People claiming to be ex Royal Marine/Para
Discussion
krunchkin said:
I was once supposed to make a film for the BBC about a kind of paintball / survivalist holiday weekend camp thing that John Mac was running in Wales. I went and did a recce and met them all and it was all set to go - Angela Rippon was going to present. Then suddenly someone higher up at the Beeb got wind we were working with him and it was all pulled quickly and mysteriously and never spoken of again, although I was told him and his colleagues were mixed up in some extremely murky business with weapons and under investigation by the spooks
Dunno much about that but there are lots of stories surrounding his later life (post-SAS) and a lot of them are BS or extremely exaggerated!Talking about film work our team has appeared in some recent films as SO19/SF troopers etc.. Quite strange to see us all on the big screen dressed up
Richyboy said:
Before the internet it must have been so easy to pull mindless females with stories of stolen valour.
Genuine squaddies used to be some of the worst for that sort of thing. I recall many times going out drinking with people who'd fabricate a story about being Tornado or Harrier pilots, or even members of the Red Arrows, because they felt that being a 'mere' Royal Engineer wasn't sufficiently 'interesting' to the sort of Doris they were interested in 'pulling'. That, along with 'professional treasure hunter', 'salvage diver', and even 'dolphin/killer whale trainer' have often been used (usually with a spectacular lack of success) to attempt to 'get into the pants' of attractive females. The difference being that none of the lads I knew who tried that sort of flannel ever ended up believing it to be true, or buying decorations or accessories to back up the story and help them 'live the life' of their fictitious career. TIGA84 said:
Forgive my total ignorance here, but what is the f
king boathouse question supposed to be about when apparent ex SAS are banging on about it? Is there actually a sodding boathouse or is some weird alternative question to something else, I'm sure its been asked before so go easy......
Walt ambushed with a cup of coffee.king boathouse question supposed to be about when apparent ex SAS are banging on about it? Is there actually a sodding boathouse or is some weird alternative question to something else, I'm sure its been asked before so go easy......https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1MkjmbdHUM
el stovey said:
I was quite disappointed seeing the TV programme about the RM last year, particularly how low calibre some of the recruits were. The guys I know who went there were the sort who do well anywhere. Perhaps they don't make good TV.
I don't think they were low calibre just the way the series was edited and who they showed. In any training platoon or troop you always get a percentage who struggle. I've done the infantry training and it's all very similar apart from the final exercises and the way it's designed to breakdown a person effects even the best. It was soul destroying for me and at points I was at my lowest ebb and you just pull each other through it. Normally the people who talk about being in the regiment haven't been in the regiment. There are quite a few from my regiment who served with special forces and only ever talk about the time with my regiment and hardly ever touch on other stuff.
JuniorD said:
What about the deluded tt from The Apprentice who never failed to mention his scholarship to Sandhurst (which he didn't take).
"Don't start banging on about bloody Sandhurst again."t from The Apprentice who never failed to mention his scholarship to Sandhurst (which he didn't take). "I've had this Sandhurst group in here before and one of them couldn't cook a sausage on a baked bean can so that does not mean anything to me."
yellowjack said:
I think that part of the reason why people lie about their service (or not,as the case may be) is that there's relatively little understanding about life inside the military amongst the wider population. Which makes it quite easy for someone who's prepared to do a little research on the subject to fabricate a glorious service record for themselves.
Also, much like the Christopher Lee story, it's easy to embellish a genuine record, to allow others to embellish it by reading too much into things, or to simply make up what you see as an obvious exaggeration about your service, which then 'sprouts wings' and takes off with a life of it's own.
From personal experience, it's entirely understandable when civilians start to read too much into a statement. I spent 24 years in the Royal Engineers, my last unit was 33/101 Engineer Regiment at Wimbish. It's the EOD (Bomb Disposal) unit, for those who don't know. The issue comes when you tell someone who's asked about your service, and their next statement/question is along the lines of "Wow! You're a braver man than I could ever be! What is it like, dealing with unexploded bombs?" At which point you have two options...
1) The truth - I didn't deal with unexploded bombs at all. Most of my time there was spent as the Unit Ammunition Accountant/Storekeeper. All units have their 'shiny' roles, but all require chefs, clerks, medics, and stores personnel too. My role was important. Possibly vital to UK Ops and training. But it never once involved "defusing an IED" or anything remotely similar.
2) Embellish as much or as little as you wish - after all, if the person you are talking to knew much about the subject, you'd be able to tell pretty quickly. So lie as much as you like. You know the theory, you've seen the kit. You know a fair bit about procedures and probably wore the 'Queen Mary Battle Honour' bomb on a red background on the left sleeve of your best kit. After all, how would a strawb know that a qualified Bomb Disposal Engineer would wear a 'trade' bomb badge with a green background?
...but if you choose option 2), beware! Once you tell the lie once, you're pretty much committed to it, unless you 'fess up pretty swiftly. Then it's only a matter of time (what with Sappers being everywhere and all
) before you're introduced to a genuine former EOD operator and your story starts to resemble a colander.
I've stuck to my sphere of experience, rather then the Special Forces area, as it's what I know, but I'd imagine it's similar with those SASWalts. I've know a couple of SAS chaps who I can be sure were genuinely badge-qualified members of "The Regiment". Two people out of thousands I served with through those 24 years. I won't name them, for obvious reasons. But only TWO! From thousands of colleagues over the years. A relatively small percentage of the population has served in the military. A tiny percentage of those with Special Forces. The chances of meeting one of them are small, the chances of knowing that you've met one smaller still. I did know about a dozen colleagues who were training for, or had been through 'Selection'. Most failed to make it through, and were RTU'd for injuries, or simply weren't deemed suitable for SAS service for whatever reason. A couple of those chaps may well have gone on to full SAS service. I don't know for sure. But I do know that I never, ever considered myself as a suitable candidate for that sort of service, as I was never going to be physically up to achieving the standard of fitness required to even go into the application process.
There was a young lad, very pleasant, who used to come into my village local now and then. He was 33 ER out of Carver too, but would never discuss his role/experiences in any detail, but he did deploy to the Middle East on at least two occasions that I recall, and I'm sure he had a 'field' role of some sorts, according to someone who knew him better than I did.Also, much like the Christopher Lee story, it's easy to embellish a genuine record, to allow others to embellish it by reading too much into things, or to simply make up what you see as an obvious exaggeration about your service, which then 'sprouts wings' and takes off with a life of it's own.
From personal experience, it's entirely understandable when civilians start to read too much into a statement. I spent 24 years in the Royal Engineers, my last unit was 33/101 Engineer Regiment at Wimbish. It's the EOD (Bomb Disposal) unit, for those who don't know. The issue comes when you tell someone who's asked about your service, and their next statement/question is along the lines of "Wow! You're a braver man than I could ever be! What is it like, dealing with unexploded bombs?" At which point you have two options...
1) The truth - I didn't deal with unexploded bombs at all. Most of my time there was spent as the Unit Ammunition Accountant/Storekeeper. All units have their 'shiny' roles, but all require chefs, clerks, medics, and stores personnel too. My role was important. Possibly vital to UK Ops and training. But it never once involved "defusing an IED" or anything remotely similar.
2) Embellish as much or as little as you wish - after all, if the person you are talking to knew much about the subject, you'd be able to tell pretty quickly. So lie as much as you like. You know the theory, you've seen the kit. You know a fair bit about procedures and probably wore the 'Queen Mary Battle Honour' bomb on a red background on the left sleeve of your best kit. After all, how would a strawb know that a qualified Bomb Disposal Engineer would wear a 'trade' bomb badge with a green background?
...but if you choose option 2), beware! Once you tell the lie once, you're pretty much committed to it, unless you 'fess up pretty swiftly. Then it's only a matter of time (what with Sappers being everywhere and all
) before you're introduced to a genuine former EOD operator and your story starts to resemble a colander. I've stuck to my sphere of experience, rather then the Special Forces area, as it's what I know, but I'd imagine it's similar with those SASWalts. I've know a couple of SAS chaps who I can be sure were genuinely badge-qualified members of "The Regiment". Two people out of thousands I served with through those 24 years. I won't name them, for obvious reasons. But only TWO! From thousands of colleagues over the years. A relatively small percentage of the population has served in the military. A tiny percentage of those with Special Forces. The chances of meeting one of them are small, the chances of knowing that you've met one smaller still. I did know about a dozen colleagues who were training for, or had been through 'Selection'. Most failed to make it through, and were RTU'd for injuries, or simply weren't deemed suitable for SAS service for whatever reason. A couple of those chaps may well have gone on to full SAS service. I don't know for sure. But I do know that I never, ever considered myself as a suitable candidate for that sort of service, as I was never going to be physically up to achieving the standard of fitness required to even go into the application process.
We also had a Walter-type (older gent) who was VERY vocal about his exploits in the army, where he'd been, what he'd done, etc, to anyone who would listen. Every night.
One evening, our younger chap visited the pub (he typically came in on weekend lunch-times normally) whilst older gent was there. Older gent didn't know younger gent and proceeded to spout his usual drivel. Younger gent asked some very simple, friendly questions.
We never heard older gent spout any more drivel, and he stopped coming into the pub shortly after.
iambeowulf said:
Re Ryan. There was a bit of controversy about his book and the details from serving and ex SP. I'm not saying he wasn't in it but may have made stuff up to sell books (which I liked. Bravo Two Zero).
Obviously I'm not calling you a liar but Ryan wrote 'The One That Got Away', McNab wrote 'Brave Two Zero'. BOBTEE said:
iambeowulf said:
Re Ryan. There was a bit of controversy about his book and the details from serving and ex SP. I'm not saying he wasn't in it but may have made stuff up to sell books (which I liked. Bravo Two Zero).
Obviously I'm not calling you a liar but Ryan wrote 'The One That Got Away', McNab wrote 'Brave Two Zero'. thainy77 said:
When i was in the last thing we did was tell "war stories" to impress the ladies. On the contrary, we weren't even in the Army, we were sailors, firemen, road sweeps, anything other than squaddies, you got an instant sneer if it was mentioned.
Indeed - it was also frowned upon from a PERSEC standing. Especially during The Troubles and Cold War days.had ham said:
yellowjack said:
I think that part of the reason why people lie about their service (or not,as the case may be) is that there's relatively little understanding about life inside the military amongst the wider population. Which makes it quite easy for someone who's prepared to do a little research on the subject to fabricate a glorious service record for themselves.
Also, much like the Christopher Lee story, it's easy to embellish a genuine record, to allow others to embellish it by reading too much into things, or to simply make up what you see as an obvious exaggeration about your service, which then 'sprouts wings' and takes off with a life of it's own.
From personal experience, it's entirely understandable when civilians start to read too much into a statement. I spent 24 years in the Royal Engineers, my last unit was 33/101 Engineer Regiment at Wimbish. It's the EOD (Bomb Disposal) unit, for those who don't know. The issue comes when you tell someone who's asked about your service, and their next statement/question is along the lines of "Wow! You're a braver man than I could ever be! What is it like, dealing with unexploded bombs?" At which point you have two options...
1) The truth - I didn't deal with unexploded bombs at all. Most of my time there was spent as the Unit Ammunition Accountant/Storekeeper. All units have their 'shiny' roles, but all require chefs, clerks, medics, and stores personnel too. My role was important. Possibly vital to UK Ops and training. But it never once involved "defusing an IED" or anything remotely similar.
2) Embellish as much or as little as you wish - after all, if the person you are talking to knew much about the subject, you'd be able to tell pretty quickly. So lie as much as you like. You know the theory, you've seen the kit. You know a fair bit about procedures and probably wore the 'Queen Mary Battle Honour' bomb on a red background on the left sleeve of your best kit. After all, how would a strawb know that a qualified Bomb Disposal Engineer would wear a 'trade' bomb badge with a green background?
...but if you choose option 2), beware! Once you tell the lie once, you're pretty much committed to it, unless you 'fess up pretty swiftly. Then it's only a matter of time (what with Sappers being everywhere and all ) before you're introduced to a genuine former EOD operator and your story starts to resemble a colander.
I've stuck to my sphere of experience, rather then the Special Forces area, as it's what I know, but I'd imagine it's similar with those SASWalts. I've know a couple of SAS chaps who I can be sure were genuinely badge-qualified members of "The Regiment". Two people out of thousands I served with through those 24 years. I won't name them, for obvious reasons. But only TWO! From thousands of colleagues over the years. A relatively small percentage of the population has served in the military. A tiny percentage of those with Special Forces. The chances of meeting one of them are small, the chances of knowing that you've met one smaller still. I did know about a dozen colleagues who were training for, or had been through 'Selection'. Most failed to make it through, and were RTU'd for injuries, or simply weren't deemed suitable for SAS service for whatever reason. A couple of those chaps may well have gone on to full SAS service. I don't know for sure. But I do know that I never, ever considered myself as a suitable candidate for that sort of service, as I was never going to be physically up to achieving the standard of fitness required to even go into the application process.
There was a young lad, very pleasant, who used to come into my village local now and then. He was 33 ER out of Carver too, but would never discuss his role/experiences in any detail, but he did deploy to the Middle East on at least two occasions that I recall, and I'm sure he had a 'field' role of some sorts, according to someone who knew him better than I did.Also, much like the Christopher Lee story, it's easy to embellish a genuine record, to allow others to embellish it by reading too much into things, or to simply make up what you see as an obvious exaggeration about your service, which then 'sprouts wings' and takes off with a life of it's own.
From personal experience, it's entirely understandable when civilians start to read too much into a statement. I spent 24 years in the Royal Engineers, my last unit was 33/101 Engineer Regiment at Wimbish. It's the EOD (Bomb Disposal) unit, for those who don't know. The issue comes when you tell someone who's asked about your service, and their next statement/question is along the lines of "Wow! You're a braver man than I could ever be! What is it like, dealing with unexploded bombs?" At which point you have two options...
1) The truth - I didn't deal with unexploded bombs at all. Most of my time there was spent as the Unit Ammunition Accountant/Storekeeper. All units have their 'shiny' roles, but all require chefs, clerks, medics, and stores personnel too. My role was important. Possibly vital to UK Ops and training. But it never once involved "defusing an IED" or anything remotely similar.
2) Embellish as much or as little as you wish - after all, if the person you are talking to knew much about the subject, you'd be able to tell pretty quickly. So lie as much as you like. You know the theory, you've seen the kit. You know a fair bit about procedures and probably wore the 'Queen Mary Battle Honour' bomb on a red background on the left sleeve of your best kit. After all, how would a strawb know that a qualified Bomb Disposal Engineer would wear a 'trade' bomb badge with a green background?
...but if you choose option 2), beware! Once you tell the lie once, you're pretty much committed to it, unless you 'fess up pretty swiftly. Then it's only a matter of time (what with Sappers being everywhere and all
) before you're introduced to a genuine former EOD operator and your story starts to resemble a colander. I've stuck to my sphere of experience, rather then the Special Forces area, as it's what I know, but I'd imagine it's similar with those SASWalts. I've know a couple of SAS chaps who I can be sure were genuinely badge-qualified members of "The Regiment". Two people out of thousands I served with through those 24 years. I won't name them, for obvious reasons. But only TWO! From thousands of colleagues over the years. A relatively small percentage of the population has served in the military. A tiny percentage of those with Special Forces. The chances of meeting one of them are small, the chances of knowing that you've met one smaller still. I did know about a dozen colleagues who were training for, or had been through 'Selection'. Most failed to make it through, and were RTU'd for injuries, or simply weren't deemed suitable for SAS service for whatever reason. A couple of those chaps may well have gone on to full SAS service. I don't know for sure. But I do know that I never, ever considered myself as a suitable candidate for that sort of service, as I was never going to be physically up to achieving the standard of fitness required to even go into the application process.
We also had a Walter-type (older gent) who was VERY vocal about his exploits in the army, where he'd been, what he'd done, etc, to anyone who would listen. Every night.
One evening, our younger chap visited the pub (he typically came in on weekend lunch-times normally) whilst older gent was there. Older gent didn't know younger gent and proceeded to spout his usual drivel. Younger gent asked some very simple, friendly questions.
We never heard older gent spout any more drivel, and he stopped coming into the pub shortly after.
He killed him! A work colleague of my dad (RAF Music Service)
was a Sargent with wings , at the time (mid 60's) he was one of the last sargent pilots still serving but tranfered to the music service .
Many who were not as observant as they thought would query his wearing of wings , if they had noted his medal ribbons they might of had second thoughts .
One of my prized possessions is a pair of his wings .
was a Sargent with wings , at the time (mid 60's) he was one of the last sargent pilots still serving but tranfered to the music service .
Many who were not as observant as they thought would query his wearing of wings , if they had noted his medal ribbons they might of had second thoughts .
One of my prized possessions is a pair of his wings .
Living a few miles away from CTC where they train RM recruits, marines are a part of our daily lives.
In a nightclub with mates one night, a stunning (no, really!) girl came over & asked me to dance, who was I to say no. After a few minutes she asked me if I was a marine, to which I honestly (& stupidly) replied, no. Minutes later she was all over two actual marines & I was left wondering what might have been
I wonder why the Walters do it..!
In a nightclub with mates one night, a stunning (no, really!) girl came over & asked me to dance, who was I to say no. After a few minutes she asked me if I was a marine, to which I honestly (& stupidly) replied, no. Minutes later she was all over two actual marines & I was left wondering what might have been
I wonder why the Walters do it..!
LordHaveMurci said:
Living a few miles away from CTC where they train RM recruits, marines are a part of our daily lives.
In a nightclub with mates one night, a stunning (no, really!) girl came over & asked me to dance, who was I to say no. After a few minutes she asked me if I was a marine, to which I honestly (& stupidly) replied, no. Minutes later she was all over two actual marines & I was left wondering what might have been
I wonder why the Walters do it..!
You should have told her you were a submarine and that you could stay submerged for hours.In a nightclub with mates one night, a stunning (no, really!) girl came over & asked me to dance, who was I to say no. After a few minutes she asked me if I was a marine, to which I honestly (& stupidly) replied, no. Minutes later she was all over two actual marines & I was left wondering what might have been
I wonder why the Walters do it..!
People want to believe stuff though.
I get the opposite. I get asked if I was in the forces by strangers on a fairly regular basis. I say no apart from the Air Cadets (ATC). Sometimes they don't believe me but prefer to think I must be denying it because it was covert. The more you deny the more they are convinced you're hiding something.
Confuses me. I fit the mould of "His men would follow him anywhere, but only out of curiosity" but I do have a steely eyed 1000yard stare (if I forget my glasses.)
I get the opposite. I get asked if I was in the forces by strangers on a fairly regular basis. I say no apart from the Air Cadets (ATC). Sometimes they don't believe me but prefer to think I must be denying it because it was covert. The more you deny the more they are convinced you're hiding something.
Confuses me. I fit the mould of "His men would follow him anywhere, but only out of curiosity" but I do have a steely eyed 1000yard stare (if I forget my glasses.)
rhinochopig said:
had ham said:
yellowjack said:
I think that part of the reason why people lie about their service (or not,as the case may be) is that there's relatively little understanding about life inside the military amongst the wider population. Which makes it quite easy for someone who's prepared to do a little research on the subject to fabricate a glorious service record for themselves.
Also, much like the Christopher Lee story, it's easy to embellish a genuine record, to allow others to embellish it by reading too much into things, or to simply make up what you see as an obvious exaggeration about your service, which then 'sprouts wings' and takes off with a life of it's own.
From personal experience, it's entirely understandable when civilians start to read too much into a statement. I spent 24 years in the Royal Engineers, my last unit was 33/101 Engineer Regiment at Wimbish. It's the EOD (Bomb Disposal) unit, for those who don't know. The issue comes when you tell someone who's asked about your service, and their next statement/question is along the lines of "Wow! You're a braver man than I could ever be! What is it like, dealing with unexploded bombs?" At which point you have two options...
1) The truth - I didn't deal with unexploded bombs at all. Most of my time there was spent as the Unit Ammunition Accountant/Storekeeper. All units have their 'shiny' roles, but all require chefs, clerks, medics, and stores personnel too. My role was important. Possibly vital to UK Ops and training. But it never once involved "defusing an IED" or anything remotely similar.
2) Embellish as much or as little as you wish - after all, if the person you are talking to knew much about the subject, you'd be able to tell pretty quickly. So lie as much as you like. You know the theory, you've seen the kit. You know a fair bit about procedures and probably wore the 'Queen Mary Battle Honour' bomb on a red background on the left sleeve of your best kit. After all, how would a strawb know that a qualified Bomb Disposal Engineer would wear a 'trade' bomb badge with a green background?
...but if you choose option 2), beware! Once you tell the lie once, you're pretty much committed to it, unless you 'fess up pretty swiftly. Then it's only a matter of time (what with Sappers being everywhere and all ) before you're introduced to a genuine former EOD operator and your story starts to resemble a colander.
I've stuck to my sphere of experience, rather then the Special Forces area, as it's what I know, but I'd imagine it's similar with those SASWalts. I've know a couple of SAS chaps who I can be sure were genuinely badge-qualified members of "The Regiment". Two people out of thousands I served with through those 24 years. I won't name them, for obvious reasons. But only TWO! From thousands of colleagues over the years. A relatively small percentage of the population has served in the military. A tiny percentage of those with Special Forces. The chances of meeting one of them are small, the chances of knowing that you've met one smaller still. I did know about a dozen colleagues who were training for, or had been through 'Selection'. Most failed to make it through, and were RTU'd for injuries, or simply weren't deemed suitable for SAS service for whatever reason. A couple of those chaps may well have gone on to full SAS service. I don't know for sure. But I do know that I never, ever considered myself as a suitable candidate for that sort of service, as I was never going to be physically up to achieving the standard of fitness required to even go into the application process.
There was a young lad, very pleasant, who used to come into my village local now and then. He was 33 ER out of Carver too, but would never discuss his role/experiences in any detail, but he did deploy to the Middle East on at least two occasions that I recall, and I'm sure he had a 'field' role of some sorts, according to someone who knew him better than I did.Also, much like the Christopher Lee story, it's easy to embellish a genuine record, to allow others to embellish it by reading too much into things, or to simply make up what you see as an obvious exaggeration about your service, which then 'sprouts wings' and takes off with a life of it's own.
From personal experience, it's entirely understandable when civilians start to read too much into a statement. I spent 24 years in the Royal Engineers, my last unit was 33/101 Engineer Regiment at Wimbish. It's the EOD (Bomb Disposal) unit, for those who don't know. The issue comes when you tell someone who's asked about your service, and their next statement/question is along the lines of "Wow! You're a braver man than I could ever be! What is it like, dealing with unexploded bombs?" At which point you have two options...
1) The truth - I didn't deal with unexploded bombs at all. Most of my time there was spent as the Unit Ammunition Accountant/Storekeeper. All units have their 'shiny' roles, but all require chefs, clerks, medics, and stores personnel too. My role was important. Possibly vital to UK Ops and training. But it never once involved "defusing an IED" or anything remotely similar.
2) Embellish as much or as little as you wish - after all, if the person you are talking to knew much about the subject, you'd be able to tell pretty quickly. So lie as much as you like. You know the theory, you've seen the kit. You know a fair bit about procedures and probably wore the 'Queen Mary Battle Honour' bomb on a red background on the left sleeve of your best kit. After all, how would a strawb know that a qualified Bomb Disposal Engineer would wear a 'trade' bomb badge with a green background?
...but if you choose option 2), beware! Once you tell the lie once, you're pretty much committed to it, unless you 'fess up pretty swiftly. Then it's only a matter of time (what with Sappers being everywhere and all
) before you're introduced to a genuine former EOD operator and your story starts to resemble a colander. I've stuck to my sphere of experience, rather then the Special Forces area, as it's what I know, but I'd imagine it's similar with those SASWalts. I've know a couple of SAS chaps who I can be sure were genuinely badge-qualified members of "The Regiment". Two people out of thousands I served with through those 24 years. I won't name them, for obvious reasons. But only TWO! From thousands of colleagues over the years. A relatively small percentage of the population has served in the military. A tiny percentage of those with Special Forces. The chances of meeting one of them are small, the chances of knowing that you've met one smaller still. I did know about a dozen colleagues who were training for, or had been through 'Selection'. Most failed to make it through, and were RTU'd for injuries, or simply weren't deemed suitable for SAS service for whatever reason. A couple of those chaps may well have gone on to full SAS service. I don't know for sure. But I do know that I never, ever considered myself as a suitable candidate for that sort of service, as I was never going to be physically up to achieving the standard of fitness required to even go into the application process.
We also had a Walter-type (older gent) who was VERY vocal about his exploits in the army, where he'd been, what he'd done, etc, to anyone who would listen. Every night.
One evening, our younger chap visited the pub (he typically came in on weekend lunch-times normally) whilst older gent was there. Older gent didn't know younger gent and proceeded to spout his usual drivel. Younger gent asked some very simple, friendly questions.
We never heard older gent spout any more drivel, and he stopped coming into the pub shortly after.
He killed him! Gassing Station | The Lounge | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff