Child Day Off From School. Am I Wrong?
Discussion
Puggit said:
Good decision. The stupidity of this man appears to know no bounds though, can he appeal this decision again?FredClogs said:
Puggit said:
Good decision. The stupidity of this man appears to know no bounds though, can he appeal this decision again?The result is that it is a criminal offence for a child not to be in school - even if they are a few minutes late. While presumably they would not normally go that far, I do think it is wrong for the state to have so much control over our and our children's lives.
This is all down to that d
head Gove.RC1807 said:
Stupid man!
Pay the £60 and move on?
No.
"I'll fight the principle!"
It would have been easier to pay the fine, true. But that wouldn't have helped to potentially overturn what he saw as a unfair and illogical ruling.Pay the £60 and move on?
No.
"I'll fight the principle!"
There are lots of laws/rules that have been changed after one or two principled (or deluded, depending on your point of view) people have decided to take the less-easy option – gay marriage, votes for women, private parking companies etc...
I doubt the guy spent several years of his life contesting a £60 fine just for the sake of it
boyse7en said:
It would have been easier to pay the fine, true. But that wouldn't have helped to potentially overturn what he saw as a unfair and illogical ruling.
There are lots of laws/rules that have been changed after one or two principled (or deluded, depending on your point of view) people have decided to take the less-easy option – gay marriage, votes for women, private parking companies etc...
I doubt the guy spent several years of his life contesting a £60 fine just for the sake of it
I bet he did - the tight bThere are lots of laws/rules that have been changed after one or two principled (or deluded, depending on your point of view) people have decided to take the less-easy option – gay marriage, votes for women, private parking companies etc...
I doubt the guy spent several years of his life contesting a £60 fine just for the sake of it
d. 
surveyor said:
FredClogs said:
Puggit said:
Good decision. The stupidity of this man appears to know no bounds though, can he appeal this decision again?The result is that it is a criminal offence for a child not to be in school - even if they are a few minutes late. While presumably they would not normally go that far, I do think it is wrong for the state to have so much control over our and our children's lives.
This is all down to that d
head Gove.I also think the guy is right.
The reason it's the right decision is that it gives more flexibility to irresponsible parents to take their kids out of school.
This dude might be the best parent in the world and his kid may have the best attendance record in history. The problem is that not all parents/kids are like that.
boyse7en said:
RC1807 said:
Stupid man!
Pay the £60 and move on?
No.
"I'll fight the principle!"
It would have been easier to pay the fine, true. But that wouldn't have helped to potentially overturn what he saw as a unfair and illogical ruling.Pay the £60 and move on?
No.
"I'll fight the principle!"
There are lots of laws/rules that have been changed after one or two principled (or deluded, depending on your point of view) people have decided to take the less-easy option – gay marriage, votes for women, private parking companies etc...
I doubt the guy spent several years of his life contesting a £60 fine just for the sake of it
from memory, her attendance was shocking anyway and she was also doubling up on holidays, going on one set with her mum and step dad, another set with her dad.
If I take my child at 5 years out of school, missing out on colouring in for a week, isn't really an issue.
but at an older age, utter chaos.
the bloke's a noob.
My parents taught in Bradford, many moons ago, sometimes in 100% Pakistani schools. Pre fining/penalty days.
some children would go missing for months on "family holidays". they'd come back having lost all basic skills, even a command of English.
some of the girls wouldn't even return at 13,14, 15 or so, having: one assumed, been married off.
You cannot have this in a school. Schools would even empty out, en masse at Eid. complete chaos.
This isn't just about a day off for Disney world, there is so much more to the tale and situation I suspect in our society.
If I take my child at 5 years out of school, missing out on colouring in for a week, isn't really an issue.
but at an older age, utter chaos.
the bloke's a noob.
My parents taught in Bradford, many moons ago, sometimes in 100% Pakistani schools. Pre fining/penalty days.
some children would go missing for months on "family holidays". they'd come back having lost all basic skills, even a command of English.
some of the girls wouldn't even return at 13,14, 15 or so, having: one assumed, been married off.
You cannot have this in a school. Schools would even empty out, en masse at Eid. complete chaos.
This isn't just about a day off for Disney world, there is so much more to the tale and situation I suspect in our society.
Can't agree with the Good decision brigade.
There is far far far too much over reach on the part of petty beaurocrats in this country, and the teaching profession are the same. They should focus on the day job i.e. Teaching. It should not be their right to dictate to other people under normal circumstances how they should live their life.
They have duty of care to children in their care, and that is right and proper, but that should extend to stopping them getting run over or playing with knives, not interfering in any other aspects of their life.
Parents should have a legal obligation to ensure their children attend school, but that does not justify a dictatorial attitudes on the part of the teaching profession over every single day off. Including doctors appointments ffs.
Ensuring that the feckless don't damage their children's future is not an excuse for penetrating their interfering tendrils into the last recesses of the lives of the normally law abiding and sensible.
Get the fk off my lawn
There is far far far too much over reach on the part of petty beaurocrats in this country, and the teaching profession are the same. They should focus on the day job i.e. Teaching. It should not be their right to dictate to other people under normal circumstances how they should live their life.
They have duty of care to children in their care, and that is right and proper, but that should extend to stopping them getting run over or playing with knives, not interfering in any other aspects of their life.
Parents should have a legal obligation to ensure their children attend school, but that does not justify a dictatorial attitudes on the part of the teaching profession over every single day off. Including doctors appointments ffs.
Ensuring that the feckless don't damage their children's future is not an excuse for penetrating their interfering tendrils into the last recesses of the lives of the normally law abiding and sensible.
Get the f
k off my lawn austinsmirk said:
from memory, her attendance was shocking anyway and she was also doubling up on holidays, going on one set with her mum and step dad, another set with her dad.
If I take my child at 5 years out of school, missing out on colouring in for a week, isn't really an issue.
but at an older age, utter chaos.
the bloke's a noob.
My parents taught in Bradford, many moons ago, sometimes in 100% Pakistani schools. Pre fining/penalty days.
some children would go missing for months on "family holidays". they'd come back having lost all basic skills, even a command of English.
some of the girls wouldn't even return at 13,14, 15 or so, having: one assumed, been married off.
You cannot have this in a school. Schools would even empty out, en masse at Eid. complete chaos.
This isn't just about a day off for Disney world, there is so much more to the tale and situation I suspect in our society.
Your memory is no good. I think she has a 98% attendance.If I take my child at 5 years out of school, missing out on colouring in for a week, isn't really an issue.
but at an older age, utter chaos.
the bloke's a noob.
My parents taught in Bradford, many moons ago, sometimes in 100% Pakistani schools. Pre fining/penalty days.
some children would go missing for months on "family holidays". they'd come back having lost all basic skills, even a command of English.
some of the girls wouldn't even return at 13,14, 15 or so, having: one assumed, been married off.
You cannot have this in a school. Schools would even empty out, en masse at Eid. complete chaos.
This isn't just about a day off for Disney world, there is so much more to the tale and situation I suspect in our society.
I agree that Parents should be able to take their child out whenever they want. But subject to a fine that rises with each day. So £60 the first day £110 for 2 days. £150 for 3 etc. The fine will stop people taking the piss.
BUT
I also don't believe that the teachers should have to help the child catch up. They missed a week. They miss that weeks teaching too. Ultimately thats life. I don't want the over stretched teachers having to spend more time they don't have to help out little Cuthbert who spent 2 weeks skiing in Andorra and missed out pronunciation of words. When everyone else in the class has been there.
Woman on the radio phone in said it was terrible that due to her husbands work they HAD to take little Jimmy out during school time or he'd "miss out"
I get that and I'm sympathetic. But I and my brother NEVER went on holiday with our parents. We'd go to the Beach or Chessington for the day, but we never flew to Spain for a week. Our limit was the day trip to Boulogne for French lessons. We didn't have the money for anything else. And whilst my horizons have broadened since. I don't feel that I "missed out"
BUT
I also don't believe that the teachers should have to help the child catch up. They missed a week. They miss that weeks teaching too. Ultimately thats life. I don't want the over stretched teachers having to spend more time they don't have to help out little Cuthbert who spent 2 weeks skiing in Andorra and missed out pronunciation of words. When everyone else in the class has been there.
Woman on the radio phone in said it was terrible that due to her husbands work they HAD to take little Jimmy out during school time or he'd "miss out"
I get that and I'm sympathetic. But I and my brother NEVER went on holiday with our parents. We'd go to the Beach or Chessington for the day, but we never flew to Spain for a week. Our limit was the day trip to Boulogne for French lessons. We didn't have the money for anything else. And whilst my horizons have broadened since. I don't feel that I "missed out"
The 'one size fits all' bureaucratic anti parent criminalisation with associated lucrative fines is an embarrassment. Maybe its anti Tory councils that fine 8000 parents a year whilst some Tory LA's fine NONE! Absolutely absurd local dictator 'devolved' political policy.
I hope this verdict means a return to common sense 'feet on the ground' pragmatic policy - with headmasters' input and lashings of ye olde common sense? And all based on what is best for the kid not best for Pisa or Ofsted jobsworths posturing/promotion prospects...
I actually dont condone Platt taking his kid out for two weeks to bl00dy Disneyland, but I feel that can be his choice, based on a good attendance record and kids doing OK at school - and it also seems to be he was juggling 3 kids at different schools with different term breaks (this is not something THEY mention...).
Thankfully there is at least enough common sense about (Wales LEAs...) and I have had my kids miss a few days now and again to suit their parents livelyhood and work pattern (we aren't all salaried and can submit 'leave forms'...) and their positive life choices too. So, mine missed 3 days recently (with the schools blessings as I talk to the school about such things and explain...) and then the kids came back having met actual Penguins in the wild in an amazing country, rather than having seen them in a b Disney film... They also really traveled, learnt languages and grew in confidence and experience - and I feel if any LA or Headteacher wanted to go head to head with our family's life choices here I too could have been a Platt. But no, not for Orlando...
Maybe I'm being a bit worthy here, as, if a family wanting a week away in Benidorm can only go when Dad has no work, then that is when they must go. Dads can work a lot and a solid week with the kids is very valuable. But I think the key must be in communication with the school not blanket bans and draconian fining as a 'sorted - job done' regional policy based on a whim...
I hope this verdict means a return to common sense 'feet on the ground' pragmatic policy - with headmasters' input and lashings of ye olde common sense? And all based on what is best for the kid not best for Pisa or Ofsted jobsworths posturing/promotion prospects...
I actually dont condone Platt taking his kid out for two weeks to bl00dy Disneyland, but I feel that can be his choice, based on a good attendance record and kids doing OK at school - and it also seems to be he was juggling 3 kids at different schools with different term breaks (this is not something THEY mention...).
Thankfully there is at least enough common sense about (Wales LEAs...) and I have had my kids miss a few days now and again to suit their parents livelyhood and work pattern (we aren't all salaried and can submit 'leave forms'...) and their positive life choices too. So, mine missed 3 days recently (with the schools blessings as I talk to the school about such things and explain...) and then the kids came back having met actual Penguins in the wild in an amazing country, rather than having seen them in a b Disney film... They also really traveled, learnt languages and grew in confidence and experience - and I feel if any LA or Headteacher wanted to go head to head with our family's life choices here I too could have been a Platt. But no, not for Orlando...
Maybe I'm being a bit worthy here, as, if a family wanting a week away in Benidorm can only go when Dad has no work, then that is when they must go. Dads can work a lot and a solid week with the kids is very valuable. But I think the key must be in communication with the school not blanket bans and draconian fining as a 'sorted - job done' regional policy based on a whim...
Importance of going on foreign holidays seems to be getting a bit inflated. I've seen some people causally assert that it is a "right", and that always sets off my "don't trivialise rights" and "what about your responsibilities?" responses.
Strikes me that this is a very good decision. The principle that the parents and the school must be in agreement about what constitutes acceptable attendance for each pupil strikes me as entirely sensible. Parents should not be the final arbiters. We have a collective responsibility to give children the chance of a good education. We have collectively placed legal responsibilities on parents to educate their children. We collectively pay for children's state education and some would say we even collectively subsidise private education through tax exemptions. The responsibility for educating children is already shared between parents and the state representing the rest of us. Why would anyone expect it to be different when it comes to arranging for a child to be absent from class for a holiday?
Strikes me that this is a very good decision. The principle that the parents and the school must be in agreement about what constitutes acceptable attendance for each pupil strikes me as entirely sensible. Parents should not be the final arbiters. We have a collective responsibility to give children the chance of a good education. We have collectively placed legal responsibilities on parents to educate their children. We collectively pay for children's state education and some would say we even collectively subsidise private education through tax exemptions. The responsibility for educating children is already shared between parents and the state representing the rest of us. Why would anyone expect it to be different when it comes to arranging for a child to be absent from class for a holiday?
I was talking to my wife about this last night. She's a head teacher.
Her view was that some schools are more lenient than others. The decision to fine or not is based on the school having to face the wraith of Ofsted if they question why a school that has attendence problems hasn't been seen to disuade unauthorised absences.
A school that doesn't have these issues would not be treated so harshly. She also said a lot of parents are happy to factor the £60 into the cost of the holiday, especially if the family are saving many hundreds of pounds due to avoiding the holiday-time price hikes.
As mentioned above, at infant/primary school age it makes no difference but as they get older and start proper studies it does impact on the grades. Children with an attendence of around 80-85% (I think she said) on average get grade B's at best, whereas those with 90% or higher can achieve top marks more consistently.
One-off absences are okay(ish) but regular term time excursions, i.e. every year at least once do have a negative effect.
If this bloke had coughed up the £60 he wouldn't have blown the whole thing open and fked it up for parents across the country.
Her view was that some schools are more lenient than others. The decision to fine or not is based on the school having to face the wraith of Ofsted if they question why a school that has attendence problems hasn't been seen to disuade unauthorised absences.
A school that doesn't have these issues would not be treated so harshly. She also said a lot of parents are happy to factor the £60 into the cost of the holiday, especially if the family are saving many hundreds of pounds due to avoiding the holiday-time price hikes.
As mentioned above, at infant/primary school age it makes no difference but as they get older and start proper studies it does impact on the grades. Children with an attendence of around 80-85% (I think she said) on average get grade B's at best, whereas those with 90% or higher can achieve top marks more consistently.
One-off absences are okay(ish) but regular term time excursions, i.e. every year at least once do have a negative effect.
If this bloke had coughed up the £60 he wouldn't have blown the whole thing open and f
ked it up for parents across the country.Rich_W said:
I get that and I'm sympathetic. But I and my brother NEVER went on holiday with our parents. We'd go to the Beach or Chessington for the day, but we never flew to Spain for a week. Our limit was the day trip to Boulogne for French lessons. We didn't have the money for anything else. And whilst my horizons have broadened since. I don't feel that I "missed out"
Indeed.My dad was (and still is, at 83) a bit of a workaholic. He owned several businesses and simply wouldn't take time off to go on holiday.
So instead, my parents sent us on school trips, exchanges, skiing trips etc.
He did keep every Saturday afternoon free to take my sister and I out while mum stayed at home, and Sundays were family days but to be honest my sister and I much preferred going away with a coachload of kids our own age to a week on a beach with our parents, dad would have been a nightmare anyway having to leave his businesses for a week (no mobile working in the 70s and 80s).
Taking kids out of school to go on non-educational holidays is simply selfishness on the parents' part. While a week touring the ancient ruins of Rome might benefit a child's GCSE history, a week on the beach in Tenerife will not - and as usual the legislation has to punish the sensible in order to stop the stupid and selfish.
The latest decision is an absurdity. The courts have taken regular to mean full and (it appears to me) changed the definition in the eyes of the law.
The rules state "Section 7 of the Education Act 1996 places a duty on parents to ensure that their child of compulsory school age receives a suitable education either by regular attendance at school or otherwise."
If the parent could prove that the child was getting suitable education away from the school that would seem acceptable, but with no specified school hours I cannot see how they determine a value.
The whole case stinks of controlling the populace and assuming that parents are inept and unable to put their childrens future as a priority.
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