Poor people and credit
Discussion
Even further off topic, but to do with securing a discount instead of resorting to credit, I learned a lesson at another high street retailer when I treated myself to a watch for my 60th. I fancied a Speedmaster. Very self indulgent, but, y'know. Anyway, I get on well with a local jeweller and I asked if he could make a few bob by buying one for me trade and passing on some of the discount. He said he couldn't but he recommended Fraser Hart, one of the big retailers in the town, so off I went. A young lady there seemed pleased to see me and was very helpful right up until I asked about a discount. She went right off me at that point and there was no point in continuing the conversation. Outside, as I looked again forlornly at the window display, a salesman from the shop appeared at my side and said he'd overheard the conversation and wondered if he could help. The particular watch I wanted, a moon watch with a strap rather than a bracelet, they didn't carry. He said he could order one as a special and asked me what sort of discount I was seeking. Easy. The watch was available on the internet at a much lower price but without a warranty. I wanted that price, from his shop, with the warranty. Back inside the shop he did his sums and came close to what I wanted and I went ahead. They called after a few days to say the watch was in. When I got there and asked for the salesman, he did the sums again, reached the same amount and then said, "I'll just round that down for you. Make it a nice even number." You're joking, right? The shop went from No Discount, to Some Discount reluctantly, to Even More Discount voluntarily to make a nice round number.
Set out to drive a hard bargain is my advice. There is plenty of room in the prices to accommodate it. The secret is to find the pragmatic salesperson, or hope they find you. And there is always another shop round the corner that wants your business.
Set out to drive a hard bargain is my advice. There is plenty of room in the prices to accommodate it. The secret is to find the pragmatic salesperson, or hope they find you. And there is always another shop round the corner that wants your business.
DonkeyApple said:
Finance houses aren't lending money for free. That's not very profitable. 
They also aren't lending at 0 and just taking a small admin fee in exchange for the cost of their borrow on the debt (don't forget that finance houses borrow from banks and they borrow from money markets and there is interest mark-up all the way down the line until it reaches the retail consumer where the largest mark-up is applied to reflect the largest default risk).
There is a cost that is the whole funding charge over the lifetime of the debt, plus admin fee, less a small discount for paying 5 years (eg) interest up front.
One way or another, that is paid by the buyer. As the seller, gimmicks like 0% finance are good because they increase your turnover of stock as it allows more people to buy than would otherwise be possible (and that is the bit that is the entire basis for taking in consumer credit risk and the bit that the PH money gods try and tell the world isn't true and get very angry when someone dares to correct their deliberate deceits), it also helps shorten the length of time you are sitting on stock which is quite important as very often you are paying a lend on that stock yourself as you don't actually own it.
The point you make about two retailers having the same price etc is a valid one but the key is that as you know how the financing deal works and its cost and as you know the general way in which high cost retail units such as a jewellers run then you know that the finance cost is something you can play with as a buyer just like you always know the cost to the retail unit to process a purchase on a credit card. Obviously, there is no point in wasting time with chain stores as there is no one there who actually runs the business etc.
And here comes the nub, the reality of the situation, that some take great offence at. First of all, if you have £2k just sitting in your account that you have absolutely no need of and you wish to just swap for a nice bit of jewellery and as pointed out this money is earning nothing then you simply are not going to arse about in a shop buying a credit agreement as well as your bracelet to save just 1%. People simply do not behave like that. Even up in Yorkshire.
In addition you have to consider the rather simple fact that if an individual were one of the totally anomalous consumers who did go against all consumer and retail debt statistics and seek a 1% saving on goods that will plummet in value by what, 10-30% the moment a name is written in a piece of paper then such a person would generally seek out the far greater instance saving of finding an independent who will offer a discount greater than 1% for a cash transaction, or buy a bracelet that already has a name on its papers and thus make an even greater saving. But that type of consumer is not an impulse consumer and the marketing intent behind 0% deals is that they specifically target the impulse consumer.
It's a subject I find of interest as my family are jewellers. In the 70s-80s they were the largest sellers in the UK of Omega and some other brands. I myself am in retail credit and involved in lending. Just from that it is obvious that I am going to be pro consumer debt but it doesn't mean I am not free to dare to question the comical farce that is the 'I have the cash to dispose but I'm going to borrow instead' mantra of the modern Western male consumer. Equifax data alone highlights what a load of b
ks that is. The fact that a few people get angry each time someone dares to question the mantra and starts throwing abuse about (not you btw) really just reinforces the statement.
Am I in the 1% then? I don't want this to come across arsey, as I don't mean it to but... If I can get 0% I would rather spend the 20 minutes it takes to do the paperwork and get 0% and leave the cash in the bank. I've had to pay cash twice for watches, the rest I've ticked and just seen it as the cost of a heavy night out once a month. Everyone is different. Plus I keep vultures like you in a job They also aren't lending at 0 and just taking a small admin fee in exchange for the cost of their borrow on the debt (don't forget that finance houses borrow from banks and they borrow from money markets and there is interest mark-up all the way down the line until it reaches the retail consumer where the largest mark-up is applied to reflect the largest default risk).
There is a cost that is the whole funding charge over the lifetime of the debt, plus admin fee, less a small discount for paying 5 years (eg) interest up front.
One way or another, that is paid by the buyer. As the seller, gimmicks like 0% finance are good because they increase your turnover of stock as it allows more people to buy than would otherwise be possible (and that is the bit that is the entire basis for taking in consumer credit risk and the bit that the PH money gods try and tell the world isn't true and get very angry when someone dares to correct their deliberate deceits), it also helps shorten the length of time you are sitting on stock which is quite important as very often you are paying a lend on that stock yourself as you don't actually own it.
The point you make about two retailers having the same price etc is a valid one but the key is that as you know how the financing deal works and its cost and as you know the general way in which high cost retail units such as a jewellers run then you know that the finance cost is something you can play with as a buyer just like you always know the cost to the retail unit to process a purchase on a credit card. Obviously, there is no point in wasting time with chain stores as there is no one there who actually runs the business etc.
And here comes the nub, the reality of the situation, that some take great offence at. First of all, if you have £2k just sitting in your account that you have absolutely no need of and you wish to just swap for a nice bit of jewellery and as pointed out this money is earning nothing then you simply are not going to arse about in a shop buying a credit agreement as well as your bracelet to save just 1%. People simply do not behave like that. Even up in Yorkshire.
In addition you have to consider the rather simple fact that if an individual were one of the totally anomalous consumers who did go against all consumer and retail debt statistics and seek a 1% saving on goods that will plummet in value by what, 10-30% the moment a name is written in a piece of paper then such a person would generally seek out the far greater instance saving of finding an independent who will offer a discount greater than 1% for a cash transaction, or buy a bracelet that already has a name on its papers and thus make an even greater saving. But that type of consumer is not an impulse consumer and the marketing intent behind 0% deals is that they specifically target the impulse consumer.
It's a subject I find of interest as my family are jewellers. In the 70s-80s they were the largest sellers in the UK of Omega and some other brands. I myself am in retail credit and involved in lending. Just from that it is obvious that I am going to be pro consumer debt but it doesn't mean I am not free to dare to question the comical farce that is the 'I have the cash to dispose but I'm going to borrow instead' mantra of the modern Western male consumer. Equifax data alone highlights what a load of b
ks that is. The fact that a few people get angry each time someone dares to question the mantra and starts throwing abuse about (not you btw) really just reinforces the statement. If a shop can get stock in and put it out instantly then as they are almost always running debt on that stock and the stock, on average, sits around costing money to finance, maintain and insure for a few months then there is money on the table for the type of person who will already to a credit deal to arbitrage an artificial borrow rate against a savings account lend rate.
These commercial outlets know that the same product can be bought cheaper on the web with the only loss being a name already on the paper (something the industry works hard to make out is a very important thing) and they know what the stock prices are, obviously, and their cost to bring in site and maintain. I guess the key is finding the shop or person who can or is incentivised to do the maths.
These commercial outlets know that the same product can be bought cheaper on the web with the only loss being a name already on the paper (something the industry works hard to make out is a very important thing) and they know what the stock prices are, obviously, and their cost to bring in site and maintain. I guess the key is finding the shop or person who can or is incentivised to do the maths.
Edited by DonkeyApple on Sunday 14th February 09:47
BrabusMog said:
Am I in the 1% then? I don't want this to come across arsey, as I don't mean it to but... If I can get 0% I would rather spend the 20 minutes it takes to do the paperwork and get 0% and leave the cash in the bank. I've had to pay cash twice for watches, the rest I've ticked and just seen it as the cost of a heavy night out once a month. Everyone is different. Plus I keep vultures like you in a job
Yup. If it helps, the direct lending business lends to bankers who have spent their bonus before they've earned it, so technically we're parasites on the vultures. But, yes, your situation is anomalous and if it weren't then retail debt wouldn't work as the primary tool in inflating sales revenues, which is obviously exactly what it is for.
Pommygranite said:
I got my Rolex GMT used unworn (basically brand new never worn) and my name was first on all papers because I went through Hackett who's a PH'er on here.
Was 10% less than RRP and so you can get what you want at less than retail.
Look for Dom H on members.
Have used similar, those were the ones I had to pay cash on.Was 10% less than RRP and so you can get what you want at less than retail.
Look for Dom H on members.
BrabusMog said:
Pommygranite said:
I got my Rolex GMT used unworn (basically brand new never worn) and my name was first on all papers because I went through Hackett who's a PH'er on here.
Was 10% less than RRP and so you can get what you want at less than retail.
Look for Dom H on members.
Have used similar, those were the ones I had to pay cash on.Was 10% less than RRP and so you can get what you want at less than retail.
Look for Dom H on members.
BrabusMog said:
Am I in the 1% then? I don't want this to come across arsey, as I don't mean it to but... If I can get 0% I would rather spend the 20 minutes it takes to do the paperwork and get 0% and leave the cash in the bank. I've had to pay cash twice for watches, the rest I've ticked and just seen it as the cost of a heavy night out once a month. Everyone is different. Plus I keep vultures like you in a job
Yup I am the same, in fact it took me about 3 minutes to fill in the online form, after speaking with the sales guy in the store, no discount, no free straps, that was the price even with an offer of folding cash money. Only offer was 0% finance, so to me leaving that money in the TSB 5% account for 4 years is a no brainer. To be honest it was a cracking price for a watch with full B&P serviced a week before by Panerai, pretty much £1000 less than most other UK dealers are selling them for, in fact less than they tend to sell for on TZUK...
GroundEffect said:
I'd never heard of Vacheron...£30k+ on a fking watch?!
Please tell me, beyond it being an 'aspirational' brand, what's the point? Is the mechaninism provide more accurate time than the other premium brands at 1/10th the cost?
Plenty of people (including some people who buy watches like that) would say exactly the same about buying a BMW M3 rather than the cheapest car available. Just because you aren't interested in it doesn't mean that others shouldn't be.king watch?! Please tell me, beyond it being an 'aspirational' brand, what's the point? Is the mechaninism provide more accurate time than the other premium brands at 1/10th the cost?
Pommygranite said:
BrabusMog said:
Pommygranite said:
I got my Rolex GMT used unworn (basically brand new never worn) and my name was first on all papers because I went through Hackett who's a PH'er on here.
Was 10% less than RRP and so you can get what you want at less than retail.
Look for Dom H on members.
Have used similar, those were the ones I had to pay cash on.Was 10% less than RRP and so you can get what you want at less than retail.
Look for Dom H on members.
Jimmy Recard said:
GroundEffect said:
I'd never heard of Vacheron...£30k+ on a fking watch?!
Please tell me, beyond it being an 'aspirational' brand, what's the point? Is the mechaninism provide more accurate time than the other premium brands at 1/10th the cost?
Plenty of people (including some people who buy watches like that) would say exactly the same about buying a BMW M3 rather than the cheapest car available. Just because you aren't interested in it doesn't mean that others shouldn't be.king watch?! Please tell me, beyond it being an 'aspirational' brand, what's the point? Is the mechaninism provide more accurate time than the other premium brands at 1/10th the cost?
For example, it is usually the case that the gold value in melt is only a few thousand and the tiny diamonds are much less. If a watch is then using a standard movement then what is the value?
It's easy to see the base value of the materials and if a movement is handmade then it is easy to see the value there but what if you are just paying an additional £20k for the brand? That makes for an interesting question?
BrabusMog said:
Pommygranite said:
BrabusMog said:
Pommygranite said:
I got my Rolex GMT used unworn (basically brand new never worn) and my name was first on all papers because I went through Hackett who's a PH'er on here.
Was 10% less than RRP and so you can get what you want at less than retail.
Look for Dom H on members.
Have used similar, those were the ones I had to pay cash on.Was 10% less than RRP and so you can get what you want at less than retail.
Look for Dom H on members.
cheeky but fair enough.Can't remember think paid cash.
DonkeyApple said:
Agree but only a silly man doesn't require as to what the inherent value of a luxury item is. So I think the question above is 100% legitimate and an answer from those who know the brand would be of interest to everyone?
For example, it is usually the case that the gold value in melt is only a few thousand and the tiny diamonds are much less. If a watch is then using a standard movement then what is the value?
It's easy to see the base value of the materials and if a movement is handmade then it is easy to see the value there but what if you are just paying an additional £20k for the brand? That makes for an interesting question?
It's an interesting debate (I think it is but it probably isn't) and I quite like musing on it. For example, it is usually the case that the gold value in melt is only a few thousand and the tiny diamonds are much less. If a watch is then using a standard movement then what is the value?
It's easy to see the base value of the materials and if a movement is handmade then it is easy to see the value there but what if you are just paying an additional £20k for the brand? That makes for an interesting question?
If the producer of any goods is to make a profit, then as a basic principle the producer must sell the goods for more than they cost to produce.
In terms of just about any luxury watch, you don't pay for the value of the precious metals+cost of working with them+10% as a margin. The margin is enormous and I suspect it's in the hundreds or thousands in terms of percentage. Some people do even pay tens of thousands of pounds for luxury watches with no precious metals or stones.
With most luxury goods though, the price isn't related to the intrinsic value of the components and work to make it/bring it to market, it's priced at what the market will bear. If there are customers who want that watch more than they want the £30000 (for instance) that it will cost to buy, then its purpose to the maker is fulfilled.
It is also important to remember that many luxury watches can be bought with a hefty discount so arguably they are priced above what the market will bear and negotiation brings them to the level that is realistic.
I've never bought a watch that cost in the tens of thousands but there are some that I certainly would buy.
I'm sure that you're as capable as me of surmising this, but it's just a few of my thoughts!
Vacheron Constantin itself is an old watchmaking company and I would think that most buyers of the brand's watches feel that the cost of the watches is justified by the sense of buying into the history of the brand, the style and the pedigree of it. Whether or not that is a valid feeling becomes moot as it's personal.
Jimmy Recard said:
GroundEffect said:
I'd never heard of Vacheron...£30k+ on a fking watch?!
Please tell me, beyond it being an 'aspirational' brand, what's the point? Is the mechaninism provide more accurate time than the other premium brands at 1/10th the cost?
Plenty of people (including some people who buy watches like that) would say exactly the same about buying a BMW M3 rather than the cheapest car available. Just because you aren't interested in it doesn't mean that others shouldn't be.king watch?! Please tell me, beyond it being an 'aspirational' brand, what's the point? Is the mechaninism provide more accurate time than the other premium brands at 1/10th the cost?
Using my car as an example: it's objectively more fun/exciting to drive a 420HP V8 sports coupe than a Daewoo Matiz so there's justification in the cost. And it's got better NVH, more comfortable, better stereo etc.
With a watch I'm struggling to see the benefits - as I said above, the actual time-keeping element of a £30k watch over a £500 watch (or even £100 watch) will be negligible and at least subjectively many £500 watches look better to me. So my question is: are people buying them purely for the ability to say 'I made it'. If we go back to the car example, you could use brands like Audi where the comparable VW is significantly cheaper and objectively no worse. The rest is all badge.
Maybe I'm just too Scottish to understand, but I'm a Scotsman living in Essex and I see this sort of thing everyday. Essex is home of the showoff.
GroundEffect said:
I was waiting on someone saying that
Using my car as an example: it's objectively more fun/exciting to drive a 420HP V8 sports coupe than a Daewoo Matiz so there's justification in the cost. And it's got better NVH, more comfortable, better stereo etc.
With a watch I'm struggling to see the benefits - as I said above, the actual time-keeping element of a £30k watch over a £500 watch (or even £100 watch) will be negligible and at least subjectively many £500 watches look better to me. So my question is: are people buying them purely for the ability to say 'I made it'. If we go back to the car example, you could use brands like Audi where the comparable VW is significantly cheaper and objectively no worse. The rest is all badge.
Maybe I'm just too Scottish to understand, but I'm a Scotsman living in Essex and I see this sort of thing everyday. Essex is home of the showoff.
I'm about to ramble but I'll try to stay on topic:Using my car as an example: it's objectively more fun/exciting to drive a 420HP V8 sports coupe than a Daewoo Matiz so there's justification in the cost. And it's got better NVH, more comfortable, better stereo etc.
With a watch I'm struggling to see the benefits - as I said above, the actual time-keeping element of a £30k watch over a £500 watch (or even £100 watch) will be negligible and at least subjectively many £500 watches look better to me. So my question is: are people buying them purely for the ability to say 'I made it'. If we go back to the car example, you could use brands like Audi where the comparable VW is significantly cheaper and objectively no worse. The rest is all badge.
Maybe I'm just too Scottish to understand, but I'm a Scotsman living in Essex and I see this sort of thing everyday. Essex is home of the showoff.
Objectively? No it's not. I wouldn't dispute that it's quieter, more refined, more comfortable but there are people who despise driving and only do it because it's the only way to get to the shops or work or wherever they need to go. They wouldn't find it more fun in a BMW M3 - they would be more interested in doing it the cheapest way possible.
But see it from this point of view and it may make more sense that you can compare as with cars:
There are watch enthusiasts who see beauty in things like the finishing of the case - the angles and the edges and the polishing. They look at the watch (movement, case, dial etc) in extraordinarily close detail and derive joy there. If you don't look at watches closely then you wouldn't know it, but there really is similar variation to the variation you see in cars.
Or it may be (depending on the watch) a specific complication that the buyer enjoys - there are some complications in watches that are practically useless but an enthusiast just enjoys the presence of them and the engineering and work that went into designing and implementing them.
I wouldn't spend millions on a painting (for example) but I can absolutely see why someone would. It just doesn't appeal to me.
I think basically that the answer to the question is that the makers cater to peoples tastes, interests and desires. Also, that watch is arguably a piece of jewellery more than a watch. It does have the function of telling the time but it's not the wearer's only option to check the time so it's bought as an item that the buyer simply desires rather than needs. And desire for the object may be the only justification the buyer needs!
GroundEffect said:
I was waiting on someone saying that
Using my car as an example: it's objectively more fun/exciting to drive a 420HP V8 sports coupe than a Daewoo Matiz so there's justification in the cost. And it's got better NVH, more comfortable, better stereo etc.
With a watch I'm struggling to see the benefits - as I said above, the actual time-keeping element of a £30k watch over a £500 watch (or even £100 watch) will be negligible and at least subjectively many £500 watches look better to me. So my question is: are people buying them purely for the ability to say 'I made it'. If we go back to the car example, you could use brands like Audi where the comparable VW is significantly cheaper and objectively no worse. The rest is all badge.
Maybe I'm just too Scottish to understand, but I'm a Scotsman living in Essex and I see this sort of thing everyday. Essex is home of the showoff.
Yes.Using my car as an example: it's objectively more fun/exciting to drive a 420HP V8 sports coupe than a Daewoo Matiz so there's justification in the cost. And it's got better NVH, more comfortable, better stereo etc.
With a watch I'm struggling to see the benefits - as I said above, the actual time-keeping element of a £30k watch over a £500 watch (or even £100 watch) will be negligible and at least subjectively many £500 watches look better to me. So my question is: are people buying them purely for the ability to say 'I made it'. If we go back to the car example, you could use brands like Audi where the comparable VW is significantly cheaper and objectively no worse. The rest is all badge.
Maybe I'm just too Scottish to understand, but I'm a Scotsman living in Essex and I see this sort of thing everyday. Essex is home of the showoff.
As you suggest, a watch is often different to a car as it's usually a luxury good. If you are buying a watch to show off, the value is in how much it costs and hoping others will recognise the brand and know it as an expensive watch. So yes the value (like most luxury goods) is almost entirely with the brand name.
You see it in here all the time, people linking watches to success, saying people that don't like their choice are jealous etc. It's like they can't understand that others don't share the same want to display their wealth to everyone else. So they must be less successful and envyous.
The OP (possibly ironically) can't understand people cheating and climbing the showy wealth tree by using credit or fake goods. They must be trying to show their success but haven't earned the right to be as conspicuous in their consumption as him.
We even see people posting pictures of their luxury watch in front of their luxury car steering wheel badge in some kind of shrine to crassness.
It's basically down to people needing to feel and display status in order to try and get the best partner to mate with.
Edited by el stovey on Tuesday 8th March 08:22
el stovey said:
GroundEffect said:
I was waiting on someone saying that
Using my car as an example: it's objectively more fun/exciting to drive a 420HP V8 sports coupe than a Daewoo Matiz so there's justification in the cost. And it's got better NVH, more comfortable, better stereo etc.
With a watch I'm struggling to see the benefits - as I said above, the actual time-keeping element of a £30k watch over a £500 watch (or even £100 watch) will be negligible and at least subjectively many £500 watches look better to me. So my question is: are people buying them purely for the ability to say 'I made it'. If we go back to the car example, you could use brands like Audi where the comparable VW is significantly cheaper and objectively no worse. The rest is all badge.
Maybe I'm just too Scottish to understand, but I'm a Scotsman living in Essex and I see this sort of thing everyday. Essex is home of the showoff.
Yes.Using my car as an example: it's objectively more fun/exciting to drive a 420HP V8 sports coupe than a Daewoo Matiz so there's justification in the cost. And it's got better NVH, more comfortable, better stereo etc.
With a watch I'm struggling to see the benefits - as I said above, the actual time-keeping element of a £30k watch over a £500 watch (or even £100 watch) will be negligible and at least subjectively many £500 watches look better to me. So my question is: are people buying them purely for the ability to say 'I made it'. If we go back to the car example, you could use brands like Audi where the comparable VW is significantly cheaper and objectively no worse. The rest is all badge.
Maybe I'm just too Scottish to understand, but I'm a Scotsman living in Essex and I see this sort of thing everyday. Essex is home of the showoff.
As you suggest, a watch is often different to a car as it's usually a luxury good. If you are buying a watch to show off, the value is in how much it costs and hoping others will recognise the brand and know it as an expensive watch. So yes the value (like most luxury goods) is almost entirely with the brand name.
You see it in here all the time, people linking watches to success, saying people that don't like their choice are jealous etc. It's like they can't understand that others don't share the same want to display their wealth to everyone else. So they must be less successful and envyous.
The OP (possibly ironically) can't understand people cheating and climbing the showy wealth tree by using credit or fake goods. They must be trying to show their success but haven't earned the right to be as conspicuous in their consumption as him.
We even see people posting pictures of their luxury watch in front of their luxury car steering wheel badge in some kind of shrine to crassness.
It's basically down to people needing to feel and display status in order to try and get the best partner to mate with.
Edited by el stovey on Tuesday 8th March 08:22
One good thing from the occasional bit of credit is that you build up a credit history, I tend to just spend what I earn and dont make large purchases on credit just due to our situation, so the odd Ipad or similar on credit, that gets paid off does give me a credit history in case I need to make that kind of purchase.
Stuff like Ipads on Interest free are a good idea (when they do it) as they dont discount, the purchase is "front loaded" regardless of how you buy one, cash wont get a discount but I would concur that Apple is perhaps the exception, and I dont think they offer it currently.
Huge mark up on watches it seems, my sons mates dad runs a jewellry shop and his brother, only 22 or something sells watches for one of the big watch companies (not Sekonda...) and is driving round in a 991 Turbo.
Stuff like Ipads on Interest free are a good idea (when they do it) as they dont discount, the purchase is "front loaded" regardless of how you buy one, cash wont get a discount but I would concur that Apple is perhaps the exception, and I dont think they offer it currently.
Huge mark up on watches it seems, my sons mates dad runs a jewellry shop and his brother, only 22 or something sells watches for one of the big watch companies (not Sekonda...) and is driving round in a 991 Turbo.
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