Divorcing empty nesters...

[randlemarcus]

AmitG said:

None of my business but I think zarjaz1991 is absolutely right.

None of mine, but I think he's wrong, but that's the fun of PH.

You do what you need to do to try and maintain a semblance of normality with the children. You dont create drama by telling them to sort their own stuff out, until all your stuff is gone, and you are living elsewhere. Then you are free to tell them to change their own lightbulbs, and sort their own computers out. Which is most satisfying the first time, and then you realise you can either have the next 13 years at war, with the usual threats about contact, or you can try and get along without taking responsibility any more, and that's a fine balancing act.

On Mr 1991's side, it's helicoptering, on anyone who has been there, it's trying to avoid the situation in multiple other threads, where the Ex spirals out of control, which is not good, because your child is in their care at least 50% of the time.

[escargot]

randlemarcus said:

AmitG said:

None of my business but I think zarjaz1991 is absolutely right.

None of mine, but I think he's wrong, but that's the fun of PH.

You do what you need to do to try and maintain a semblance of normality with the children. You dont create drama by telling them to sort their own stuff out, until all your stuff is gone, and you are living elsewhere. Then you are free to tell them to change their own lightbulbs, and sort their own computers out. Which is most satisfying the first time, and then you realise you can either have the next 13 years at war, with the usual threats about contact, or you can try and get along without taking responsibility any more, and that's a fine balancing act.

On Mr 1991's side, it's helicoptering, on anyone who has been there, it's trying to avoid the situation in multiple other threads, where the Ex spirals out of control, which is not good, because your child is in their care at least 50% of the time.

I agree 100%.

Having been through similar, I wouldn't judge tonker too harshly; everyone needs somewhere to vent and this semi-anonymous environment is a good place to do so.

[Wings]

zarjaz1991 said:

But you're doing it again.
Whether she changes her life or not is none of your concern any more. It's not your place to be telling her she "needs to make changes to her life". Seriously, this is just going to wind her up no end. She clearly doesn't WANT your advice on how to run her life, so you should keep it to yourself.

Sorry, sounds harsh but...each time you come out with one of these statements defending your position, there's generally a line in it that makes me feel sorry for your wife.
Leave her alone!

^^^^^absolutely agree. It is both cruel to be kind, and kind to be cruel, and Tonker needs to let go off his son, and cut off all relationship with both his son and his ex.

[Matt UK]

Wings said:

^^^^^absolutely agree. It is both cruel to be kind, and kind to be cruel, and Tonker needs to let go off his son, and cut off all relationship with both his son and his ex.

Seriously, or have I missed a whoosh??

If anyone ever told / advised me during my split that I should cut off the relationship with my kids I know where I'd put that advice! Getting things right with / for them was my number 1 priority. And still is to this day.

Each to their own though, you may have a very different perspective to me.

[cayman-black]

Christ what a depressing thread, some people really do suffer through life.
Hope everything works out for you all.

[oldbanger]

escargot said:

agree 100%.

Having been through similar, I wouldn't judge tonker too harshly; everyone needs somewhere to vent and this semi-anonymous environment is a good place to do so.

Absolutely and I certainly wouldn't criticise Tonker. It sounds to me like he's trying to do the level best.

With the powers of armchair psychology, to my mind Tonker comes across a stand up guy who gets things done and looks after his own. The thing is that this tends to attract people who want to be looked after, parented, rather than wanting to be a real partner. The relationship then gets built on him being an "overfunctioner", running around after everyone else, keeping them right, and as much as it's what probably his soon to be wife wants on one level, it's also probably the reason she resents him and fights him so much too. So she's stuck wanting to be her own person, but also needing to reel him in and keep him close, keep the relationship going, by being ineffective enough that he steps in, saves her from her own performance anxieties and carries on getting everything done

I certainly wouldn't advocate dumping her or pushing her away, but if Tonker can tolerate his own anxieties or frustrations about her possibly messing up things that he knows he could do fine, keep being supportive and available, but not get over-involved in things like furniture layouts in her new place, give her just a little space to get herself together, then he may find that she stops pushing back. It might be that this needs to wait until the move is over - only he can make the call on what he's going to do, anyway.

However I personally think that, unless he wants to spend the next 14 years or so popping over to her place to fix stuff, run her finances for her, or be constantly warring with her over how she does things when she has their son, then sooner or later he will need to let go and let her muddle along in her own way. I am not saying cut her off or push her away, absolutely be supportive and available, keep talking with her, but she's not going to respond like an adult, instead of an angst ridden teenager pushing her parent away, unless she gets the opportunity to learn how to take responsibility for herself, and that is the unfortunate crux of it.

[zarjaz1991]

Wings said:

^^^^^absolutely agree. It is both cruel to be kind, and kind to be cruel, and Tonker needs to let go off his son, and cut off all relationship with both his son and his ex.

I have to say I don't think expecting him to cut off all contact with his son is realistic or even desirable. And for that reason neither is cutting off all contact wth his ex partner.

What I'm suggesting is backing off a bit, with the ex partner, for the time being. This is a heated time, and trying to control What she does to the extent portrayed in this thread, is a bad idea.

[mjb1]

escargot said:

randlemarcus said:

AmitG said:

None of my business but I think zarjaz1991 is absolutely right.

None of mine, but I think he's wrong, but that's the fun of PH.

You do what you need to do to try and maintain a semblance of normality with the children. You dont create drama by telling them to sort their own stuff out, until all your stuff is gone, and you are living elsewhere. Then you are free to tell them to change their own lightbulbs, and sort their own computers out. Which is most satisfying the first time, and then you realise you can either have the next 13 years at war, with the usual threats about contact, or you can try and get along without taking responsibility any more, and that's a fine balancing act.

On Mr 1991's side, it's helicoptering, on anyone who has been there, it's trying to avoid the situation in multiple other threads, where the Ex spirals out of control, which is not good, because your child is in their care at least 50% of the time.

I agree 100%.

Having been through similar, I wouldn't judge tonker too harshly; everyone needs somewhere to vent and this semi-anonymous environment is a good place to do so.

Absolutely this. If there's a chance that the mother is going to show any semblance of reasonableness about things, then as an ex husband, you should definitely bite your tongue and take it. The alternative is that you never see your kids again and unfortunately the system makes that not difficult for the mother to achieve. Tonker's ex is clearly unstable and on the verge of a complete breakdown, when Tonker is out of the picture, she'll end up taking her frustrations out on the kid instead.

For the last five years, one of my friends has been fortnightly swapping his kids with his ex on a petrol station forecourt, a bit like a hostage exchange. That's not of the father's doing, but you can only imagine what that's doing to the kids' well being?

Wings said:

... Tonker needs to let go off his son, and cut off all relationship with both his son and his ex.

WTF? Even our current one sided, mother biased, legal system doesn't come to that conclusion. Kids need fathers just as much as mothers. Even if Tonker's take on it is only half true, he's at least an equal parent in terms of raising the boy, not like he's a career obsessed workaholic who's main contribution to raising the kids is solely financial. To become a 'one night, every other weekend' father would be a travesty, never mind your suggestion that he abandons his son completely.

Being one of your typical powerfully built company director PH types (ahem), allows me great flexibility with my work, and that means I can take an active role in my kids' everyday life. When we were still together, the kids spent as much time with me as they did with mum - I did all the school runs, shopping trips, at least half of the domestic chores. Since we split, they spend nearly half the week with me, and I fit my work around it. Sure, that means turning work away sometimes/not actively canvassing for more, but the flipside is that it means my kids have a meaningful and balanced relationship with both parents.

[xjay1337]

I don't think you're doing anything wrong mate.

It's never easy. You can never please all of the people all of the time.

[WinstonWolf]

Wings said:

^^^^^absolutely agree. It is both cruel to be kind, and kind to be cruel, and Tonker needs to let go off his son, and cut off all relationship with both his son and his ex.

Utter tosh. I've been a single parent to my kids 50% of the time for the last fifteen years. I had to bite my tongue in regards to the ex but it's paid off in spades. My kids still have two parents but they don't live together. Because we both put the kids first they're both well adjusted and happy.

Kids didn't ask their parents to divorce, cutting either out is wrong.

[oldbanger]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

I wouldn't say you're getting it wrong, personally. I know I've been chipping in my 2p worth, though. I am hoping to help, not hinder. Unsolicited help is always a difficult thing. And yes, and yes, the former for the 2nd time round, so perhaps not best placed to offer advice

My ex from my first marriage was still contacting me for more than 5 years after the divorce (I think it was closer to 10), to tell me their problems etc, and this was without kids.

Edited by oldbanger on Sunday 19th March 11:56

[mr_spock]

I'm behind Tonker 100%. It's a no-win.. if he backs off and just watches while she falls apart, he's a bad guy and his son suffers. If he offers to help and she rejects it, he's a bad guy for being controlling. If he hovers around the edge of the problem, tries to help and support a bit but not too much, it will be not enough/too much/wrong time.

So trying to absorb the aggression/mental/angst acts as a heat sink which protects his son. It's just what works at the time. Just accept the situation, get it over with and move on.

I was talking to a divorced friend last night who's ex still expects him to help sort out her problems. After 15+ years he's now mostly able to disconnect from this, but it's still hard. The only suggestion I would make to Tonker is to not get sucked in to being the support for his ex when she's gone. You may just have to let her fall down to learn to pick herself up.

[singlecoil]

oldbanger said:

Absolutely and I certainly wouldn't criticise Tonker. It sounds to me like he's trying to do the level best.

With the powers of armchair psychology, to my mind Tonker comes across a stand up guy who gets things done and looks after his own. The thing is that this tends to attract people who want to be looked after, parented, rather than wanting to be a real partner. The relationship then gets built on him being an "overfunctioner", running around after everyone else, keeping them right, and as much as it's what probably his soon to be wife wants on one level, it's also probably the reason she resents him and fights him so much too. So she's stuck wanting to be her own person, but also needing to reel him in and keep him close, keep the relationship going, by being ineffective enough that he steps in, saves her from her own performance anxieties and carries on getting everything done

I certainly wouldn't advocate dumping her or pushing her away, but if Tonker can tolerate his own anxieties or frustrations about her possibly messing up things that he knows he could do fine, keep being supportive and available, but not get over-involved in things like furniture layouts in her new place, give her just a little space to get herself together, then he may find that she stops pushing back. It might be that this needs to wait until the move is over - only he can make the call on what he's going to do, anyway.

However I personally think that, unless he wants to spend the next 14 years or so popping over to her place to fix stuff, run her finances for her, or be constantly warring with her over how she does things when she has their son, then sooner or later he will need to let go and let her muddle along in her own way. I am not saying cut her off or push her away, absolutely be supportive and available, keep talking with her, but she's not going to respond like an adult, instead of an angst ridden teenager pushing her parent away, unless she gets the opportunity to learn how to take responsibility for herself, and that is the unfortunate crux of it.

Some very very good stuff there.

[Robertj21a]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Tonker,

Most of us on here fully understand what you're doing, and why. Many of us seem to have been in very similar situations. It's true that you come over as a bit too involved/directing/assertive at times but that's you and your wife will know that - I'd agree with others that this is where you need to hold back more once the move has taken place. As for needing to 'let go of his son', I can only assume the poster is drunk, or never had children.

Just keep plodding on as you are - not long to go.

[zarjaz1991]

This thread and others like it certainly do help to validate my own personal stance - don't ever have children!

Away from all the benefits of being childless, you have the added bonus that if your relationship goes titsup.com, you don't have to factor in "welfare of the children" or stress about gaining "access" to them one weekend a year. You can just walk away without a care (other than handing over your house and all your worldly possessions, and renting a flat above a chip shop, obviously).

Probably for another thread though.

[PAUL500]

Tonker, serious question.

The day after the house is sold, you are in your place she is in hers, what level of contact are you proposing other than collection/delivery of your son?

I think you are going to struggle to keep away.

With regards the cutting ties with children thing, that point was made to me many years go by a divorcing mate. His ex had an affair, kicked him out of the house, then used access to his son as a total form of control.

In the end he sat with his son (6) and explained that dad was going away for a bit, they could chat on the phone anytime but it may be a little while before they would be able to see each other again.

At the time I thought he was being very harsh but kept quiet as I had never been in his situation.

Within a month his ex had backed right off, as she realised he meant business, contact resumed and she never tried to hold him to ransom again.

Many years later when I was in his situation myself I remembered that conversation and finally realised he had been at breaking point, as was I at that time. I had to initiate the same thing, and followed his process. My ex backed off within a fortnight and again never tried that tactic again. I think maybe the poster was alluding to such a scenario

[zarjaz1991]

PAUL500 said:

In the end he sat with his son (6) and explained that dad was going away for a bit, they could chat on the phone anytime but it may be a little while before they would be able to see each other again.

I have to say, even as someone who doesn't have and doesn't want children, that line is making me well up.

Whilst I can see the merit in the idea and the long term benefit, if I had a child I could never, ever say that to them without completely breaking down myself.
I would suggest it's a very tough and hard man who can. I'm not saying such people don't exist, but my goodness that'd be a tough one.

[oldbanger]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

That's a good question. Only you ultimately can tell where the line can be drawn. Thinking about it, stuff you'd readily do for a friend or family member if asked, like help them move heavy items, is probably on the OK to do side of the line. The kind of thing that is definitely over the line include fairly intrusive things like job hunting on behalf of someone else who is unemployed, especially if it involves drafting the application forms ready too (true story), or trying to plan how they set up their own place when you split. Even if this kind of help actually gets requested, and isn't unsolicited, it's going to be counterproductive. A lot of other unsolicited advice and assistance might fall into this category too.

Sometimes what people really need is empathy and a bit of moral support, to get them to pick up things at their end. e.g. when you see them struggling with something that isn't life or death critical, it might be a good time to put aside the need to step in right away, swallow the guilt, and instead let it go and say something like "You know I can see this is a huge job and it's stressing you out, but I can also see that you're going to get it sorted, just like you did x". ... maybe followed up with "How about I get out from under your feet? If you find you need a second pair of hands, I'll be back in a couple of hours"

Of course, this might all be bks, but I wish you all the best anyway, however you play it in the end.

[kwaka jack]

zarjaz1991 said:

This thread and others like it certainly do help to validate my own personal stance - don't ever have children!


.

Same here, Everytime I read them its reinforced more and more never to have them. Between the other half and myself we know of a few couples who've separated because of the stresses associated with parenthood.

[grumbledoak]

Don't draw the wrong conclusion. Children are brilliant. It's adults that aren't.

tonker - keep putting your son first. Grind through the rest of it. You come out eventually.