldn't actually argue for underdetermination of apparently formal thinking, because to do so is to say there is no such thing as a proper argument or logical demonstration?
What is your way out of this?
Your capacity to add numbers does not demonstrate that you are performing formal thinking any more than a machine's capacity to add numbers would demonstrate that it was thinking formally. There's nothing for me to get out of here. You'd agree that we are imperfect thinkers, yet we have an idea of perfection? In the same way, we can think about formal thinking without having to be formal thinkers ourselves. So long as we are sufficiently good at mimicking formal thinking that we only make mistakes infrequently, then our deductions are not going to be pure random noise. They'll mostly agree with the deductions of other people. I'd say that was pretty close to what I experience daily. When I add 11 and 11 and get the answer that would have been 44 had I used 22 and 22, I am adding - understanding what the pure form is, and this constitutes the formal thinking; there are no infinite mutually exclusive functions being performed here. Wouldn't you have to show that there are? Can you?
If my arguments have infinite incompatible possible explanations, being underdetermined, there is no way any one could do more than take my words as noise, is there?
I couldn't actually argue for underdetermination of apparently formal thinking, because to do so is to say there is no such thing as a proper argument or logical demonstration?
What is your way out of this?
Edited by Chris GB on Thursday 21st May 23:01
Quite an interesting bit of 'debating' going on in this thread, the odd bits I actually understood that is.
The one thing I do find interesting is people's near death experience's, which is about as close to scientific evidence as there is - a very high percentage of people from all over the world telling pretty much the same story, this one in particular http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eben_Alexander_(aut...
The neurosurgeon calling out the journalists, other scientist's calling out the neurosurgeon, even other scientists/colleagues backing/vouching for him. His book does make for some interesting reading, for me mainly because it was written by someone from a scientific background, though as usual on this subject is steeped in controversy.
The one thing I do find interesting is people's near death experience's, which is about as close to scientific evidence as there is - a very high percentage of people from all over the world telling pretty much the same story, this one in particular http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eben_Alexander_(aut...
The neurosurgeon calling out the journalists, other scientist's calling out the neurosurgeon, even other scientists/colleagues backing/vouching for him. His book does make for some interesting reading, for me mainly because it was written by someone from a scientific background, though as usual on this subject is steeped in controversy.
There is a hospital somewhere in the US - that has a random number generator in one of the operating theatres.
When the patient is anaesthetised - someone pushes the button - and a random number is displayed on the big display - which remains throughout the operation.
There have been a never ending procession of people who claim to have had out of body experiences - floating around the room looking at themselves being operated on - but when asked not one of them can recall seeing the display - and correctly telling what the 5 digit random number was.
Not one.
Now... you would think if one patient - just one had said ... "I floated out of my body - and I saw this big bloody display with 68152" - there might be something in it.
As no-one yet has.... it is down to Woowoo again.
When the patient is anaesthetised - someone pushes the button - and a random number is displayed on the big display - which remains throughout the operation.
There have been a never ending procession of people who claim to have had out of body experiences - floating around the room looking at themselves being operated on - but when asked not one of them can recall seeing the display - and correctly telling what the 5 digit random number was.
Not one.
Now... you would think if one patient - just one had said ... "I floated out of my body - and I saw this big bloody display with 68152" - there might be something in it.
As no-one yet has.... it is down to Woowoo again.
Edited by Troubleatmill on Friday 22 May 17:36
Troubleatmill said:
There is a hospital somewhere in the US - that has a random number generator in one of the operating theatres.
When the patient is anaesthetised - someone pushes the button - and a random number is displayed on the big display - which remains throughout the operation.
There have been a never ending procession of people who claim to have had out of body experiences - floating around the room looking at themselves being operated on - but when asked not one of them can recall seeing the display - and correctly telling what the 5 digit random number was.
Not one.
Now... you would think if one patient - just one had said ... "I floated out of my body - and I saw this big bloody display with 68152" - there might be something in it.
As no-one yet has.... it is down to Woowoo again.
I've heard of this or something similar-random number on top of a resuc. room cupboard 2 metres up-being done elsewhere too, with no claimants as it were.When the patient is anaesthetised - someone pushes the button - and a random number is displayed on the big display - which remains throughout the operation.
There have been a never ending procession of people who claim to have had out of body experiences - floating around the room looking at themselves being operated on - but when asked not one of them can recall seeing the display - and correctly telling what the 5 digit random number was.
Not one.
Now... you would think if one patient - just one had said ... "I floated out of my body - and I saw this big bloody display with 68152" - there might be something in it.
As no-one yet has.... it is down to Woowoo again.
Edited by Troubleatmill on Friday 22 May 17:36
How many would be needed? Other than more than one!
Troubleatmill said:
There is a hospital somewhere in the US - that has a random number generator in one of the operating theatres.
When the patient is anaesthetised - someone pushes the button - and a random number is displayed on the big display - which remains throughout the operation.
There have been a never ending procession of people who claim to have had out of body experiences - floating around the room looking at themselves being operated on - but when asked not one of them can recall seeing the display - and correctly telling what the 5 digit random number was.
Not one.
Now... you would think if one patient - just one had said ... "I floated out of my body - and I saw this big bloody display with 68152" - there might be something in it.
As no-one yet has.... it is down to Woowoo again.
why is it so difficult for people to understand your born,you live your life and then you die and if you have children some part of you will live on. I have never seen a UFO or a ghost and I have never had vocies in my head is there something wrong with meWhen the patient is anaesthetised - someone pushes the button - and a random number is displayed on the big display - which remains throughout the operation.
There have been a never ending procession of people who claim to have had out of body experiences - floating around the room looking at themselves being operated on - but when asked not one of them can recall seeing the display - and correctly telling what the 5 digit random number was.
Not one.
Now... you would think if one patient - just one had said ... "I floated out of my body - and I saw this big bloody display with 68152" - there might be something in it.
As no-one yet has.... it is down to Woowoo again.
Edited by Troubleatmill on Friday 22 May 17:36
I'm not sure whether to laugh or cry at most of the posts in this thread.
To those that are certain and sat there in their no camp, perhaps you might consider spunking a few quid on reading The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying
My gut feeling is that we do go through a rebirth, and are born again. Why? Well it's mainly hear say stuff from spending quite a lot of time living within and studying Buddhist philosophy in Thailand and Nepal.
But the main moment that really nailed it for me was when Little Ex was 'born' - cesarean birth - you know - the sun roof option, and then much later (after all the blood and smeggy stuff had been cleared away) the midwife came back to find me and she told me "You'll be fine with that one, he's one of the ones that has been here before".
ETA:Just to clarify, he was born in Ireland, so not exactly a 'hippy' nation.
To those that are certain and sat there in their no camp, perhaps you might consider spunking a few quid on reading The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying
My gut feeling is that we do go through a rebirth, and are born again. Why? Well it's mainly hear say stuff from spending quite a lot of time living within and studying Buddhist philosophy in Thailand and Nepal.
But the main moment that really nailed it for me was when Little Ex was 'born' - cesarean birth - you know - the sun roof option, and then much later (after all the blood and smeggy stuff had been cleared away) the midwife came back to find me and she told me "You'll be fine with that one, he's one of the ones that has been here before".
ETA:Just to clarify, he was born in Ireland, so not exactly a 'hippy' nation.
Edited by TheExcession on Friday 22 May 22:04
A Prayer to end War Report post
A female CNN journalist heard about a very old Jewish man who had been going to the Western Wall to pray, twice a day, every day, for a long, long time.
So she went to check it out. She went to the Western Wall and there he was, walking slowly up to the holy site. She watched him pray and after about 45 minutes, when he turned to leave, using a cane and moving very slowly, she approached him for an interview.
"Pardon me, sir, I'm Rebecca Smith from CNN. What's your name?"
"Morris Feinberg," he replied.
"Sir, how long have you been coming to the Western Wall and praying?"
"For about 60 years."
"60 years. That's amazing. What do you pray for?"
"I pray for peace between the Christians, Jews, and the Muslims."
"I pray for all the wars and all the hatred to stop."
"I pray for all our children to grow up safely as responsible adults and to love their fellow man."
"I pray that politicians tell us the truth and put the interests of the people ahead of their own interests."
"And finally, I pray that everyone will be happy".
"How do you feel after doing this for 60 years?"
"Like I'm talking to a f*****g brick wall."
Just about sums it up for me
A female CNN journalist heard about a very old Jewish man who had been going to the Western Wall to pray, twice a day, every day, for a long, long time.
So she went to check it out. She went to the Western Wall and there he was, walking slowly up to the holy site. She watched him pray and after about 45 minutes, when he turned to leave, using a cane and moving very slowly, she approached him for an interview.
"Pardon me, sir, I'm Rebecca Smith from CNN. What's your name?"
"Morris Feinberg," he replied.
"Sir, how long have you been coming to the Western Wall and praying?"
"For about 60 years."
"60 years. That's amazing. What do you pray for?"
"I pray for peace between the Christians, Jews, and the Muslims."
"I pray for all the wars and all the hatred to stop."
"I pray for all our children to grow up safely as responsible adults and to love their fellow man."
"I pray that politicians tell us the truth and put the interests of the people ahead of their own interests."
"And finally, I pray that everyone will be happy".
"How do you feel after doing this for 60 years?"
"Like I'm talking to a f*****g brick wall."
Just about sums it up for me
Gassing Station | The Lounge | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff