Are you well dressed? A PH gentleman thread.
Discussion
DonkeyApple said:
InductionRoar said:
DoubleSix said:
Impasse said:
A fair chunk of the "poor fit" comments aimed at the OP can be attributed to bad posture. Stand up straight!
Been wondering whether to broach this, it's the elephant in the thread.OP, shoulders back ffs or your dead in the water!
The two reasons this has not been done so far is body shape (since stopping the sport that caused the injury I have lost 3 stone so clearly any bespoke clothes made then would be in the bin now) and finance. I know some posters think I am trying to portray a millionaire look but that could not be further from the case - I openly admit to not being able to afford bespoke clothes whilst buying the other items that will always fit me such as watches, cufflinks etc and in the meantime have resorted to buying mass-produced jackets in the sale.
People are quick to judge.
DonkeyApple said:
I think you've stood up to the jibing very well. To me the whole ensemble does look a little northern coach driver but I am not in my 20s.
The only thing I would say is that I wouldn't waste any money on watches or cuff links until I had a jacket that was fitted. Well cut and fitted clothing is far more important than a shiny bracelet. The trade off is that if you go for a fashionable cut then the jacket won't be lasting you a lifetime but if you wear a jacket a lot then that's where the money has to go. No one sees a watch and they are wholly surplus to requirements these days and just decorative like earrings or make up for ugly women but everyone sees the jacket. It really is the one thing to always get right followed by the shirt. Everything else is secondary.
I would say however that bespoke suits have not increased in cost over the years as much as the other items I have bought (which incidentally I would not be able to afford today) so whilst fit of clothing is more important (subjective - but I agree) it is only sensible (in my view) to purchase a bespoke suit once you are happy with the thing it is fitting.The only thing I would say is that I wouldn't waste any money on watches or cuff links until I had a jacket that was fitted. Well cut and fitted clothing is far more important than a shiny bracelet. The trade off is that if you go for a fashionable cut then the jacket won't be lasting you a lifetime but if you wear a jacket a lot then that's where the money has to go. No one sees a watch and they are wholly surplus to requirements these days and just decorative like earrings or make up for ugly women but everyone sees the jacket. It really is the one thing to always get right followed by the shirt. Everything else is secondary.
As I said earlier I have lost 3 stone (nearer 3.5) and my body shape has altered tremendously and will continue to do so until I am happy - at that stage a fitted outfit will be bought.
g3org3y said:
InductionRoar said:
BlackST said:
Michael Portillo sprung to mind when the picture was posted but if you are happy with your 'out there' choice in clothing then why ask what others think?
To get the thread rolling.g3org3y said:
el stovey said:
I don't think inductionroar is at all worried about what he wears, he's just trying to start a thread about clothes and shoes, because he's into them.
I've read a few of his posts about shoes and male styling and always enjoy his input and positivity in the face of generally negative responses.
TBH I'd also like a Styling/fashion/shoes forum in here. There are plenty of othet niche forums in here that do well. I appreciate many people in the lounge have no interest in this stuff at all.
I've read a few of his posts about shoes and male styling and always enjoy his input and positivity in the face of generally negative responses.
TBH I'd also like a Styling/fashion/shoes forum in here. There are plenty of othet niche forums in here that do well. I appreciate many people in the lounge have no interest in this stuff at all.
I would like to claim surprise at some of the rather nasty and personal comments which have been observed here, but lamentably I can't which is a shame.
It has been a lot quieter of late - I assume the angry men(?) have exploded in a fit of rage.
tertius said:
InductionRoar said:
I would say however that bespoke suits have not increased in cost over the years as much as the other items I have bought (which incidentally I would not be able to afford today) so whilst fit of clothing is more important (subjective - but I agree) it is only sensible (in my view) to purchase a bespoke suit once you are happy with the thing it is fitting.
As I said earlier I have lost 3 stone (nearer 3.5) and my body shape has altered tremendously and will continue to do so until I am happy - at that stage a fitted outfit will be bought.
The problem with that is:As I said earlier I have lost 3 stone (nearer 3.5) and my body shape has altered tremendously and will continue to do so until I am happy - at that stage a fitted outfit will be bought.
a) you may be "happy" with your shape, but how do you know you will retain it? and
b) at what point to do you say , "ok, now I'm there"? and
c) everything else you buy in this changing period doesn't fit either!
Finally you seem to be confusing bespoke with made to measure - fully bespoke suits are really expensive, but made to measure or semi-bespoke is actually quite reasonable, and I'd guess you could probably have bought made to measure and had good value out of it compared to what you have been buying.
b) It is a matter of being realistic with yourself and setting achievable targets which I have no doubt I will achieve.
c) That is the issue I have encountered as you see and seemingly jumpers and trousers are the way forward until such time a jacket (bespoke or MTM) is commissioned.
I am not confusing the two and I may well consider the semi-bespoke option - I was using bespoke blanket term much like brogue covers full and semi brogues and most people understand what is meant.
DonkeyApple said:
When I was 22 my father had two work suits made for me as a congratulation for getting my first proper job. 20 years on I still wear them. I am several stone heavier and certainly a different shape but those two suits still fit perfectly because firstly they are made from extremely good quality English fabric and secondly I have had them adjusted a couple of times.
Through my 30s I had several bespoke suits from Gieves made (I would not recommend them these days though. Very expensive and simply not skilled enough. Trading on an old name to milk economic migrants to be frank) and along with a few blazers I have just had them all successfully adjusted as I've developed a bad shoulder which has dropped a little bit.
I've also just had a three piece shooting suit made as I'd just become too irritated by an old jacket that wasn't worth adjusting but didn't fit. I'll only wear the suit half a dozen times a year but it will last me my lifetime.
And that's the point, a properly tailored suit will last a lifetime and can be adjusted as you mature. Bracelets and other jewellery really are surplus to requirements and catagorically secondary.
If your baubles have gone up in value then flog them and use the money to buy proper suits.
I didn't realize "bespoke" suits were infinitely adjustable I must admit and that makes a potential purchase an easier one for me - thank you.Through my 30s I had several bespoke suits from Gieves made (I would not recommend them these days though. Very expensive and simply not skilled enough. Trading on an old name to milk economic migrants to be frank) and along with a few blazers I have just had them all successfully adjusted as I've developed a bad shoulder which has dropped a little bit.
I've also just had a three piece shooting suit made as I'd just become too irritated by an old jacket that wasn't worth adjusting but didn't fit. I'll only wear the suit half a dozen times a year but it will last me my lifetime.
And that's the point, a properly tailored suit will last a lifetime and can be adjusted as you mature. Bracelets and other jewellery really are surplus to requirements and catagorically secondary.
If your baubles have gone up in value then flog them and use the money to buy proper suits.
I have heard the same about Gieves but couldn't the same be said about most companies these days? Shoes for example are rarely made to the same quality as the turn of the century or before.
With regards to "baubles" I seem to recall your posts on the fake watch thread - that certainly put a few people's back up.
DonkeyApple said:
Don't forget that with such an 'in fashion' cut on your jackets you won't be wearing them in 10 years time, a tramp will be. So you don't actually need to worry about middle age spread unless you are buying a classic cut and then a bespoke suit can just be adjusted accordingly, as can a decent made to measure. The latter when buying you must check for sufficient excess fabric. Trendy suits will use the minimum of cloth as they are made to a budget but there's no reason why you cannot instruct the tailor in exactly what you want with a made to measure anyway.
If going for a quality item I would be less likely to go for a "fashion" cut and would be more likely to take the advice of the tailor as to what suits my body shape.Classic fit in my limited experience of cheap (sometimes not so cheap) off the peg suits is a very unflattering fit. I can only assume the phrase was coined to convince portly gentlemen that they are classically proportioned but I accept that classic in the circles to which you are accustomed is likely a different ball game entirely.
DonkeyApple said:
Classic fit is different from classic cut. The latter gently moves with greater fashions so at the moment tends to be quite snug but if you have wide shoulders then an off the beg jacket will need a lot taken in round the waist as the suits are made to fit as many people as possible and statistically, wider shoulders usually come with a big belly.
Having lost faith with Gieves (£4K for what I would call junk. There are better tailors for half as much) I've recently experimented with Henry Herbert and been very pleased with the adjustment work they've just done for me and am having a couple of shirts made, the first fitting in which was good. Unless you are lucky that one of the factory shirt companies happens to fit you and you can buy them with enough discount to make it worth it then having shirts made is key. It is also a nice way to spend a couple of hours drinking coffee and asking questions while you sift through the books choosing a cloth.
I haven't worn a watch in over a decade since they become massive bling bracelets and they all sit in the deposit box with all but one pair of cufflinks, a very plain, modest set of Dunhills that work with everything. But all but two of my suits and all my core shirts are bespoke and I have all bases covered for my lifetime bar a morning suit which I just couldn't justify spending money on as its only worn a couple of times a year.
Footwear is going to be a problem soon as I'm going to run out soon of my original Churches which all must be over 20 years old now and for casual, several original Oliver Sweeney pairs before they also plummeted in quality and simply don't last and are over priced. I suspect I might have a last made and go bespoke there as factory shoe prices have gone so stupid while their quality has fallen dramatically.
Some excellent advice there - thank you.Having lost faith with Gieves (£4K for what I would call junk. There are better tailors for half as much) I've recently experimented with Henry Herbert and been very pleased with the adjustment work they've just done for me and am having a couple of shirts made, the first fitting in which was good. Unless you are lucky that one of the factory shirt companies happens to fit you and you can buy them with enough discount to make it worth it then having shirts made is key. It is also a nice way to spend a couple of hours drinking coffee and asking questions while you sift through the books choosing a cloth.
I haven't worn a watch in over a decade since they become massive bling bracelets and they all sit in the deposit box with all but one pair of cufflinks, a very plain, modest set of Dunhills that work with everything. But all but two of my suits and all my core shirts are bespoke and I have all bases covered for my lifetime bar a morning suit which I just couldn't justify spending money on as its only worn a couple of times a year.
Footwear is going to be a problem soon as I'm going to run out soon of my original Churches which all must be over 20 years old now and for casual, several original Oliver Sweeney pairs before they also plummeted in quality and simply don't last and are over priced. I suspect I might have a last made and go bespoke there as factory shoe prices have gone so stupid while their quality has fallen dramatically.
With regards to footwear bespoke is the money no object option but in my opinion the main reason for going down that route is for quality rather than fit as most people can find a RTW last that fits their feet well which (for me at least)sets the motivation for bespoke shoes compared to suits as less of a priority.
I have heard of bespoke customers requiring two pairs before the last is perfected even with the top end English makers which at a £4K starting price is far from satisfactory to my thinking.
What quality issues have you encountered with factory shoes out of interest? I will likely agree with you but would be interested to hear your findings. I have a few factory made shoes and find the quality to be better than 99% of shoes but for the extra 1% bespoke is the only option.
DonkeyApple said:
Yup. Bespoke shoes aren't going to be cheap but you only really need three pairs and they'll last for ever. A pair of black brogues, a brown pair and a tan pair of Italian style shoes or boots pretty much is all I need.
For me, the problem with factory shoes (including 'handmade' sweat shop footwear) is that I've found the leather to be much lower quality than just a couple of decades ago and you end up with them over stretched in just a few years and they also start cracking regardless of polishing. A proper leather isn't ever going to crack. On top of that, repairing their soles properly is almost impossible due to the cost saving way they are originally put together.
The whole problem with clothing these days is that brands that were once synonymous with craftsmanship and quality have been stripped out, geared up and mass produce just trading off the original name. The majority of traditional firms are just hollow shells of what they once were. But this does mean that some young artisans have been able to set up shop in the old ways and earn a living but they are a bugger to find. It's the same for many goods such as watches, jewellery and handbags. I can buy a bag for my wife and compare it to my mother's of the same design but 40 years older and you can see the difference. Or compare a modern Royal Oak to an early example and the former just looks a clunky beach copy by comparison.
Leather is of a lesser quality across all trades than it used to be (for a few reasons) regardless of budget.For me, the problem with factory shoes (including 'handmade' sweat shop footwear) is that I've found the leather to be much lower quality than just a couple of decades ago and you end up with them over stretched in just a few years and they also start cracking regardless of polishing. A proper leather isn't ever going to crack. On top of that, repairing their soles properly is almost impossible due to the cost saving way they are originally put together.
The whole problem with clothing these days is that brands that were once synonymous with craftsmanship and quality have been stripped out, geared up and mass produce just trading off the original name. The majority of traditional firms are just hollow shells of what they once were. But this does mean that some young artisans have been able to set up shop in the old ways and earn a living but they are a bugger to find. It's the same for many goods such as watches, jewellery and handbags. I can buy a bag for my wife and compare it to my mother's of the same design but 40 years older and you can see the difference. Or compare a modern Royal Oak to an early example and the former just looks a clunky beach copy by comparison.
I remember reading an interview with Tony Gaziano (I don't know whether G&G come under your "handmade sweatshop" umbrella?) and he said that they use the same quality leather in their RTW/MTO shoes as they do with bespoke. I don't know whether this is true but it would be very poor form to publicly lie about such a thing and I know that they disregard a lot of skins on quality control grounds - I assume these must be then sold to the "lower" brands. I can honestly say I have never had any issues with the leather of any of my shoes but they are not given a particularly hard life if and are possibly over maintained. Incidentally, cracking will not be prevented from polishing (and could even exacerbate the problem) as it is generally the polish that cracks rather than the leather and polish does dry the leather out making them much more susceptible to cracking.
John Lobb are generally regarded as using the finest leather (for both RTW and bespoke) as they have the largest budget (Hermes owned) and just buy everything up but to stop other makers having it. Some of their styles are quite clumpy unless you go for their prestige line - I have see some exquisite bespoke examples but I think £6K is the starting point there...
Back in the old days of proper shoemaking there is documented evidence that the John Lobb "factory" on occasion worked (for decoration only) with hand-stitching of 64 stitches per inch!
You try and find a craftsman that can do that today (or a leather that will stand up to it) - nigh on impossible I would say.As regards resoling there are plenty of people who have had their English RTW shoes resoled at the factory and they claim they are as good as new so I wouldn't be overly concerned about that.
As you mentioned Royal Oaks my one was bought about 8 years ago (not the Offshore monster) so is likely of the "clunky beach copy" era but I like it and don't find it clunky but I have never seen a 1970's model in the flesh to compare to. I do prefer the sapphire case back of the new ones however and find them to be made on a much higher level than most other "luxury" watch brands of today.
Tom1312 said:
I have to say I was surprised at how quickly my danite soles wore away with daily wear.
Really? That surprises me. Dainite is generally regarded as the most hardwearing sole.I don't walk far in my shoes so will hopefully never need to resole them but it's good to know they aren't as indestructible as I thought.
Tom1312 said:
Nice.
I'm still trying to decide on what style for my wedding.
Traditional wedding jacket or just a decent 3 piece?
Congrats on the wedding. I'm still trying to decide on what style for my wedding.
Traditional wedding jacket or just a decent 3 piece?
I would personally go with a three piece suit in preference to the traditional wedding jacket - then again I might not be the best person to advise.
Edited by InductionRoar on Sunday 5th June 18:00
DonkeyApple said:
Every working day for twenty years I've walked to the tube station, then walked to the office, then walked around a bit all day, then walked back to the tube station and then walk home. I still have one of the two pairs of Churches I bought when I was 22. Modern ones last about three years and you just can't repair them as the old ones.
Churches were a different quality back in the day. They are owned by the Prada group and very middle of the road now sadly.13m said:
Firstly, Inductionroar, well done for retaining your usual good humour in this thread.
Secondly, I'd echo the query about whether you'll retain the same shape. I'd personally love to invest in some bespoke clothing but my body shape fluctuates too much. Instead I buy reasonable high street and have it tailored. Then if things change I haven't wasted too much money. In the past I have spent a lot of money on bespoke and MTM and changed in shape too much to have it altered (I've actually become smaller, not bigger).
My intention was for a light hearted, friendly and informative thread which, apart from a few poster's contributions has been the case.Secondly, I'd echo the query about whether you'll retain the same shape. I'd personally love to invest in some bespoke clothing but my body shape fluctuates too much. Instead I buy reasonable high street and have it tailored. Then if things change I haven't wasted too much money. In the past I have spent a lot of money on bespoke and MTM and changed in shape too much to have it altered (I've actually become smaller, not bigger).
From what DonkeyApple says there is enough scope for alterations tailored into bespoke so unless I fluctuate massively which is very unlikely so bespoke or semi-bespoke would appear to be the best option.
I haven't been to London for years so just googled tailors close to me and came across this website that seems almost too good to be true - a fully canvassed suit for £1,300.
http://www.kingandallen.co.uk/birmingham-tailors/
A quick browse of their styles shows they are quite long in the body but maybe the customers were..?
BJG1 said:
everything about that outfit is horrendous. Do not wear it and expect anybody to take you seriously.
That particular bird has long since flown but thanks for popping along a week later to give your input. 
Just out of interest aside from the combination in which they are worn what is wrong with ALL of the items in isolation?
If you genuinely think the shoes are horrendous then you are either a troll or a philistine.
The things I have learnt from this thread so far.
- Bespoke is more expensive and worse than it used to be.
- Craftsmanship as a whole is no longer what it was even a few years - let alone a few decades ago.
- Some posters are either keyboard warriors or must get punched quite often if they conduct themselves in such a way in public to complete strangers.
- Some posters are helpful and have genuine experiences and are willing to share them.
- I need to go to a prostitute to get my jacket altered "they are quite good to people like me" - so I've heard.
- The length of my thumbs are somehow disproportionate to the rest of my hand despite my uncanny ability to fit into "off the peg" gloves quite comfortably.
- Duke Nukem posts on Pistonheads.
DuncanM said:
DonkeyApple said:
DuncanM said:
Without meaning to be rude, are you an awkward shape?
One of your posts mentioned putting on a bit of weight, and I find that anything too far out of the norm tends to make clothes buying much trickier to get right.
I whole heartedly agree regarding quality declining over the years, it's a disappointing trend for sure.
That's what has wound me up to be honest. I am actually a very conventional shape. The simple reality is that the tailor has ballsed up an adjustment between the last fitting and delivery and must have known as it looked wrong in its hanger but chose to still pass it over to the courier. No one just casting an eye over the short would have not noticed it wasn't sitting right. Mistakes happen but they shouldn't ever leave the business. One of your posts mentioned putting on a bit of weight, and I find that anything too far out of the norm tends to make clothes buying much trickier to get right.
I whole heartedly agree regarding quality declining over the years, it's a disappointing trend for sure.
I phoned Henry Herbert (as per your earlier recommendation) to enquire about commissioning a bespoke shirt later in the year but may reconsider that particular avenue if even a shirt-maker can't make a shirt properly these days.
Edited by InductionRoar on Saturday 11th June 12:57
BJG1 said:
In isolation, some of the items are ok - you could get away with the blazer with a white shirt, black trousers and black shoes for example.
Your pocket square folding is ridiculous, it looks awful and a bright white square clashes with the outfit.
I don't think philistine means what you think it does. Those shoes are awful, they are horribly show-offy, they make you look like a chav with money, I know the Jeffrey West look is popular here but it's classless and makes you look like an idiot.
A good outfit shouldn't scream "look at me!" yours does.
OK now we have gone from "all" to "some of the items are ok". Your pocket square folding is ridiculous, it looks awful and a bright white square clashes with the outfit.
I don't think philistine means what you think it does. Those shoes are awful, they are horribly show-offy, they make you look like a chav with money, I know the Jeffrey West look is popular here but it's classless and makes you look like an idiot.
A good outfit shouldn't scream "look at me!" yours does.
Philistine means exactly what I think it does.
wiki said:
A philistine person is an individual who is smugly narrow of mind and of conventional morality whose materialistic views and tastes indicate a lack of and indifference to cultural and æsthetic values.[2]
dictionary said:
A person who is hostile or indifferent to culture and the arts:
Shoemaking and design is an art and an integral part of our culture; particularly in Northampton. If you cannot see or appreciate that then I stand by my initial statement - to categorize a shoe designed by one of the most highly acclaimed shoemakers and last designers in the world (Tony Gaziano) as "horrendous" is to me philistinism at its best.Why do they make me look like a chav with money? Do they look chavvy? Do they look expensive?
I agree with a lot of the points raised in this thread by the way and have I have accepted a lot of them. As I say you are coming into the thread quite late on and all of the points you have raised have all been addressed previously.
DanL said:
Ok, at the risk of the inevitable that doesn't fit / boring / what were you thinking brigade, this is me doing smart / casual for a thing a while ago. Not showy, not too many colours - I'd probably go with a white shirt in summer, but something like this would do you for the work event, I reckon.
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