Older parents - dealing with stubborn Dads!
Discussion
Bullett said:
My dad was a not so much stubborn as in denial over medical issues. He didn't like doctors or hospitals and that killed him sooner than is should. He, died between Christmas and new year at 78 of complications related to bowel and liver cancer. I live 3+ hours away and he hid how ill he was from me and my brother (who was local) for years.
Stupid old man.
Even on the day day he went into hospital for the last time he told mum not to call me as it "was too far" so when I did find out from my brother later in the late afternoon I'd had half a bottle of wine and had to sober up before leaving. He had passed away before I made it. Still cross with them both about that.
As it turns out his dad and grandad died of the same thing, I didn't know. Told my wife not to plan a lavish 80th for me. He didn't do the poo test all old people are supposed to do that should have given early warnings especially with a family history.
His stubbornness has robbed me of dad and the kids of a grandad and mum of a husband. It also made mum a carer for much of the last year, both my brother and I could have helped more if we had known the magnitude. I also think they are too respectful of doctors/hospitals. The NHS did a brilliant job but neither of them pushed hard the NHS enough to get appointments or other support in a timely manner.
I don't know what I could have done differently but I'd say, make sure they are looking after themselves as much as possible.
Sounds like my dad!Stupid old man.
Even on the day day he went into hospital for the last time he told mum not to call me as it "was too far" so when I did find out from my brother later in the late afternoon I'd had half a bottle of wine and had to sober up before leaving. He had passed away before I made it. Still cross with them both about that.
As it turns out his dad and grandad died of the same thing, I didn't know. Told my wife not to plan a lavish 80th for me. He didn't do the poo test all old people are supposed to do that should have given early warnings especially with a family history.
His stubbornness has robbed me of dad and the kids of a grandad and mum of a husband. It also made mum a carer for much of the last year, both my brother and I could have helped more if we had known the magnitude. I also think they are too respectful of doctors/hospitals. The NHS did a brilliant job but neither of them pushed hard the NHS enough to get appointments or other support in a timely manner.
I don't know what I could have done differently but I'd say, make sure they are looking after themselves as much as possible.
About 5 years ago his doctor gave him a full medical, cholestral through the roof!
Doctor gave him statins and told him to stop smoking, he took no notice and died 3 days before christmas last year, heart attack/stroke.
So bloody frustrating.
You also have to remember that the people currently in their 80's etc were around in WW2 and never gave in under the worst of circumstances. Their reaction is probably 'we beat hitler, old age will be the same'.
The other part of it is probably fear of the future, loss of independence and an expectation that the kids will do for them what they did for their parents.
Unfortunately society has become a lot more mobile and families have become spread out but the expectation is still there.
No easy solution but they have to want the help, without this there is very little you can do except meet their expectations as best you can.
The other part of it is probably fear of the future, loss of independence and an expectation that the kids will do for them what they did for their parents.
Unfortunately society has become a lot more mobile and families have become spread out but the expectation is still there.
No easy solution but they have to want the help, without this there is very little you can do except meet their expectations as best you can.
Just a little update...
The inevitable happened and he fell, at night, in his bedroom. This time he hurt himself so an ambulance took him in and he's been in for over 2 weeks. Dementia is worse and the wastage of his muscles due to poor appetite and lack of use means he cant really get up by himself now. He wont be going home I don't think as the hospital knows he needs greater care than my mum plus care workers that come and go can provide. So a full time care solution is being researched and they want it local to them. He keeps asking when he's coming home to be with 'his lad' and mum (haven't lived there for 30 years). Very sad. And I remain 3 hours away, virtually useless.
Maybe there is little I can do other than 100% being there for my mother and popping up every weekend; guess we all have to accept the situation and just support her in all the ways that we can...until the next stage...
The inevitable happened and he fell, at night, in his bedroom. This time he hurt himself so an ambulance took him in and he's been in for over 2 weeks. Dementia is worse and the wastage of his muscles due to poor appetite and lack of use means he cant really get up by himself now. He wont be going home I don't think as the hospital knows he needs greater care than my mum plus care workers that come and go can provide. So a full time care solution is being researched and they want it local to them. He keeps asking when he's coming home to be with 'his lad' and mum (haven't lived there for 30 years). Very sad. And I remain 3 hours away, virtually useless.
Maybe there is little I can do other than 100% being there for my mother and popping up every weekend; guess we all have to accept the situation and just support her in all the ways that we can...until the next stage...
Ken Figenus said:
AlexC1981 said:
My parents bought my grandparents a bungalow in the late 70s/early 80s. They could not get them to move either! 25 years on, after my grandfather passed away and my grandmother was in her mid-90s she had a couple of falls and had to spend a while in hospital. My mum and uncle had to trick her into a nursing home by saying it was only temporary while she recovered from the fall. All she ever talked about when we visited was when she could go home.
I suspect the same thing is going to happen to your father sadly. Moving closer to him might be the only way to avoid this scenario. Or it might be easier to convince him to move in with you if you have room. Maybe you could get a bigger place or somewhere with an annex?
Hi Alex - I actually have had the plans drawn after the bungalow idea fell through as a 'plan b'. Would love to press 'go'! The issue is the moving itself not the space - he loves seeing 'his' mountains when he wakes up. Their joint wellbeing is more of a concern to me than a view they have seen 5000 times...I suspect the same thing is going to happen to your father sadly. Moving closer to him might be the only way to avoid this scenario. Or it might be easier to convince him to move in with you if you have room. Maybe you could get a bigger place or somewhere with an annex?
I'd worry about what matters to him and your mum more than what matters to you, even if that's their health. I know that sounds awful but in the end, if what defines his quality of life is those mountains, then to what end would he move?
I'd put a gun to my head rather than go back to a nursing home too.
Ken Figenus said:
Just a little update...
The inevitable happened and he fell, at night, in his bedroom. This time he hurt himself so an ambulance took him in and he's been in for over 2 weeks. Dementia is worse and the wastage of his muscles due to poor appetite and lack of use means he cant really get up by himself now. He wont be going home I don't think as the hospital knows he needs greater care than my mum plus care workers that come and go can provide. So a full time care solution is being researched and they want it local to them. He keeps asking when he's coming home to be with 'his lad' and mum (haven't lived there for 30 years). Very sad. And I remain 3 hours away, virtually useless.
Maybe there is little I can do other than 100% being there for my mother and popping up every weekend; guess we all have to accept the situation and just support her in all the ways that we can...until the next stage...
Sorry to hear that. Do keep a little perspective on how happy he is in himself. I've not gone through this with my parents but did go through it with my grandparents and do please take this the way it's intended but it's very easy to get caught up in all the problems because of how they impact you (the late dreaded late night phone calls, the drives to the hospital when it's 3 hours away and so on) when the person involved is mostly oblivious to it.The inevitable happened and he fell, at night, in his bedroom. This time he hurt himself so an ambulance took him in and he's been in for over 2 weeks. Dementia is worse and the wastage of his muscles due to poor appetite and lack of use means he cant really get up by himself now. He wont be going home I don't think as the hospital knows he needs greater care than my mum plus care workers that come and go can provide. So a full time care solution is being researched and they want it local to them. He keeps asking when he's coming home to be with 'his lad' and mum (haven't lived there for 30 years). Very sad. And I remain 3 hours away, virtually useless.
Maybe there is little I can do other than 100% being there for my mother and popping up every weekend; guess we all have to accept the situation and just support her in all the ways that we can...until the next stage...
I saw and went through things with one of my grandparents that drove my mum to despair but from the grandparents point of view they felt they were fine and it was a lot of fuss over nothing.
Ken Figenus said:
Just a little update...
The inevitable happened and he fell, at night, in his bedroom. This time he hurt himself so an ambulance took him in and he's been in for over 2 weeks. Dementia is worse and the wastage of his muscles due to poor appetite and lack of use means he cant really get up by himself now. He wont be going home I don't think as the hospital knows he needs greater care than my mum plus care workers that come and go can provide. So a full time care solution is being researched and they want it local to them. He keeps asking when he's coming home to be with 'his lad' and mum (haven't lived there for 30 years). Very sad. And I remain 3 hours away, virtually useless.
Maybe there is little I can do other than 100% being there for my mother and popping up every weekend; guess we all have to accept the situation and just support her in all the ways that we can...until the next stage...
Ah crap, I'm sorry. The inevitable happened and he fell, at night, in his bedroom. This time he hurt himself so an ambulance took him in and he's been in for over 2 weeks. Dementia is worse and the wastage of his muscles due to poor appetite and lack of use means he cant really get up by himself now. He wont be going home I don't think as the hospital knows he needs greater care than my mum plus care workers that come and go can provide. So a full time care solution is being researched and they want it local to them. He keeps asking when he's coming home to be with 'his lad' and mum (haven't lived there for 30 years). Very sad. And I remain 3 hours away, virtually useless.
Maybe there is little I can do other than 100% being there for my mother and popping up every weekend; guess we all have to accept the situation and just support her in all the ways that we can...until the next stage...
Wish I'd seen this before I commented. There is something called 'intermediate care' which is, basically, an NHS rehab placement to build muscle back up and stuff for physical recovery - it may, if he is motivated, be an option with a view to getting him home with lower care needs. Some intermediate care placements are specially funded within a nursing home, round here (Manchester) they have a whole intermediate care 'home' that's totally focussed on recovery and only has people for a maximum of 6 weeks. Some leave well and back to their previous level of mobility, most won't achieve that but are nonetheless stronger and need less help.
Nominally, it is possible to get full time care for older folk at home, in just the same way as for younger disabled people - but also, if he were granted the local authority maximum, which is something like 4 2-hour visits a day I think but varies, he would have far, far more one-to-one care at home than he'd get at any residential placement. Less passive supervision maybe, but in terms of actual man-hours of one to one care, it's far better. Whether or not that could work will depend mostly on whether he's physically safe in between, which is something an occupational therapist can look at - falls prevention is a big thing.
FlyingMeeces said:
Ah crap, I'm sorry. Wish I'd seen this before I commented.
There is something called 'intermediate care' which is, basically, an NHS rehab placement to build muscle back up and stuff for physical recovery - it may, if he is motivated, be an option with a view to getting him home with lower care needs. Some intermediate care placements are specially funded within a nursing home, round here (Manchester) they have a whole intermediate care 'home' that's totally focussed on recovery and only has people for a maximum of 6 weeks. Some leave well and back to their previous level of mobility, most won't achieve that but are nonetheless stronger and need less help.
Nominally, it is possible to get full time care for older folk at home, in just the same way as for younger disabled people - but also, if he were granted the local authority maximum, which is something like 4 2-hour visits a day I think but varies, he would have far, far more one-to-one care at home than he'd get at any residential placement. Less passive supervision maybe, but in terms of actual man-hours of one to one care, it's far better. Whether or not that could work will depend mostly on whether he's physically safe in between, which is something an occupational therapist can look at - falls prevention is a big thing.
Really glad I posted in getting knowledgeable responses like that Wish I'd seen this before I commented. There is something called 'intermediate care' which is, basically, an NHS rehab placement to build muscle back up and stuff for physical recovery - it may, if he is motivated, be an option with a view to getting him home with lower care needs. Some intermediate care placements are specially funded within a nursing home, round here (Manchester) they have a whole intermediate care 'home' that's totally focussed on recovery and only has people for a maximum of 6 weeks. Some leave well and back to their previous level of mobility, most won't achieve that but are nonetheless stronger and need less help.
Nominally, it is possible to get full time care for older folk at home, in just the same way as for younger disabled people - but also, if he were granted the local authority maximum, which is something like 4 2-hour visits a day I think but varies, he would have far, far more one-to-one care at home than he'd get at any residential placement. Less passive supervision maybe, but in terms of actual man-hours of one to one care, it's far better. Whether or not that could work will depend mostly on whether he's physically safe in between, which is something an occupational therapist can look at - falls prevention is a big thing.
I'll look into that further and take the info with me to the multi team meeting at the hospital where next steps are being decided on Tuesday. On falls prevention he could thread an artic' up a Welsh country lane...but will he use his wheeled walker...??? GRRR!!!Cheers.
I moved back to my home town partly for this reason, though it's not needed yet I'm sure the time will come. The other reason was that my sister still lives near my folks and I was missing seeing her family grow up. I was in a situation where I could move with a job and didnt have a rooted life in another area though.
I saw what my Grandad put my Dad through when his Mum died, some of it deliberate, some of it a bit self pitying and some just how things happened, and we agreed then between us that if he (my Dad) got to that point, we'd have a chat. Assuming no dementia etc. Whether that's how it'll go is something else. It wasnt nice to see him be pulled from pillar to post by his Dad, who didnt really move from either his front room chair or a hospital bed
What I can say though is that's one of only a few times I've ever had such a deep chat with my Dad about something that really important to him. His priorities in life are my Mum, us his kids, and then the grandkids. After that it's the usual saving the world stuff.
I would consider the options you have of being closer to your family and how rooted you are. There might be a middle ground somewhere. Before all that, on a good day, there probably needs to be a man to man conversation about what's important to each of your lives and if there's something you can do for each other. I dont mean a rushed 5 minutes chat about the front page of the Daily Mail and dropping in that he needs to be in a care home and you're paying. I mean when the time is right, there's space for a long chat, and it's an open conversation of how things went with his parents, what you're happy to make sacrifices on and what you're not. I dont know if you've had it or whether you're each just going down your own path and thinking of how it's going to go though
I saw what my Grandad put my Dad through when his Mum died, some of it deliberate, some of it a bit self pitying and some just how things happened, and we agreed then between us that if he (my Dad) got to that point, we'd have a chat. Assuming no dementia etc. Whether that's how it'll go is something else. It wasnt nice to see him be pulled from pillar to post by his Dad, who didnt really move from either his front room chair or a hospital bed
What I can say though is that's one of only a few times I've ever had such a deep chat with my Dad about something that really important to him. His priorities in life are my Mum, us his kids, and then the grandkids. After that it's the usual saving the world stuff.
I would consider the options you have of being closer to your family and how rooted you are. There might be a middle ground somewhere. Before all that, on a good day, there probably needs to be a man to man conversation about what's important to each of your lives and if there's something you can do for each other. I dont mean a rushed 5 minutes chat about the front page of the Daily Mail and dropping in that he needs to be in a care home and you're paying. I mean when the time is right, there's space for a long chat, and it's an open conversation of how things went with his parents, what you're happy to make sacrifices on and what you're not. I dont know if you've had it or whether you're each just going down your own path and thinking of how it's going to go though
Thanks chaps. I get sympathy and sad looks from my mates, but these are the least useful things compared to practical advice and insight from others that have 'been there'. It's clear what he wants - to come home to the house he was born in with its stunning views in Snowdonia and to sit back in his favorite armchair. Mum & me would like nothing more if she can cope assisted with really proper help as outlined above here. Fingers crossed for Tuesday meeting. I also haven't mentioned the spinal mets from the prostate cancer, but might as well if I'm laying it out here, and meds will have to be administered by a nurse only. I keep saying 'circle of life' when my kids cuddle him but its all quite tough. Cheers.
OP I feel your pain.
Practical matters. Your parents are adults and can, between them, make up their minds about what they want to do. You have to let them do that. You’ll end up driving huge mileages to get there to sort out calamities and eventually it will go wrong.
That, sadly, is life.
My old Dad got vascular dementia in his old age, Mum was his carer, until he passed from Pancreatic Cancer. Mum lasted about eight more years until a heart defect started her decline. She went into hospital and from there we simply had to put her into a local home. We just told her it was for recuperation but we all knew it was going to be for a few months or maybe a year. In the end it was just weeks.
I was fortunate in that my sister lived close to Mum and could do a lot for her. My other sister and I put in thousands of miles getting to and from her home about 250 miles away in North Wales.
I was able to make decisions on Mum’s behalf after Dad died as she had given me Power of Attorney. You should look into this. You don’t need it now, but you will.
Whilst your Mum and Dad are of sound mind, however stubborn, you have to let them do their thing. Once the marbles have been lost you have to make the decisions in their best interest.
It’s crap but it is what it is.
Practical matters. Your parents are adults and can, between them, make up their minds about what they want to do. You have to let them do that. You’ll end up driving huge mileages to get there to sort out calamities and eventually it will go wrong.
That, sadly, is life.
My old Dad got vascular dementia in his old age, Mum was his carer, until he passed from Pancreatic Cancer. Mum lasted about eight more years until a heart defect started her decline. She went into hospital and from there we simply had to put her into a local home. We just told her it was for recuperation but we all knew it was going to be for a few months or maybe a year. In the end it was just weeks.
I was fortunate in that my sister lived close to Mum and could do a lot for her. My other sister and I put in thousands of miles getting to and from her home about 250 miles away in North Wales.
I was able to make decisions on Mum’s behalf after Dad died as she had given me Power of Attorney. You should look into this. You don’t need it now, but you will.
Whilst your Mum and Dad are of sound mind, however stubborn, you have to let them do their thing. Once the marbles have been lost you have to make the decisions in their best interest.
It’s crap but it is what it is.
Thanks Don - I have realised that, as you say, allowing things to run their own course with decisions taken only as they become immediately necessary seems to be others' preferred way. This feels a bit passive to me and might limit options but then its not about me and so me & Co will just be there as and when needed
TwigtheWonderkid said:
FlyingMeeces said:
garyhun said:
TwigtheWonderkid said:
garyhun said:
Seeing our parents getting old sucks!
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