Issue with missing purchase from Amazon - advice required.

[poing]

Cotty said:

The definition of possession is "the state of having, owning, or controlling something". His bank will be able to show that funds were transferred from his account to the company he purchased the TV from. They would have issued a receipt confirming the purchase, he now owns that TV.

If he owns something and it is stolen, he is well within his rights to report the theft of his property. I would gladly argue that point with an underwriter and have the claim settled.

I can purchase anything I like, it doesn't actually mean I own it. Proof of purchase is not proof of ownership. If I buy a car for my mother it wouldn't be me calling the police if it gets stolen. I can prove that the funds left my account but so what?

Regardless, please explain what you think 101 would do about it? I've called them twice in the past and they have been less than useful and borderline rude. I dread to think how they'd respond to someone complaining that a delivery hadn't turned up.

[Cotty]

Pachydermus said:

I'll just leave THIS here.

You can leave it where you like.
"If your item wasn't delivered to the location you agreed (eg it was left with your neighbour without your consent), it's the seller's legal responsibility to sort out the issue.

If the item doesn't turn up, you’re legally entitled to a replacement or refund".

The problem in this scenario is the seller is saying they delivered to the correct location and the owner received his goods. They have tracking records to prove this. That is the discussion someone has to have to have with the seller. The seller appears to be complying but require some assistance from the customer, which when it is not forthcoming creates an issue.

Personally I believe the claim would be covered but the customer needs to assist the sender in their investigations

[Pachydermus]

Cotty said:

You can leave it where you like.
"If your item wasn't delivered to the location you agreed (eg it was left with your neighbour without your consent), it's the seller's legal responsibility to sort out the issue.

If the item doesn't turn up, you’re legally entitled to a replacement or refund".

The problem in this scenario is the seller is saying they delivered to the correct location and the owner received his goods. They have tracking records to prove this. That is the discussion someone has to have to have with the seller. The seller appears to be complying but require some assistance from the customer, which when it is not forthcoming creates an issue.

Personally I believe the claim would be covered but the customer needs to assist the sender in their investigations

except, apparently, the tracking records show the parcel was delivered in a different town. If the OP says it wasn't delivered then it wasn't delivered unless Amazon can prove otherwise which for whatever reason they're unwilling to do without the OP jumping through hoops for them which suggests there's far more to this than we're being told but that's a whole other story.

[Cotty]

poing said:

I can purchase anything I like, it doesn't actually mean I own it. Proof of purchase is not proof of ownership.

It kind of is, if you buy something it yours, you own it.

poing said:

If I buy a car for my mother it wouldn't be me calling the police if it gets stolen. I can prove that the funds left my account but so what?

If you buy something and give it to someone else then they own it.

poing said:

Regardless, please explain what you think 101 would do about it? I've called them twice in the past and they have been less than useful and borderline rude. I dread to think how they'd respond to someone complaining that a delivery hadn't turned up.

I don't know what 101 is

[Cotty]

Pachydermus said:

except, apparently, the tracking records show the parcel was delivered in a different town.

Nail and head. Proof the item was not delivered to the OP refund or replacement.

[poing]

Cotty said:

I don't know what 101 is

The non emergency police number.

Cotty said:

Pachydermus said:

except, apparently, the tracking records show the parcel was delivered in a different town.

Nail and head. Proof the item was not delivered to the OP refund or replacement.

Yet Amazon still want him to call the police to say it was stolen.

Edited by poing on Friday 26th August 22:05

[Sheepshanks]

Cotty said:

poing said:

If I buy a car for my mother it wouldn't be me calling the police if it gets stolen. I can prove that the funds left my account but so what?

If you buy something and give it to someone else then they own it.

...I can't begin to imagine how many disputes there must be over who owns the car in those circumstances if the gift is not properly documented, as it often isn't. I've heard of several amongst people I know, including a Dad's new wife who tried to take the car he'd given to his daughter off her.

[Cotty]

poing said:

Yet Amazon still want him to call the police to say it was stolen.

People dealing with this issue may be constrained by the rules and regulations their company impose upon them. We may not agree with them but in order to get a resolution, compliance might be the best way. If the OP wants to kick off and be an ass so be it. If it was me I would jump through a hoop or two and get a resolution. as I do for my clients

Edited by Cotty on Friday 26th August 22:17

[All that jazz]

You'll get nowhere in resolving this unless you give them what they want, ie. the ID they're requesting. For whatever reason they've flagged your account as suspicious which is why no-one will talk you because they think you're a scammer and until you provide them with ID nothing will change. Assuming everything you've said here is correct and you're not just giving us half the story, eg. you have history with Amazon for this sort of thing, then I sympathise with your predicament and personally I wouldn't be rolling over and sending them my ID either, especially when legally they have no right to it. However you then become trapped in the "computer says no" loop and while you may get your money back through Amex, Amazon will quickly delete your account and blacklist you from starting another unless you go to extremes by using an alternative ID and different address so as to not provide any link to your current ID and home address.

Up to you whether you want to "stick" it to them and play hardball and ultimately be blocked from purchasing from Amazon again, or whether you cave in and play by their rules, resolve the issue and carry on buying as normal. Those are your only 2 choices.

[poing]

Cotty said:

poing said:

Yet Amazon still want him to call the police to say it was stolen.

People dealing with this issue may be constrained by the rules and regulations their company impose upon them. We may not agree with them but in order to get a resolution, compliance might be the best way. If the OP wants to kick off and be an ass so be it. If it was me I would jump through a hoop or two and get a resolution. as I do for my clients

I agree but the point I was trying to make is that the police won't take it seriously and won't allow him to report a crime.

One of the times I called 101 to report a crime I was simply told "What do you expect us to do about it?"
It was a small car, Clio I think, that had 6 children in the back seats. I could give them make, model and registration number. We were at a Tesco petrol station so they could get CCTV if they wanted. They were not in the slightest bit interested so they really won't care about a TV not turning up from Amazon.

[Cotty]

poing said:

I agree but the point I was trying to make is that the police won't take it seriously and won't allow him to report a crime.

It does not matter whether they take is seriously or not. The person dealing with the claim just needs the crime number.

I don't have to agree or disagree with the procedures the person has to deal with. My job is to get the claim paid.

[GCH]

shopper150 said:

Fair point. But I'm note sure how clear the Amex process will be.

Amex will (usually very quickly) ask you for evidence of why you have instigated the chargeback..for example in the case of overcharge by hotels, send in your bill etc - and they then assess it, and they will contact the merchant for their side of the story.
In your case you would send them a copy of the order, a screenshot of the delivery report online stating the time of delivery, and a copy of the CCTV footage proving no delivery was made at that time.

I have never had a chargeback refused - amex go above & beyond to help in my experience, and I can guarantee that you will hear from Amazon - either directly or via amex - once the chargeback has been done. Having money clawed back usually gets a merchants attention...

Just do it now and quit going round in circles.

[shopper150]

All that jazz said:

You'll get nowhere in resolving this unless you give them what they want, ie. the ID they're requesting. For whatever reason they've flagged your account as suspicious which is why no-one will talk you because they think you're a scammer and until you provide them with ID nothing will change. Assuming everything you've said here is correct and you're not just giving us half the story, eg. you have history with Amazon for this sort of thing, then I sympathise with your predicament and personally I wouldn't be rolling over and sending them my ID either, especially when legally they have no right to it. However you then become trapped in the "computer says no" loop and while you may get your money back through Amex, Amazon will quickly delete your account and blacklist you from starting another unless you go to extremes by using an alternative ID and different address so as to not provide any link to your current ID and home address.

Up to you whether you want to "stick" it to them and play hardball and ultimately be blocked from purchasing from Amazon again, or whether you cave in and play by their rules, resolve the issue and carry on buying as normal. Those are your only 2 choices.

Thanks for the level headed response. They've annoyed me by not giving me any proof of delivery, e.g. Signature, GPS location, photo of where it was delivered etc. And in return for nothing they want my ID and police reoport.
Anyway, I'll have a think about whether to jump through their hoops.

[Gareth79]

I'm wondering if the shipping address was changed within Hermes' system somebody? (either before or after a delivery attempt, possibly mistakenly). I have managed to get a mistaken TNT delivery changed before the first attempt this way after the sender refused (and in a way which confused their depot!). If Amazon think somebody dodgy has happened as mentioned above they will be looking to weed out any scammer activity before shipping a second TV.

On the general liability - it's my understanding that for regular mail order where the shipping is arranged for by the seller, the risk is entirely with the seller until the buyer receives the goods? If it was incorrectly delivered it's the seller's problem to sort out, obviously the buyer must assist where possible.

[All that jazz]

GCH said:

In your case you would send them a copy of the order, a screenshot of the delivery report online stating the time of delivery, and a copy of the CCTV footage proving no delivery was made at that time.

The CCTV footage proves absolutely nothing. Amazon could argue that it was taken from a friend's house or even that the time and date stamp on the footage/files has been altered, both of which are easy to do for someone clued up on such matters and certainly worth doing if you were on the scam for an 800 quid telly.

[Sheepshanks]

shopper150 said:

And in return for nothing they want my ID and police reoport.

To be fair, if they refund you they'll be down £800.

shopper150 said:

Anyway, I'll have a think about whether to jump through their hoops.

You're not prepared to do anything to resolve this and so neither are Amazon who obviously think you're telling porkies. You've already instigated a chargeback so don't bother doing anything now, just wait for the chargeback to resolve itself.

I don't know why the thread is still running.

[motco]

All that jazz said:

The CCTV footage proves absolutely nothing. Amazon could argue that it was taken from a friend's house or even that the time and date stamp on the footage/files has been altered, both of which are easy to do for someone clued up on such matters and certainly worth doing if you were on the scam for an 800 quid telly.

It's useful but potentially capable of being tampered with, certainly. But surely it is not incumbent upon the buyer to show whether the item was or was not delivered, but it is the responsibility of the vendor to prove incontravertibly that it was!

[All that jazz]

motco said:

All that jazz said:

The CCTV footage proves absolutely nothing. Amazon could argue that it was taken from a friend's house or even that the time and date stamp on the footage/files has been altered, both of which are easy to do for someone clued up on such matters and certainly worth doing if you were on the scam for an 800 quid telly.

It's useful but potentially capable of being tampered with, certainly. But surely it is not incumbent upon the buyer to show whether the item was or was not delivered, but it is the responsibility of the vendor to prove incontravertibly that it was!

Absolutely. But Amazon are demanding he play by their rules first and he isn't going to change that. It's pretty much guaranteed that he'll win his Amex claim and would also win a MCOL claim in court too based on the evidence stated in this thread, but it will be at the cost of losing his Amazon account unless the person who deals with the Amex claim has some noggin. In fact he could potentially be bringing more hassle upon himself due to the name mismatch between his Amazon account and Amex card if they really wanted to be awkward.

[shopper150]

All that jazz said:

Absolutely. But Amazon are demanding he play by their rules first and he isn't going to change that. It's pretty much guaranteed that he'll win his Amex claim and would also win a MCOL claim in court too based on the evidence stated in this thread, but it will be at the cost of losing his Amazon account unless the person who deals with the Amex claim has some noggin. In fact he could potentially be bringing more hassle upon himself due to the name mismatch between his Amazon account and Amex card if they really wanted to be awkward.

This is the email from Amazon:

We’re sorry to hear that you haven’t received your item from order #203-

We have fully investigated this matter with the carrier. Based on the results of our investigation, we won’t be able to provide a replacement/refund for this order at this time as the item was delivered.

If you believe the item has been stolen you may wish to contact your local police, if necessary, in order to pursue this matter further. If the issue isn't resolved after contacting local police please contact us again with the following information:

-Police Crime Report Number.
-Details of the station where the incident was reported.
-Name of the investigating officer.

So what they are actually saying is that 'if' I believe it has been stolen, I may wish to contact the local police.
So they are forcing me to tell the police that I believe it's stolen (a lie). I have no evidence to say it's been stolen. They won't provide a proof of delivery (which is nearly always a signature).
If I don't lie to the Police, they won't help.

Edited by shopper150 on Saturday 27th August 10:20

[Oakey]

Cotty said:

It does not matter whether they take is seriously or not. The person dealing with the claim just needs the crime number.

I don't have to agree or disagree with the procedures the person has to deal with. My job is to get the claim paid.

He won't get a crime number because as far as the police are concerned this is a civil matter. His delivery never turned up, where's the crime? He has proof it was delivered elsewhere but they won't tell him to who or where. Until someone, either Amazon or the courier, establishes that the item was diverted elsewhere and not mistakenly delivered to the wrong address then how do they know it's stolen?