Christians on PH?

[DanL]

desolate said:

Mopey said:

How do you explain the resurrection and the Jewish historian Josephus not disputing it?

How do we explain the resurrection? It's inexplicable.

Or if you think it did happen watch something like the last Sherlock Holmes film were lord blackwood came to life. It's as true as that.

Jesus had a twin?

[daemon]

Mopey said:

How do you explain the resurrection?

Easily. It didnt happen

In the same way it didnt happen to the 1,000 or so Sun God religions that predate Christianity.

Almost all of what Christianity hinges itself on was pulled from religions previous to it.

Heres one of my favourites, Horus, who predates Christianity by several thousand years.

The Egyptian sun god Horus, who predated the Christ character by thousands of years, shares the following in common with Jesus:
Horus was born of the virgin Isis-Meri on December 25th in a cave/manger with his birth being announced by a star in the East and attended by three wise men.
His earthly father was named "Seb" ("Joseph"). Seb is also known as "Geb": "As Horus the Elder he...was believed to be the son of Geb and Nut." Lewis Spence, Ancient Egyptian Myths and Legends, 84.
He was of royal descent.
At age 12, he was a child teacher in the Temple, and at 30, he was baptized, having disappeared for 18 years.
Horus was baptized in the river Eridanus or Iarutana (Jordan) by "Anup the Baptizer" ("John the Baptist"), who was decapitated.
He had 12 disciples, two of whom were his "witnesses" and were named "Anup" and "Aan" (the two "Johns").
He performed miracles, exorcised demons and raised El-Azarus ("El-Osiris"), from the dead.
Horus walked on water.
His personal epithet was "Iusa," the "ever-becoming son" of "Ptah," the "Father." He was thus called "Holy Child."
He delivered a "Sermon on the Mount" and his followers recounted the "Sayings of Iusa."
Horus was transfigured on the Mount.
He was crucified between two thieves, buried for three days in a tomb, and resurrected.
He was also the "Way, the Truth, the Light," "Messiah," "God's Anointed Son," the "Son of Man," the "Good Shepherd," the "Lamb of God," the "Word made flesh," the "Word of Truth," etc.
He was "the Fisher" and was associated with the Fish ("Ichthys"), Lamb and Lion.
He came to fulfill the Law.
Horus was called "the KRST," or "Anointed One."
Like Jesus, "Horus was supposed to reign one thousand years."
Furthermore, inscribed about 3,500 years ago on the walls of the Temple at Luxor were images of the Annunciation, Immaculate Conception, Birth and Adoration of Horus,
with Thoth announcing to the Virgin Isis that she will conceive Horus
with Kneph, the "Holy Ghost," impregnating the virgin
with the infant being attended by three kings, or magi, bearing gifts
In addition, in the catacombs at Rome are pictures of the baby Horus being held by the virgin mother Isis--the original "Madonna and Child."

[stuartmmcfc]

daemon, you appear to be very knowledgable on this subject.
Can you explain your background and sources because we're being asked to accept every thing you say as fact?

[anonymous-user]

stuartmmcfc said:

daemon, you appear to be very knowledgable on this subject.
Can you explain your background and sources because we're being asked to accept every thing you say as fact?

He isn't asking you to believe the stories only that the stories exist.
Spend on hour on Wikipedia as a start and then if you are genuinely interested there are lots of sources listed for more in depth information.

[stuartmmcfc]

I've spent years not hours reading the arguments for and against Christianity and I've come to realise there are pretty convincing arguments out there for both sides. The same "fact" is often used to both support and discredit both sides. Despite this there's no way I could quote things,
deamon seems to have a good background knowledge of this subject and I wondered where he gained it?
I'm sure it wasn't on Wikipedia

Edited by stuartmmcfc on Saturday 2nd July 17:35

[anonymous-user]

stuartmmcfc said:

I've spent years not hours reading the arguments for and against Christianity and I've come to realise there are pretty convincing arguments out there for both sides. The same "fact" is often used to both support and discredit both sides. Despite this there's no way I could quote things,
desolate seems to have a good background knowledge of this subject and I wondered where he gained it?
I'm sure it wasn't on Wikepedia

Brought up as a catholic educated at state catholic primary and secondary schools
Did A levels at a state Catholic 6th form college
Studied philosophy at a (bad) university

Read books and listened to people.

Made my own mind up.

There are no convincing arguments for the existence of God or that the Bible is the ultimate truth.

Those who believe have plenty of fora for discussion with like-minded people. They also get a headstart by being allowed to peddle their myths to kids as some form of life changing moral code.
So they can't complain that they don't get a fair crack of the whip.

Edited by anonymous-user on Saturday 2nd July 17:44

[stuartmmcfc]

Sorry desolate, it was actually daemons background I was interested in, as I asked in the previous post. I put your name by accident in reply to your previous post.
Sorry for the confusion.

[daemon]

stuartmmcfc said:

daemon, you appear to be very knowledgable on this subject.
Can you explain your background and sources because we're being asked to accept every thing you say as fact?

All the information is out there. Its just something i have acquired over the years with reading and searching around.

I do historically have a strong knowledge of the bible though.

Once you scratch the surface there are holes you could drive a bus through.

Even, terms of history, Christianity dates around 2,000 years. Judaism dates maybe 2,000 ish years before that. Lets say 3,000 for the sake of argument.

What happened all of humanity before that? Did God really chose not to worry about them?

Then you have all the other Sun Gods. Mithras, Ra, etc. Theres approx 1,000 of them. Most predate christianity. Theres even the great flood and an ark in many religions.

And then theres the universe. Did god really bring an entire universe into existence over billions of years, pick one galaxy, one tiny sun on the outer edge of that entire galaxy and put humanity on to it? Then watch it evolve for maybe 100,000 years before telling a small backward tribe in quite frankly the arse hole of nowhere that he was the one true god?

Read some Richard Dawkins or Christopher Hitchens or Sam Harris. Or Stephen Hawking. Find those guys on youtube. There are some fascinating debates.

Get a couple of Dawkins books or Sam Harris's books off Amazon as a starter for 10. Watch Hitchens on youtube.

Edited by daemon on Saturday 2nd July 19:16

[daemon]

desolate said:

Brought up as a catholic educated at state catholic primary and secondary schools
Did A levels at a state Catholic 6th form college
Studied philosophy at a (bad) university

Read books and listened to people.

Made my own mind up.

There are no convincing arguments for the existence of God or that the Bible is the ultimate truth.

Those who believe have plenty of fora for discussion with like-minded people. They also get a headstart by being allowed to peddle their myths to kids as some form of life changing moral code.
So they can't complain that they don't get a fair crack of the whip.

Edited by desolate on Saturday 2nd July 17:44

Same as me on the post education side of things. Protestant Presbyterian background in Northern Ireland.

[anonymous-user]

Fair enough

My point still stands that you aren't being asked to believe that other myths pre-existed the Christian myth.

There is endless amounts of evidence and wiki is a good starting point for further reading. Try reading about Buddha, Mithra and Krishna.

Lots of similar tales that pre date Christ.

[daemon]

desolate said:

Fair enough

My point still stands that you aren't being asked to believe that other myths pre-existed the Christian myth.

There is endless amounts of evidence and wiki is a good starting point for further reading. Try reading about Buddha, Mithra and Krishna.

Lots of similar tales that pre date Christ.

+1

[stuartmmcfc]

I read "the god delusion" several years ago. I wasn't impressed tbh.

[anonymous-user]

stuartmmcfc said:

I read "the god delusion" several years ago. I wasn't impressed tbh.

So that's Dawkins put to bed.
All pretty easy really.

[stuartmmcfc]

I wouldn't go that far.
Anyway, let's not waste any more of our precious and finite time on this earth because I really don't think we're going to change our opinions and beliefs arguing on the Internet
Well, that's what I think anyway

[mybrainhurts]

desolate said:

stuartmmcfc said:

I've spent years not hours reading the arguments for and against Christianity and I've come to realise there are pretty convincing arguments out there for both sides. The same "fact" is often used to both support and discredit both sides. Despite this there's no way I could quote things,
desolate seems to have a good background knowledge of this subject and I wondered where he gained it?
I'm sure it wasn't on Wikepedia

Brought up as a catholic educated at state catholic primary and secondary schools
Did A levels at a state Catholic 6th form college
Studied philosophy at a (bad) university

Read books and listened to people.

Made my own mind up.

There are no convincing arguments for the existence of God or that the Bible is the ultimate truth.

Those who believe have plenty of fora for discussion with like-minded people. They also get a headstart by being allowed to peddle their myths to kids as some form of life changing moral code.
So they can't complain that they don't get a fair crack of the whip.

You need to be careful, talking like that on a public forum.

I'd place a little bet that you don't expect the Spanish Inquisition..?

[irish boy]

desolate said:

stuartmmcfc said:

I read "the god delusion" several years ago. I wasn't impressed tbh.

So that's Dawkins put to bed.
All pretty easy really.

The Dawkins delusion by Alister McGrath is also a good read.

[mybrainhurts]

Holy Splash...

Behold...Jesus drives

[Blakewater]

The answer to the question of what Jesus drove was on Top Gear years ago.

Jesus said -“For I did not speak of my own accord” - John 12:49

All the answers are here.

http://www.wwj.org.nz/laughing/laughing.php?id=263...

As far as I'm concerned, people can believe what they want so long as it doesn't harm anyone else, they don't try to force it on anybody and they take responsibility for their own lives rather than sitting back expecting God to sort everything out for them.

I think a huge part of the problem with the image of modern day Christianity is American religious fundamentalists who take the Bible literally and use it to justify their prejudices and horrible behaviour. If anybody challenges them they're patronising like you're stupid for believing in science. A typical example being here.

https://twitter.com/A_M_Perez

This one argues against evolution, says it's a waste of taxpayer money teaching it in schools and at the same time protests against reforms of gun control.

[mybrainhurts]

Blakewater said:

The answer to the question of what Jesus drove was on Top Gear years ago.

Jesus said -“For I did not speak of my own accord” - John 12:49

[jdw100]

Eric Mc said:

daemon said:

Two different Gods. However it suited early Christians to tack their god on to Judaism and make Jesus into the leader foretold in the Old Testament.

I presume you do know Christ was born a Jew - and in fact, was a qualified (or equivalent) Rabbi?

The two religions are historically linked. It wasn't a "choice" made by early Christians.

You are on very dodgy grounds making any claims about Jesus at all.

There are many historic figures where there is much more evidence for their existence, look at say Socrates and Shakespeare, but historians still argue about whether we really know any hard facts about them.

Both of these left major works, there are contemporary accounts ( I.e, not written 200/400 years later) of their actions. However no serious historian can say for definite whether they really existed as the person we believe them to be....

Contrast that to Jesus; no writings, no accounts of him at the time, what we do know was written later and the accounts are very contradictory.

If he was genuinely going round and conducting major miracles - why not more of a record left?

Despite some good evidence you would be misguided to say we really know anything about the two above, but we know even less about Jesus.

And this is where I struggle....how can you know he is the son of God etc etc when there is no real proof about him?

On the basis of the above wouldn't it be foolish without more evidence to believe in him?